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  #11  
Old 12-17-2006, 09:25 AM
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Stielow gave me a ride in Camaro X, but unfortunately the conditions that day didn't allow us to play too much. The Mule, which was the development mule for the rear suspension, pulled over 1g with Mark's test equipment at Thunderhill with the Michelin Pilot Sports. Jody can attest to how well it works, he was riding shotgun.
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  #12  
Old 12-17-2006, 02:38 PM
Bowtieracing Bowtieracing is offline
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This is intresting thread. Plese more opinions plese. How much QL will affect wheel hope when takeing hard 1/4 lounch on wide 335 tires?

And was it so at DSEs test car won some test against other modded camaros with leafs?

This is important info for people who hasnt decide wich way to go. As much as i like the idea of 3 link i dont like the looks of the watts link cradle and want to keep my rear seat. So its leafs or QL .
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  #13  
Old 12-17-2006, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowtieracing
And was it so at DSEs test car won some test against other modded camaros with leafs?
Yeah.... but whose leafs ?? There is a lot more to leafs than meets the eye or to what is in the mainstreme market. I know for a fact that out of the two to three people I know, that 'know' leafs, werent included in this test.

In reality, a barney bolt on lowering spring is just that.... a barney bolt on lowering spring.

After having a few conversations with the creator of the QL, I have come to the understanding that there were some compromises to the overall execution of the system that muted its overall capabilities from its original and intended design. But, packaging is and/or it can be the biggest issue in consideration of the design goal. That is/was probably the biggest issue and it was really the reason why CamaroX didnt get the Lateral Dynamics 3-link. There was a question on exhaust clearance and packaging it smartly. I believe that Mark wanted no compormise and no question in his vision of the completed project... could you blame him ?? Not- me.

Another issue to address is you monkey's that are stuffing 335's in the rear. There is a thing refered to as "balance". If you cannot get enough tire in the front to balance out the steamrollers in the rear... the chassis is going to have issues with understeer that might only be band-aid'ed by dialing the suspension into an area in which it will then affect other aspects of handeling. The two that come to mind is increasing accerman and increasing toe which can have a detrimental effect on tire life and stability.

But however.... it does look pretty cool.

Last edited by chicane; 12-17-2006 at 03:22 PM.
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  #14  
Old 12-17-2006, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
After having a few conversations with the creator of the QL, I have come to the understanding that there were some compromises to the overall execution of the system that muted its overall capabilities from its original and intended design.
I'm thinking of the QL for my car. Can you define for us the compromises in the QL system? I'm curious to know if the limitations are purely performance related, ride quality issue etc...
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  #15  
Old 12-17-2006, 06:49 PM
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And I would like to know who has a good riding set of leaf springs. Mainly street driven, occasional back road thrash?
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  #16  
Old 12-17-2006, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zcrz
And I would like to know who has a good riding set of leaf springs. Mainly street driven, occasional back road thrash?
Who as in manufacturer?,or individual members on this site?
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  #17  
Old 12-18-2006, 01:05 AM
Bowtieracing Bowtieracing is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicane
Yeah.... but whose leafs ?? There is a lot more to leafs than meets the eye or to what is in the mainstreme market. I know for a fact that out of the two to three people I know, that 'know' leafs, werent included in this test.

In reality, a barney bolt on lowering spring is just that.... a barney bolt on lowering spring.

After having a few conversations with the creator of the QL, I have come to the understanding that there were some compromises to the overall execution of the system that muted its overall capabilities from its original and intended design. But, packaging is and/or it can be the biggest issue in consideration of the design goal. That is/was probably the biggest issue and it was really the reason why CamaroX didnt get the Lateral Dynamics 3-link. There was a question on exhaust clearance and packaging it smartly. I believe that Mark wanted no compormise and no question in his vision of the completed project... could you blame him ?? Not- me.

Another issue to address is you monkey's that are stuffing 335's in the rear. There is a thing refered to as "balance". If you cannot get enough tire in the front to balance out the steamrollers in the rear... the chassis is going to have issues with understeer that might only be band-aid'ed by dialing the suspension into an area in which it will then affect other aspects of handeling. The two that come to mind is increasing accerman and increasing toe which can have a detrimental effect on tire life and stability.

