Planning a build: Operation Daily Driver

[ProTouring442]

Originally Posted by Build-It-Break-it

A BMW wagon with an Ls would be sweet. Also an old Volvo wagon or 4 door with an LS swap.

Way too much work to get a reasonably fun suspension under the Volvo, plus between the price of the car and the cost of adding things like A/C, the cost would be significantly more. I can pick up a rust free LTD for $1,000-$2,000. I don't think you could come close to that for the old Volvo, and it would likely have rust. Also, the LTD will have A/C, rear window defrost, and will likely come equipped with tilt, power windows, and power locks. Finally, all the Mustang stuff basically bolts in.

[Vegas69]

I can't imagine putting this amount of effort and resources into an LTD. The platform ultimately dictates the value down the road. I sell everything and I don't like to lose money, so that matters to me.

[DBasher]

Originally Posted by ProTouring442

Way too much work to get a reasonably fun suspension under the Volvo, plus between the price of the car and the cost of adding things like A/C, the cost would be significantly more. I can pick up a rust free LTD for $1,000-$2,000. I don't think you could come close to that for the old Volvo, and it would likely have rust. Also, the LTD will have A/C, rear window defrost, and will likely come equipped with tilt, power windows, and power locks. Finally, all the Mustang stuff basically bolts in.

Early, N/A CTS-V...Done.
Everything you're looking for, other than a LTD body....that people will think is a Fairmont.

[ProTouring442]

Originally Posted by DBasher

Early, N/A CTS-V...Done.
Everything you're looking for, other than a LTD body....that people will think is a Fairmont.

And so damned integrated that when the lane change warning goes out, the power seats stop working. No thank you.

[ProTouring442]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

I can't imagine putting this amount of effort and resources into an LTD. The platform ultimately dictates the value down the road. I sell everything and I don't like to lose money, so that matters to me.

You have a good point, here. But I'm building a four-door, park anywhere, but still have fun when I drive 2K miles to New Mexico kind of ride. Yeah, I'll lose money when I sell it. Then again, I'l lose a whole lot less than buying a newer car and selling it ten years from now. Plus, I'm starting with a damned cheap car to begin with.

Besides, we're not exactly talking a high-dollar build here. I bet I can do pretty much everything I want for $10K, $15K tops.

[DBasher]

Originally Posted by ProTouring442

And so damned integrated that when the lane change warning goes out, the power seats stop working. No thank you.

You asked, I gave feedback. Good luck with the Granada build

[FETorino]

Originally Posted by ProTouring442

You have a good point, here. But I'm building a four-door, park anywhere, but still have fun when I drive 2K miles to New Mexico kind of ride. Yeah, I'll lose money when I sell it. Then again, I'l lose a whole lot less than buying a newer car and selling it ten years from now. Plus, I'm starting with a damned cheap car to begin with.

Besides, we're not exactly talking a high-dollar build here. I bet I can do pretty much everything I want for $10K, $15K tops.

Double the estimate on any build and you may get close. Even on this one.

Originally Posted by DBasher

You asked, I gave feedback. Good luck with the Granada build

The reason that Granada LTD is so cheap is because they are fugly and the vast majority of people would gladly drop them off at the crusher.

So you should not be surprised that everyone is trying to talk you out of throwing your money down the toilet.

It sounds to me like you should start shopping for another early 90s BMW. Those are great drivers cars and there is no way you will replicate the feel of one of those for under $15k even if you start with a throwaway car.

There is a 62 Comet wagon 5 lug car with a 302 and a 5 speed for sale on LA craigslist for $11k. For another $4k it would get you closer to that BMW than the Granada and have some resale value.

[/IMG]

[Vegas69]

I was thinking the same thing. They are dirt cheap because the demand is not there.

[ProTouring442]

Originally Posted by FETorino

Double the estimate on any build and you may get close. Even on this one.

Maybe, though I came in only a few grand over budget on my '89 Grand Wagoneer build (due to choosing a Gen IV over a Gen II engine). But let's say it $25K. That's still pretty damned cheap for a well running, good handling, automobile.

Originally Posted by FETorino

The reason that Granada LTD is so cheap is because they are fugly and the vast majority of people would gladly drop them off at the crusher.

Yes... and no.

First, I'll fully agree the Fox-body Granada is butt ugly. Fortunately, there isn't a lot that's shared between the poorly received and short-lived Fox-Granada.

As for your second assertion, why should I care what other people would do with a Fox LTD? Lot's of other people wouldn't touch a Fox-Mustang. They've become the backyard bastard children of trailer parks. The nice one's are still--well--nice. I even had one (an asc/McLaren). Loved the thing.

Even '60s Chevelle 2-doors were once "throwaway" cars, and only around ten or fifteen years ago you could pick up a '64-'72 GM A-body 4-door for next to nothing. Will the Fox-Mustang/LTD ever be collectable? Probably not. Then again, neither is a '70 Nova 4-door.

Originally Posted by FETorino

So you should not be surprised that everyone is trying to talk you out of throwing your money down the toilet.

