Realistic build cost

[LL CUSTOM]

Hi everybody.
As a shop owner I am always triing to keep a handel on where the market is going and how cost are influnceing what and how guy's [and gals] are building their cars. What do you feel are realistic cost's for metal and paint work, chassis fabrication's or up grade's, drive train's [engine,trans ect.]. compared to some of the other site's I go on such as www.trifive.com or say www.streetrodding.com the car's on this site for the most part are way over the top in comparative build process's. so I would really appriciate your imput.
thank's and have a great day :thumbsup: Larry www.llcustomperformance.com

[Rick D]

Larry I can tell you from a shop stand point it is way more than most pepole think it cost to build these car's that we all love so much. Just from fixed cost at our shop taxes are almost $30,000.00 a year :faint: and that dose not include the patment to the bank every month. From a build cost stand point we charge $75.00 per hr and we bill t/m. We have a 69 Chevelle that will be going out the end of this week. We did a under car resto took the body off the frame sandblast prime and paint everything back to new all new parts to long story short the customer wanted to be around the $7500.00 mark just added up and to date he's at $21,000.00. Now he know where he is at with this build so there is no suprises for him and he pay as he goes. i quoted a job a couple of weeks ago the whole build minus eng and trans (he wants to do something) but mini tub quadra link wheels tire's paint stock guts but all new. He wants a show car I gave a qoute for $100,000.00. Now that does include the car also which we have. You know owning your own shop how the cost can get out of hand really quick. I'll add more later got to go give the kids a shower:yes:

[LL CUSTOM]

Rick
Thanks for the reply. I think as shop owner's anyone of us can relate to all the cost of running our buisness's. Recently I sold the big shop and am now moveing back to the old shop next to my rural home. Going from 10,000 sq ft with an in house media blast system and a down draft booth [ which I sold both pieces of equipt.] back to a 4,500 sq ft with a cross draft. is going to take some getting use to. but the shear cost of running that monster, was priceing me out of the market. lot's of potential customer's and nice prodject's ' but the market in central Wi bear's about 50.00 per hour and my accountant said it needed to be more like a 100.00 per hour.
But the reason I started this tread was to get a feel of what the average guy really thinks is a resonable price for this kind of work and what his or her expectation's are for thier investment. and hopefully a few more shop guys will pitch in and we will all come away with a more informed attitude of what can be expected all the way around. :D have a great day Larry:thumbsup:
www.llcustomperformance.com

[TravisB]

we qoute by the job get paid by the hour. hAving a car built is not for the faint at heart its get expensive real quick.

[Reckley]

I like the idea of a quote by the job.

[jy211]

Having a car built is not for the faint at heart... its get expensive real quick.

Ain't that the truth! :thumbsup:

[68protouring454]

30-50k if you do everything yourself
60-100 if you don't, and thats a mid grade car.

[Smack_talker]

we qoute by the job get paid by the hour. hAving a car built is not for the faint at heart its get expensive real quick.

Thats why its usually cheaper to buy a complete car than have one built. I worked at a rod shop before and watched builds skyrocket quick.

[ironworks]

It is cheaper, but all you are buying is what somebody else wanted, and then beat up. I would rather pay more and have exactly what I want.

The price of the car is directly related to the level of creativity and craftsmanship that a shop can demonstrate. Look at Rad rides, their labor rate is 55-65 an hour. But they just built the most expensive hot rod yet with the ridler car. But those boys can throw down, if you can dream of it and pay for it they can build it. There are very few shops that charge 100 per hour where you get your monies worth. Steve Moal come to mind as a rare exception, but not to many more. Most of the guys who do really amazing work are in the 55-75 per hour for a full tilt hot rod shop. The labor rate should have to do with the tools that the shop has to speed up the fabrication process.

I had a customer of mine us a local sheetmetal guy to do the chop on his truck. They charged him for a 125 hours @ 40 dollars per hour, to chop a pick up. The quality was good, but they do not have an english wheel or planishing hammer, so the made all the filler pieces with a hammer and dolly.
We chopped a sedan a few months ago and did the whole thing in 85 hours, because we have kick ass tools that speed things up. My labor rate is 55 currently, but we could have done his truck in 85 hours. Which is 4675. He asked me when he was done and I told him we could have done it cheaper because we can get more work done in that same hour.