But however.... it does look pretty cool.
Thank you Chicane for valuable points to consider. Could you arrange or sell those good "know" leafs? I have no need to build my futuru car from cool catalog but i really wont and appreciate parts and systems wich are really tested and matched to work together. I dont have resources for extensive track or chassis dyno testing. I just want right and reliable package .
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  #18  
Old 12-18-2006, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beegs
Can you define for us the compromises in the QL system?
Without mis-quoting, (as that conversation was a couple of years ago) getting too technical or writing a novel, I believe that the concerns were the link lengths, the ratio of link lengths... and having some geometrical intersects that were shorter than what was considered optimum. But I do know that with the limited amount of wheel travel that our cars have, at the ride heights we run them at, I personally believe that this really becomes a non issue for a track car. But as for a street chassis, unless you have some crazy need for a lot of suspension articulation, it too would have very little effect (street cars dont care about time). It was designed to be packaged the way it is... and there will always be a little give and take into a suspension (the rear) that most people just dont take the time to understand.

The QL is a far depature from running an ordinary leaf spring, that is for sure. In most cases, it will do just fine for a streeter. But if you are looking for that edge over the next guy, or are just anal about having things done correctly or executed as well as it can be done... you definately have better options.

As for cost comparison... what you get out of the LD 3-link for the price is a WHOLE lot more of a complete system than that of a couple of weld on brackets and a pair of dampers. So, in reality... you are getting a lot more for what you pay for. So to compare it to the DSE QL kit... is like comparing apples to Kiwi's. They are not the same tree by any means.

As for leafs... and I mean real leafs, they are right there. If done correctly the performance will be there... but the cost isnt going too far behind either. I think a complete set of leafs, bushings and shackels can run between $650 to $1200 depending on the spring used. For example, if you want professional spring that is hand made for a specific chassis (which is what I mostly do) or a spring that will do really bitchen on the street and your not up to splitting hairs over lap times (which I have done and doing more of). And then.... you also have the dampers to do. And that is a whole'nother monkey all together, because I can go from a $145 a shock to well over $1200 a piece in the blink of an eye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zcrz
And I would like to know who has a good riding set of leaf springs. Mainly street driven, occasional back road thrash?
There are other points to consider when asking this question.

First of all, to build the correct rear spring, there is a bunch of information that is required to obtain the wanted ride height and more specifically... the correct spring rate to work with the front suspension system. The rear spring rate is directly related to the front spring rate and any geometrical modifications from OE stock.

So to answer your question... I would need to know your front spring rate, suspension modifiations and all relevent components used, HP and torque production of the engine, engine weight, chassis modifications (fiber glass body parts, battery relocation, etc) and that is about 1/4 of what I would need to know before I even considered a spring recommendation. It would be real easy to just say, "Hey go get these 3 inch drop springs and you'll be good." But, its not that easy... unless your satisified with an (unbeknownst to you) mediocre and unbalanced set up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowtieracing
Could you arrange or sell those good "know" leafs? I just want right and reliable package .
It can always be had... and who knows... it might be a good time, now or in the near future, to do another GP. I can always do one off sets, they just cost more. It really comes down to what you really want, and more importantly, what you really need. Sure I could do pro springs for anyone, but do you really need them.. ??.. or could you get away with something a little less expensive for a street chassis. Yup, I think so...

(DOH !! I still owe Gallopin (David) a drawing as we speak.)
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  #19  
Old 12-18-2006, 07:30 AM
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blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I've personally seen DSE's Quadra-Link and DSE leaf springs run within a tenth of a second of each other. Same track, same weather, same driver. I used actual eyeballs to witness this proceeding. My spreadheet was at the dry cleaners. In addition, my olfactory senses provided me with the smell of engine fumes and flatulents emanating from their car owners as both cars were driven to 8/10'ths of their full potential--which is to say very aggressive driving.

It is unlikely that either car will ever experience ten tenths because of the risks associated with that whole 11/10ths thingie. So given that this is a hot rod site, sweating minute performance discrepancies is laughable at best.

If I were forced to draw any conclusion, it would be that Quadra-Links ride real nice and are adjustable while the leaf springs are cheap and easy.

Leaf Springs:

Quadra-Link:
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  #20  
Old 12-18-2006, 12:01 PM
Mean 69 Mean 69 is offline
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Just a few clarifications on our stuff, and a opinion or two on the other arguments.