I appreciate your concern for my fiscal responsibility, but at after fifty years on the planet, I figure I'm allowed to throw my money in the toilet. At least I'll be throwing a lot less of it in the toilet by not starting with a BMW or older GM/Ford/Chrysler product.

Originally Posted by FETorino

It sounds to me like you should start shopping for another early 90s BMW. Those are great drivers cars and there is no way you will replicate the feel of one of those for under $15k even if you start with a throwaway car.

I've owned a '93 M5, and I've owned an '87 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe. Except for cheap interior plastics and the tendency for the solid axle to skip around like--well--a solid axle, the two cars were fairly comparable. Both were fairly quiet, both went around corners very well, both were nice and comfortable. The BMW made a lot nicer noises when the pedal went to the floor (the Thunderbird sounded like a cement mixer), but the 'Bird was saddled with a pretty agricultural engine.

Originally Posted by FETorino

There is a 62 Comet wagon 5 lug car with a 302 and a 5 speed for sale on LA craigslist for $11k. For another $4k it would get you closer to that BMW than the Granada and have some resale value.

Wait, you actually think that buggy-sprung wagon will be "closer" to the handling and feel of a BMW than a Fox-Mustang--erm--LTD with IRS? With aftermarket A/C, custom IRS installation, etc, etc, that's a $40K build.

The E34 is notorious for front end shimmy due to even the slightest wear/play in the front strut-arm bushings. Otherwise, it's a fairly non-remarkable front strut system, and suffers pretty much the exact same "front strut" suspension issues as the Fox Mustang/LTD. Performance parts are available for both, though the BMW pieces run a good 30% more than those for the Fox Mustang.

The rear of the E34 is a semi-trailing arm IRS, with all of the "semi-trailing arm" compromises that come standard with such a set up. The SN95 IRS is a multilink design, with compromises made for packaging in the SN95 (Fox) platform. Both have their good points, both have their issues. The standard differential in a non-M-series E34 is weak and non-posi. The standard rear in an SN95 IRS is an 8.8 posi. Start with an M-series and rebuilding the rear level-ride will cost as much as buying a Ridetecch system for a Fox-Mustang/LTD. Performance parts are available for both, though those for the BMW run 30% to 50% more than those for the SN95 Mustang.

The brakes on the E34 M series are well known for their warped rotors. Upgrade kits are available, but you will pay for them. The brakes on the Fox-Mustang/LTD are pitiful, but upgrades are a junkyard/Ebay search away.

Both are monocoque "unibodies" with probably about the same amount of technology utilized in their construction and design. Neither is the best looking car in the world, though the BMW does get a nod due to it's having been a status symbol back when it was built, while the Fox-Mustang/LTD was pretty much relegated to commuter car/police car/salesman's car status. Both have about the same propensity (or non-propensity) for rust. E34 5-series cars can be found for a couple grand, but they will be clapped out cars. A pristine example will set you back a good $10K. As I have stated, the Fox-Mustang/LTD will set you back about $2K for a pristine example.

Swapping anything into a BMW will cost you, big time. Custom engine mounts, custom radiator, custom A/C lines, custom hoses, custom exhaust, etc, etc, etc. 80% of the changes to the Fox-Mustang/LTD are bolt on. The 302/5-speed bolts in using a Fox-Mustang parts car. The A/C bolts up. The lines and hoses bolt up. The IRS bolts in. The brake upgrades are inexpensive. If I had a guess, a nice E34 with an LS3/6-speed will probably be at least double what it would cost to build a nice, 302/5-speed/IRS Fox-Mustang/LTD.

And in the end, there is one more issue, maybe I'm a moron with no taste, but I like the look of the Fox-Mustang/LTD. Lowered on nice wheels, I think they look at least equal to the E34 BMW. And remember, this is supposed to be a fun, daily driver--emphasis on Daily. It will sit in parking lots, carry groceries, travel across the country, get driven in the rain and dust, etc.

Ten years ago, a guy building a Maverick was thought of as throwing his money away. Now, Mavericks are cool. Nonetheless, a 4-door Maverick is still a throwaway car.

But I'm not building this to sell in three years. I'm not building it to sell in five or even ten years, for that matter. But who cares? Let's say I spend $30K on the build, drive it for 250K miles, and sell it in ten years for $3K. Who cares? I still lost less than if I'd bought a 2-year old car. You wouldn't mention money if I'd posted up on the 2-year old CTS I'd just bought. You wouldn't mention money if I then went and dumped $10K of performance parts into the thing. But I'd lose a lot more when I sold the thing some 250K miles later. Why is that a "good" idea and spending what I think I can spend on this a "bad" idea?

[raustinss]

ok so you've already sold yourself on the car so why ask us for opinions , I say giver they can be cool cars and yes the support is thru the roof . parts are cheapish . only thing id change on your build would be either a coyote,ecoboost 6 or 4 cylinder versions or something other then the ancient old heavy 5.0.