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  #71  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:06 PM
dhutton dhutton is offline
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Originally Posted by mfain View Post
After reading these posts I have been doing a little of Don’s “navel gazing” regarding the subject myself. It is clear from multiple posts by qualified experts, including Greg, that you cannot expect a prototype car, especially a true race car contender, to be full up until it has had a great deal of testing, tuning, and refinement. Read Hutton’s post 42, Blake’s post 46, Ironwood’s post 51, and Weld’s post 58, which reads in part: ‘#3 -- Sutton built Dirt Missile.... $200K catalog car.... Expect to have LOTS of issues and LOTS of set up work and LOTS of testing and tuning.... but if you can't do little things even half right - and you are aware of an issue and don't bother to fix it -- and you cost me $50K in wasted time and effort.... you don't get to touch the car ever... because you're too F'n stupid. I'd prefer to pay someone double (not) to fix it....

Pappy
I am not a subject matter expert regarding six figure custom built cars. Not even close and I did not mean to imply that I am. I’ve steered clear of the whole Sutton Weld debacle for that precise reason. My navel gazing was not directed at that build. I was just sharing some general thoughts from an engineering perspective.

Don

Last edited by dhutton; 09-12-2018 at 05:13 PM.
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  #72  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:11 PM
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GregWeld GregWeld is offline
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Originally Posted by FaBrycation View Post
what happens if your tail light is "floppy"?









too soon?






You pack the POS with tannerite and put in a field out 1500 yards and light it up.....
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  #73  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
I get that totally... The thing is though, that line is different for everyone because of "their" personal abilities.

I have a neighbor raising hell with the builder because the sand has washed out between the pavers in their driveway. They either don't think it's their responsibility to replace the sand that has washed out or can't...and are holding the builders feet to the fire to make them fix it under the warranty.

I can (and have already) picked sand up at the hardware store and swept it into the voids in my driveway...just part of being a homeowner in my eyes.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is for everyone to try to be reasonable on both sides and to do their best to take stock of the situation and come to a reasonable solution to the issues that come up.

I'm certain all of the builders reading this thread have had "that customer" that wants the sand in their driveway voids replaced at no charge and they cringe every time the customer calls and I'm certain all of the owners reading this thread have had "that builder" who refuses to fix their blatant screw ups because they are too busy or just don't care.

Whether they are one time deals on either side or standard operating procedure...should also be taken into consideration before final judgement is passed.


Here's something you'll learn with PAVERS ---- that's not just ordinary "sand" in the gaps -- or sure as hell shouldn't be -- there's an actual sand for pavers called POLYMERIC that when you add some moisture - sets up and stays in place.
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  #74  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:32 PM
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Nobody is irritated.... and most have no axe to grind.

I'm not going to regurgitate the Sutton debacle in here..... and all I'm going to say about that is #1 -- you weren't a part of it (my build or any of the track events).... and you really "had to be there" to fully understand. Trust me when I tell you the people that were there -- were a whole lot "rougher" about it than I was.

#2 -- It's been stated on Lateral G MANY TIMES -- there was / is adequate "evidence" for the website to take action. It's also been stated several times - that what people share in private is not for others to "out" them.

#3 -- Sutton ruined his own business. It started WAY WAY WAY before my build. You just don't want to see it.

I was at the IMSA GT races this weekend -- with friends that have been racing and building cars for YEARS.... and IMSA GT racing is a little bit above where we all are... Ya think? They (my friends) had already seen the chassis work and lower control arms etc -- and they were mortified by what they saw. None would run the car. So "being fast" isn't all of what makes a car good....

There were MANY REASONS for firing his sorry ass..... But mostly because he's clueless.







Quote:
Originally Posted by mfain View Post
After reading these posts I have been doing a little of Don’s “navel gazing” regarding the subject myself. It is clear from multiple posts by qualified experts, including Greg, that you cannot expect a prototype car, especially a true race car contender, to be full up until it has had a great deal of testing, tuning, and refinement. Read Hutton’s post 42, Blake’s post 46, Ironwood’s post 51, and Weld’s post 58, which reads in part: ‘#3 -- Sutton built Dirt Missile.... $200K catalog car.... Expect to have LOTS of issues and LOTS of set up work and LOTS of testing and tuning.... but if you can't do little things even half right - and you are aware of an issue and don't bother to fix it -- and you cost me $50K in wasted time and effort.... you don't get to touch the car ever... because you're too F'n stupid. I'd prefer to pay someone double (not) to fix it.”

Two track sessions is not “LOTS of testing and tuning”. Sutton knew after the NASA event test what needed to be done, and he set about to do it as part of the expected series of “set-up, testing, and tuning”. Sutton’s post after the NASA event reads:

“The car was crazy fast, but it's not correct yet. The RSRT stuff I designed, like the chassis, suspension, brakes, 3rd Member & engine combo all worked well. Some of the things I just buy, also worked good, like the PPG Sequential transmission, QuarterMaster clutch & X-ineering "no lift" shift controller. But the ARE Dry Sump system had serious issues that were frustrating as Fu#$. So was the C&R cooling system. Both of those companies have awesome records of great products. But the systems they recommended that are "currently" on Greg's car did not work well at all. Gotta be fixed.

So back at the office, I'll be working with the cooling experts at C&R & the dry sump gurus at ARE to figure out what's wrong & make whatever changes are needed to Greg's car & future Track-Warriors. After we figure out what changes are needed to the dry sump system tank/plumbing/venting & cooling system, we'll bring Greg's car back to Randy's shop & make those upgrades/corrections. Well before it runs again. Frankly, we'll probably go test just to make sure the cooling system & dry sump vent don't have any issues & work as they should before going to another event.

