Fast EZ EFI HELP please!

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by PTAddict

All true, and very good advice. But if you're suggesting that the only reason these systems sometimes fail to work well is lack of attention to detail in the install - well....

I wasn't suggesting that at all.


What I AM SUGGESTING is that many (most) of the time it's not a defective part - it's a defective install. Yet people are most apt to quickly blame the EFI as the culprit.

For many -- the EZ EFI (or similar system) is nothing more than a carburetor replacement... and that is what it was meant to be. It's simple. It's effective. It's cost effective from an installation standpoint and from the lack of professional tuning and dyno time. Let's NOT try to compare the cost benefit analysis because there isn't one. Tuned vs Self tuning systems are not marketed nor meant to be for everyone. Many just don't need the tuned version.

Carburetors need tuning to be optimized. So does a self learning system such as the EZ EFI. There are Accel Fuel issues (particularly with IR systems) that can be adjusted etc. But A/F "ratios" are not that important to hit dead on unless you're trying to optimize for drag racing etc. You'll see very little HP/TQ number difference on the dyno between a WOT of 12.5 vs 12.8. The correct TIMING CURVE and TOTAL TIMING is far far more important. So my point is that for many people the tuned systems just aren't required or necessary to have a great driving and running car.

The "horror stories" are what scare people away from doing EFI AT ALL and that's more my point, because I'm a firm believer in EFI. Install the stuff with CARE and follow the instructions and most of the time the outcome will be very satisfying.

[Ketzer]

Originally Posted by PTAddict

Yes, you have to have a computer to load the initial tune - but how many folks on this forum are really that afraid of computers?

I guess I would have to admit fear. While I do understand the basics of AFR, timing, fuel delivery, etc., I would be quite lost jumping into programming/modifying all those tables all by myself. I think there are a bunch like me out there too because the main focus of these latest systems (FAST, MSD, Holley) are developing a plug-n-play with a simple handheld and yes/no questions. I realize these simplified systems are insulting to you computer literate in the crowd and you cannot understand why we don't just do our own programming. It is the intimidation from the unknown but more than that, I'm not willing to learn at the expense of my engine or spend hours and hours just trying to get it to run slightly better than a carb. I very much enjoy working on my cars but am not excited about chasing these EFI gremlins we so ften read about. THAT is the appeal of a plug-n-play self learning system.

About the tuning side of it, There are also a ton of folks out there (several here in my hometown) that swear they are the best EFI gurus on the planet. How do you know if they are FOS until you turn them loose on your baby?


Jeff-

[PTAddict]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I wasn't suggesting that at all.


What I AM SUGGESTING is that many (most) of the time it's not a defective part - it's a defective install. Yet people are most apt to quickly blame the EFI as the culprit.

...

The "horror stories" are what scare people away from doing EFI AT ALL and that's more my point, because I'm a firm believer in EFI. Install the stuff with CARE and follow the instructions and most of the time the outcome will be very satisfying.

Agreed. The two cases I mentioned above were the only cases in 15 years of installing and/or tuning dozens of systems - FAST, Accel, Holley, AEM, BugStuff3, Mast, Motec, GM and Ford OEM - where I didn't get what I'd consider to be an acceptable result, which is an engine that works better than a carb under almost all conditions.

Originally Posted by Ketzer

I guess I would have to admit fear. While I do understand the basics of AFR, timing, fuel delivery, etc., I would be quite lost jumping into programming/modifying all those tables all by myself. I think there are a bunch like me out there too because the main focus of these latest systems (FAST, MSD, Holley) are developing a plug-n-play with a simple handheld and yes/no questions. I realize these simplified systems are insulting to you computer literate in the crowd and you cannot understand why we don't just do our own programming. It is the intimidation from the unknown but more than that, I'm not willing to learn at the expense of my engine or spend hours and hours just trying to get it to run slightly better than a carb. I very much enjoy working on my cars but am not excited about chasing these EFI gremlins we so ften read about. THAT is the appeal of a plug-n-play self learning system.