The DSE quadralink, and the Lateral Dynamics 3-Link setup have a few things in common, but not too much. Both require modifications to the trunk area to locate the shocks, both require intrusion to the rear seat area to locate the forward link(s), and both use coil-over shocks in place of the leaf springs. BOTH will allow the use of a modified rear seat, but don't expect to just drop your stock rear seat in either case. Beyond that, the comparisons pretty much end. The price on our kit is quite a bit higher than the DSE setup, but the two kits are nowhere near the same in terms of what you get, compare them and you will see.

It's true the we entertained participating on Mark's Project X, but at that time, we could not say for certain that we could run tailpipes on the car, we were 95% certain, and I could have lied to him, but that's not how we do things. Mark is a great guy and very sharp, moreso than folks probably even realize, and I don't fault his decision to go with what he knew. In fact, it was critically important for us, we went back and changed the design a little to insure, with 100% certainty, that we could run tailpipes, so in the end I thank him for not choosing us: we might not have been so motivated to wring out the design a bit more. At this point, we can run up to 4" tailpipes on our system, the attached photo shows a customer car running 2.5" tubes, there is plenty of room for far larger, and no, these are not mandrel bent tubes, there is plenty of room regardless. Funny, when I asked Mark how he fit the tailpipes on the Mule, he noted that he had to notch the gas tank. Turns out, you don't need to do that with our setup, we didn't exactly expect that, but this car is running a stock style tank, it's a stainless repop from Classic Industries. If you run mini-tubs, with leafs, don't forget to factor in the cost of a new narrowed gas tank, or plan on doing the work yourself. I believe the same to be true with the Quadra Link (i.e. needs to be notched) but this only second hand from people that have seen the setup installed on a car, I haven't personally so I could be wrong. Granted, 4" pipes might not fit with a stock tank, but if you need 4" pipes, you'd better be running a full cage, with a "real" fuel cell, or you should seek mental help right away.

Our setup is adjustable. By design. The majority of the folks that will run our setup won't ever use this, but there are a darned good number of folks that will. And by adjustable, I mean more than just tuning the ride height, or spring rate. With changes in ride height comes changes in aspects such as anti-squat, roll steer, roll center height. Want to tune it for a special setup? You can. Don't need to? No sweat there either. It's not terribly important for most folks that are running the typical hot rod, and that's completely fine in our book. But, it is important to us, CRITICALLY important. Please don't use the "well, I shouldn't need to adjust the system, I just want to bolt it on and it should be perfect" argument, it's not valid. Do you tune your carb? Adjust the ignition timing? There are folks out there making careers out of tuning the newer awesome fuel injection systems. Why? Because they have the tools and knowledge to do so. Some folks will just want a "chip" to plug into their setup and will be fine with that. We can do the same by guiding you to an excellent baseline on our setup. Other folks want the software to tune every little aspect of the system, and we have this same analogy with our gear too. Better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

We use tubular steel, fixture welded crossmembers to react the high loads associated with the setup. We weld our own housings, because there are few folks that we trust to do it correctly, we have seen far more "bad" work done on cars than we have good, or even acceptable. Some folks can handle it given the right tools and knowledge, most folks can't (here's a hint: metal warps when you apply a lot of heat to it, such as with welding).

Let's face it, no one NEEDS all of the go fast stuff we put on our cars, we WANT it. We don't just set our cars up for the best performance, we set them up the way each of us wants. Playing on Steveo's blah blah blah comment on the RTH2 event, his paddle shifter most likely didn't make the car go any faster, so why bother running one and spending the extra money? 'cause it's cool. There's a lot to these decisions, not the least of which is brand loyalty. DSE has some fiercly loyal followers, Lateral Dynamics does too (we're just five years behind in terms of being in business, so there's a lot fewer!!). On one hand, it's a pain for the new consumer to sort through it all, on the other hand, choice is never a bad thing. Whatever you decide, have a great time with it, this hobby is a blast and everyone should not forget to have as much fun with it as possible.

Cheers,
Mark

P.S. And yes, 335's can and usually do hurt the balance due to the confines of the front/tire sizes, but who cares on the "street," they look WAY too cool not to run them if possible!!! Attached is a pic of a second gen mocked up with meats, baby.
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