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  #11  
Old 07-02-2013, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
The sport of Pro Touring … where drivers compete in AutoX, real road courses & fast events like the Silver State Challenge … are just asking for someone to get killed or disabled … because there are less rules. Don’t let the lack of rules guide your safety.
Could not agree more Ron.
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  #12  
Old 07-02-2013, 01:30 PM
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Thank you Ron.

Great information.

IMO - The modern day PT car with 500-650+ hp are really lacking cockpit integrity considering the acceleration and speeds they are capable of and obtaining.

Do you have any knowledge pertaining to subframed Camaro's regarding a cage's level of chassis stiffening with and without subframe connectors?
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  #13  
Old 07-02-2013, 01:57 PM
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Sieg,

I thought I saw saw engineering numbers on this site after someone installed frame connectors. But, I don't have anything quantitative. I got to see a Pro/Stock car on GM's test equipment, simulating forces, to see where it flexed & didn't ... which was very helpful ... but nothing with stock bodied cars.

I know the frame connectors, when welded in, add a degree of stiffness. And when the roll bar utilizes braces from the main hoop ... under the cross bar ... attached to frame connector ... the roll bar is much better prepared to withstand roof impacts ... than compared to just welding plates to the sheet metal.

Running door bars at the correct height and effectively making this an 8-point roll bar is going to raise the level of safety while improving the torsional rigidity of the chassis quite a bit.

I just can't put a number on it.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:02 PM
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Thanks Ron.
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  #15  
Old 07-02-2013, 10:01 PM
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I'd like to add ...

If i were installing a 4 or 6 point roll bar without door bars ... or a 4, 6 or 8 point roll bar with door bars ... but not a "roll cage" ... I would use 4130 Chromoly for ultimate strength ... and mount to as many frame structure points as I could.
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  #16  
Old 07-02-2013, 10:36 PM
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Ron, I'll be using fiberglass doors for next season. Would love to chat about door bars.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Track Junky View Post
Ron, I'll be using fiberglass doors for next season. Would love to chat about door bars.
Gotcha. Do you have a roll bar now without door bars?

If yes, post some info on it ... brand, diameter, wall thickness, material, bolted or welded in ... and photos would help.

---------------------------------------------------------------

A couple of quick tips:

a. You typically want it to connect to the main hoop at the bend, in line with the bar behind the seats. But this is just a starting point.

b. Ideally, you want to run the lower mount as far forward as you can, to create a wide "truss-like" footprint.

c. After you mock up some plastic sprinkler pipe at these two points ... we need to see if we run into "packaging problems."

d. We want to make SURE the door bars don't interfere with your ability to steer the hot rod. because seat height, door bar height & driver height all play a role ... i never know until we mock it up.

e. Often times, the bar is too close into the driver's seat (passenger too) and putting a bend in the door bar, with the curve "out" ... provides more driver cockpit room.

f. At the other end, we simply need to make sure it doesn't interfere with your feet or pedals.

g. Don't put a downward bend in it if you can avoid it. Especially in a track car. The improved strength & safety of having the bar at the right height outweighs the inconvenience of climbing over the bar.

h. I like to use 4130 Chromoly for door bars, regardless of what the main hoop is main of. Chromoly welds to mild steel just fine & the increased driver & passenger protection is worth the small difference in tubing cost.

i. I typically use the same size of tubing for the door bars as the main hoop ... 1-3/4" or 1-5/8". An exception would be if we need to go down 1/8 or 1/4" for clearance purposes. If you use 1-3/4" or 1-5/8" diameter Chromoly ... .083" wall is good. If you drop down to 1-1/2" diameter ... bump the wall thickness to .095"

When you post the info & photos we'll be able to discuss more.
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  #18  
Old 07-03-2013, 04:04 AM
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Hi Ron,

With reference to point g. - what are you're thought's on triangulating the downward bend a in this image? Seems like a good compromise strength/ergonomics.

BTW: Really been enjoying reading - and re-reading your posts!


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  #19  
Old 07-03-2013, 09:25 AM
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For chassis strength, the triangulation of the door bar makes up for the bend & then some, making it stronger.

But often the door bar being lower doesn't offer as much side impact protection in a crash. I say "often", because it all depends on the height of the bar versus the people in the seats.

Ultimately, for safety, you want the door bar to prevent things ... cars, telephone poles, ends of concrete barriers, etc ... from coming in & hitting the driver or passenger in side impacts.

Stock Car style bars with uprights & 1/8" plate work best & Pro/Stock X-braces work well too, but both require people to "crawl in". For single down bar with braces, I prefer the structure & placement in this photo.
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  #20  
Old 07-03-2013, 02:06 PM
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Couple of items I'd like to chime in on...

* Ron's comments materials and construction are all on point...can't disagree with any of them.

* The TigerCage is certified up to 175MPH by the ECTA, and has been since 2010.

* The current lack of NHRA/SFI certification for the TigerCage is a reflection of the fact we've been 100% pursuing our shock program at the expense of the TigerCage program. Its a matter of dollars...there's more of them in shocks than cages. If/when the shock program levels out I'll get back on the TigerCage program.

* The comment about welding a nice rigid rollbar/cage structure to a thin floorpan is especially on point. The TigerCage system integrates with the structural strength points of the specific model it is designed for in at least two different planes. That way one set of fasteners is always in shear instead of just tension.

* we use 304L stainless for several safety reasons:
1. in addition to the tangible material strength properties, austenitic stainless like 304L has the ability to deform in a predictable manner upon impact. This means it will tend to absorb crash impact energy instead of transferring it to the driver. In addition, once deformed it will take a set with a significantly increased yield [bend] strength. [think work hardening without the brittleness]
2. by avoiding a coating we avoid any possibility of the installer covering up an incomplete/inferior weld. Ever wonder whats under that nicely smoothed "weld" joint?

* the aesthetic and convenience features of using stainless are merely a happy coincidence.

More tech info on the TigerCage here: http://www.ridetech.com/store/tigercage/

I will also say that for the guy who has the talent, ambition, and resources to design and construct a PROPER rollbar/cage for their car...the TigerCage is likely not the most efficient solution. For the person who lacks any of the above...it might be a viable alternative.

Glad to see the interest in this level of info here!
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