About the tuning side of it, There are also a ton of folks out there (several here in my hometown) that swear they are the best EFI gurus on the planet. How do you know if they are FOS until you turn them loose on your baby?


Jeff-

I totally get the appeal and the promise of these systems, even for me - provided they work. I have no more desire than the next guy to ditz around with unnecessary work or arcane knowledge, which is why I recommended the EZ-EFI setup to customers in earlier days when it seemed to get nothing but positive press and feedback on the forums. But now I feel responsible for wasting other people's money on one car that doesn't run like it should, and another that barely runs at all, despite many hours of frustrating effort. I hate disappointing people, which is probably why I'm overreacting a bit here

BTW, lest it seem I'm just picking on FAST, we've recently had two potential customers drop in with the same kind of issues using the MSD "Atomic" system. We've told them we can try to help within the parameters provided by the hand held tuner, but there are no guarantees or even high confidence we'll fix their problems. So far, no takers on that bet ... Maybe I just live in some kind of vortex that attracts these problems

[Judgement]

Well I was at my buddy Peter Bergman's shop "Bergman Auto Craft" today and he looked over the system from front to back. He fixed a couple of issues from the previous installer. We went out and live tuned it and it still fell on its face we went back to the shop to check all the lines again but they were all good. So I took the fuel filter off, which was recommended here and what do you know there was a carb filter inside so we took it out then reinstalled it with out the block. We went back out to test it and W W I could not believe what a difference it was. The motor I built was finally there all 525hp and 620tq. A 5 cent carb filter block drove me crazy. Now we can fine tune the motor to perfection, I can't thank my good friend Peter Bergman enough and thanks to everyone who has replied to this post with help an suggestions!!!!!

[GregWeld]

Not the INSTALL!!! SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!


My guess is it ran like a f'n champ within 20 minutes. It will take a few starts for it to get that part spot on -- then you can hit the key and never touch the gas and it will fire off instantly.



Personally I'm so happy that you found the issue. Seems every time I've had to find something -- it always comes down to some stupid little item you wouldn't think of in a million years. I've learned to just look at EVERY SINGLE thing when someone is having an issue. I take nothing for granted and I don't care how many times a guy tells me he followed the instructions --- I find they DIDN'T.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Revved

I've had that conversation with David Page and Kevin Winstead even though they both agreed that there should be a "Tuner Backdoor" for guys that know what they are doing the Management at FAST has determined that they want the system sealed. I've done 3 EZ EFI systems- one on a common plenum manifold and two on direct runner manifolds. The common plenum engine was a caddy 500ci big block, it tuned out just fine and is a great driver. The other two with direct runner intakes were stroker small block Windsors and they were finicky.

The first one I did was soon after EZ EFI came out and actually cost me future business with the client. The system would develop a flat spot on moderate accel like briskly getting on the highway. FAST didn't have any ideas of what could cause it- I would clear out the program and it would go away for a while then tune itself back in. The client didn't want to wait for me to figure out what was wrong so I shipped him the car and of course it became a big issue.

The second one just develops random stumbles. The owner has just accepted it as part of driving a "race car" on the street but short of replacing the system I don't have any other options.

I've gone back to putting sequential XFI systems on everything. Direct runner intakes are tricky to properly tune unless you have experience with them. I have not yet seen a self-tuning system is smart enough to work out the necessary compromises that make it driveable in the real world.

Mark and I had a conversation about this a couple years back... It is easy for him to bash the FAST systems because he has seen a lot of badly installed and tuned systems... I've seen the same but I've also seen what they can do when they are set up properly. My tank is always half full but I don't think I'll be trying any of the EZ 2.0 systems.

The very first thing I'd check is that someone didn't install the ECU and or ANY of it's wiring --- or any sensor wiring -- ANYWHERE and I mean ANYWHERE near a high energy ignition system (MSD etc). I can't even begin to tell you what manor of issues this can buy you. It just simply can't be emphasized enough.