At this time, the car is NOT plug n' play. Rob, I didn't want you to take me not posting a story with details as "all was great." I did want to announce the pool winner. As you know, it was rough. But we toughed it out & got a couple TTU wins which are really a testament to the car's capabilities & the crews perseverance. But we still have work to do.”

Greg, for reasons of his own and which he has attempted to explain in his posts, elected to terminate Sutton’s involvement and eliminated the opportunity for him to make things right. The car was fast out of the box, due primarily to a solid, well thought out suspension design. It needed finish work and correction of the Sutton-identified issues. Oil venting from high horsepower, dry-sump LS motors, for example, is a continuing problem (just read the Corvette racing or LS forums), but there are known solutions. Wiring and the body needed to be cleaned up – okay…all part of the process.

An individual can terminate a contract or relationship any time he chooses, but to slander the other party or use that as a basis to mount a campaign to wreck his business is just wrong. It’s fair to state your case, but to “imply” that the problem is wide spread without providing adequate supporting documentation in a vindictive effort to harm the other party is unethical.

Ron Sutton has provided a valuable service to this community with his knowledge and willingness to share that knowledge. Many of you who have jumped on the bandwagon have multiple posts on Ron’s suspension stickys asking for free advice. It was a bold step to try to create a business catering to the true performance end of the Pro-touring community. Someone asked why he thought he could compete with Summit or Jegs. Who wants to wade through pages of generic parts to get to real, quality performance parts tailored to our type of project? Have you tried to call Summit and ask for a quote on a very custom sway bar from Speedway Engineering? – How did that work out for you? Ron did that for me, and I got the bar in 3 weeks. He let me order a set of Forgeline wheels under one of his sales events, even though I didn’t have the backspace dimensions worked out yet. A couple of months later, when I got my act together and gave him the info, he ordered the wheels that day at the sales price (and free shipping). I have never had an issue with his service or responsiveness, although sometimes you have to wait for his supplier to provide unique or custom-order parts.

I know this post will irritate some members of the “club”, but so be it.

Pappy
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  #75  
Old 09-13-2018, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dhutton View Post
I am not a subject matter expert regarding six figure custom built cars. Not even close and I did not mean to imply that I am. I’ve steered clear of the whole Sutton Weld debacle for that precise reason. My navel gazing was not directed at that build. I was just sharing some general thoughts from an engineering perspective.

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  #76  
Old 09-13-2018, 08:46 AM
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''I know this post will irritate some members of the “club”, but so be it.''

First off I don't get the whole club thing . Nothing was said about Ron in this conversation. I don't really know you or what kind of car you have . With that being said until you get it shoved up your a@# after spending 2-300 thousand on a car that was ''PROFESSIONALLY'' done l think you would become a ''CLUB'' member !
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  #77  
Old 09-13-2018, 11:29 AM
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Something I posted in the build thread I think bears repeating here...

I hope you can come out the other side of this still having some love for your car. I've only seen pics, but it is absolutely stunning. Please try to move through getting the problems worked out so you can enjoy the car. I can understand how just thinking about it sours the dream... it's not the car's fault, and the car overall is amazing!


Jeff-
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  #78  
Old 09-14-2018, 12:06 AM
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FETorino FETorino is offline
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Poor Benny

He will be missed.
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https://lateral-g.net/forums/show...10645&page=171

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  #79  
Old 10-04-2018, 01:02 PM
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I have one last thought, comment on this subject before I have Jody close it up . As I followed GW on his journey to GOOD GUY'S TEXAS, Seeing GW enjoy the heck out of his truck was awesome to watch as the trip went along. As I watched this I couldn't help to think about all the jerkoff's that screwed this guy around and all they gave up by not taking care of this man. He finally has a shop that got it right for him and I believe they now have a customer for life plus all the referrals that this guy is going to send them. It's a win win for the shop . In the beginning when I started my shop I was going gang busters so it was easy to think who gives a **** if a guy's not happy there's going to be another customer right behind him. Well after about a year or so business started dropping off . And it wasn't hard to figure out why. It took me a long time to bounce back . I still see some of those customers who I will never get back. They go to other shops that take care of them. Plus you don't facture in the people you lost because bad word of mouth goes around a lot faster than good! When this happens it humbles you in a hurry trust me ! I did a lot of soul searching during that time and changed my whole perspective around on how I needed to do business. I was fortunate to be able to save my business but it doesn't always work that way. So I say go right ahead keep thinking your THE guy your shop is full of cars . Keep screwing people over and it won't be long before you figure it out like I did!!!
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  #80  
Old 10-06-2018, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by DOOM View Post
I have one last thought, comment on this subject before I have Jody close it up . As I followed GW on his journey to GOOD GUY'S TEXAS, Seeing GW enjoy the heck out of his truck was awesome to watch as the trip went along. As I watched this I couldn't help to think about all the jerkoff's that screwed this guy around and all they gave up by not taking care of this man. He finally has a shop that got it right for him and I believe they now have a customer for life plus all the referrals that this guy is going to send them. It's a win win for the shop . In the beginning when I started my shop I was going gang busters so it was easy to think who gives a **** if a guy's not happy there's going to be another customer right behind him. Well after about a year or so business started dropping off . And it wasn't hard to figure out why. It took me a long time to bounce back . I still see some of those customers who I will never get back. They go to other shops that take care of them. Plus you don't facture in the people you lost because bad word of mouth goes around a lot faster than good! When this happens it humbles you in a hurry trust me ! I did a lot of soul searching during that time and changed my whole perspective around on how I needed to do business. I was fortunate to be able to save my business but it doesn't always work that way. So I say go right ahead keep thinking your THE guy your shop is full of cars . Keep screwing people over and it won't be long before you figure it out like I did!!!


Bingo !!!!!!
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