IR need a fat fuel ratio -- the air to cylinder is just so F'n fast in these systems. They're not going to idle or run on a 14.7 AF.... Idle needs to be more like 13.8 -- you can lean the cruise out "a little" but a little isn't 15! And there's an accel fuel number (in the advanced settings window) that can be brought in to help a stumble. Be careful with this number - just bump it or lower it - 1 number at a time and let the ECU learn before you change anything else.

[ccracin]

I have yet to find someone that tunes EFI for a living rave about self tuning systems. Go figure. Not calling anyone out, it's just human nature. If I sell PPG paint, I'm not going to recommend Dupont. Doesn't make sense. To each their own.

[Judgement]

No Greg you were spot on with a lot of things, the engine builder who installed the system had the map sensor hanging on by a thread, the throttle blades weren't adjusted properly etc... But the thing that made all the difference was the fuel filter. It was night and day an what a relief it is to know that it works. We still need to fine tune the timing and I want to check the MSD distributers springs an stops, I thought we changed them but I want to double check. Thanks for the great advice but it wasn't the instal LOL.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by PTAddict

BTW, lest it seem I'm just picking on FAST, we've recently had two potential customers drop in with the same kind of issues using the MSD "Atomic" system. We've told them we can try to help within the parameters provided by the hand held tuner, but there are no guarantees or even high confidence we'll fix their problems. So far, no takers on that bet ... Maybe I just live in some kind of vortex that attracts these problems

I'd suggest that troubleshooting begins with a complete review of the install before you ever pick up the handheld.

The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. That is usually what happens with the handheld settings -- they're run over and over with minor tweaks --- resulting is a POS running car because it didn't fix the issue.

Finding the fault should simply begin with the fuel system - since that's all the ECU controls.... Are they running old crappy fuel lines that the new fuels have disintegrated and they're now causing issues with the filters or injectors.... Are there pre and aft filters of the proper size surrounding the fuel pump.... is the pressure set correctly in the ECU and actual readings... Next I look at the O2 sensor. It's usually fouled beyond recognition. I won't tell you how to clean it... I assume you know how. If not - just replace it.
Then I go for the wiring -- and that's where 90% of the issues are. Bad connections - connectors poorly crimped - bad or missing grounds - wiring intermingled with the MSD box or ECU too close to the MSD box.... Then I jump to the distributor curve and timing... checking the MAP sensor and it's install and source... and then finally pull the plugs because they'll be a disaster.... because usually the issues are from TOO MUCH fuel once the car runs like crap and the system can't adjust.

I don't bother to even turn the car over until I've checked every single facet of the install -- to include any sensor install (like tape used to seal the threads). The system won't start to self tune until it hits 140*.

Clear out the "program" and start over... making certain to know what injectors are being used. I like to default to putting in the injector sizing etc rather than selecting one of the "known" kit numbers.

On IR systems it takes a bit more prep -- and something that many don't do is they don't disconnect the linkage before making adjustments. They are IR systems for a reason! There's this word in there --- INDIVIDUAL..... side to side linkage has to be disconnected... and a manometer used to adjust each intake until they're perfect. If one is missed up the entire thing is messed up.
Sometimes the actual physical butterfly(s) needs to be tweaked.

And then the linkage is hooked back up once the idle and everything else is running as it should... and if hooking that up changes anything - then the linkage needs to be adjusted.

Finally I go back in to the handheld and reset the throttle for idle and WOT.... and fire it back off and adjust the idle in the handheld to where the car is currently idling. I never use a IAC in these systems - it's not necessary. But I like to set the physical idle - get the timing all dialed in etc -- and then go back and tell the ECU what the idle RPM is. It, of course, can't adjust the idle which is why it's asking for that info (it wants to control the IAC)... so I want the ECU to just see the tach input is say 800 --- and I know the motor is idling at 800 so I tell the handheld that the idle is set to 800. DONE.

I just did a Brodix headed 496 BBC --- IR --- It's idle doesn't vary 25 rpms using my dial back timing light that has RPM capability. That's confirmed by the handheld info screen as well.

[Ketzer]

You do make house calls, don't you GW ...?


Jeff-