[Steve Chryssos]

When I had my front clip redone the right way, I asked for an estimate. Answer was "$75/hour". I pushed for a rough idea of total cost, response was "$75/hour". I pushed once more for a ballpark figure, the answer was "$75/hour".

I learned my lesson. Good builders don't tease you with lowball numbers and then bang you on the other end. They put in the time to do the job right and then charge you accordingly. It's painful, but so is finding out that the job cost double or triple the estimate. Only the "up front estimate" approach can lead to hard feelings.

That's why I make and sell parts for a living and build cars for fun. :rofl:

[ironworks]

That's why I make and sell parts for a living and build cars for fun. :rofl:

So you figured out you will never get rich building cars, smart man

[Garage Dog 65]

Hi Larry,

I recently checked some of the local shops here in IND and all were 50 - 55 per hour + T/M. Range I checked was full service shops with chassis jig, tube benders, full fab, paint booths, etc - to smaller shops that did just bolt-on, replacement stuff and minor fab/patch work.

Jim

[Steve Chryssos]

So you figured out you will never get rich building cars, smart man

Gosh, it's not the money. After watching American Hot Rod, I decided that I never want to dye my hair. :rofl: Edit: ...Or dress like a Motel 6 curtain.

[ironworks]

Wel then I guess you will have to resort to selling parts, cuz building cars is a non money making career, until you get a TV show.

So let me tell you about the parts i'm working on bringing to market soon....

[Stuart Adams]

Realistic Build Equation = What you think it will cost x 2. Math 101. It works pretty much every time for me, LOL.

[Steve Chryssos]

Realistic Build Equation = What you think it will cost x 2. Math 101. It works pretty much every time for me, LOL.

...and don't forget twice as long. "Twice as much and twice as long"

[MarkM66]

30-50k if you do everything yourself
60-100 if you don't, and thats a mid grade car.

Sounds about right to me.

[LL CUSTOM]

Well you also have to figure in additional time for makeing all those part's fit some other guy is getting rich SELLING :rofl: :rofl: . All kidding aside I think Stuart has it figured best, Just when you think everything is going according to plan it all blow's up in your face, whether your a professional or a do it yourselfer. have a great day:thumbsup: Larry

[Stuart Adams]

...and don't forget twice as long. "Twice as much and twice as long"

That is true also. Good one.

[jeff hanson]

...and don't forget twice as long. "Twice as much and twice as long"
Took the words right out of my mouth!:willy:

[race-rodz]

on flat rate jobs, i usually bid it at $75/hr. figuring the lil things that come up will even the job out to the standard 55/hr rate i charge.

flat rate jobs are all about how accurate the "bid" is, because its flat rate, the customer gets charged what they were quoted. anything the customer decides to add-on gets billed T/M @standard shop rate.

some jobs get a better deal than others **cough...anthony...cough**, and that part of the biz is purley political....im sure frank can relate in regards to his media whore.

the prostreet 57 was 100% T/M and the build was somewhere in the 160k range...however that includes a 50k chunk wasted at the 1st shop.

hope that helps a lil

[Josh69]

I'm by no means a rich man, so I'm taking as cautious and direct a route to my build as I can. I don't foresee it being done for much under $35K, and while it will be nicer than 90% of the cars in my area, I'm going about it as inexpensively as possible and doing all the work myself sans the paint and machine work.

Car - $3500
Body shop (buddy deal, 1/2 price) $10K, a non-rotisserie frame off top to bottom, floors, quarters, trunk/wheelhouse outers.
Interior, A/C - $3000
Wheels/tires - $3000
Drivetrain (tranny/rearend) - $5500
Engine $4000
Suspension/brakes $4000

This will be a nice car, good solid, daily driver. It will have all the right features and touches to make it a PT car and handle well, etc. But it won't have any exotic parts. Standard leaf/coil DSE/Koni suspension, C5 or wilwood brakes, 18" wheels, non tubbed, mostly stock interior with the exception of the Arizen seats, it's a 'bolt-on' car.

I can see that doubling with the more exotic chassis, engines and interiors, fabrication work, etc.

I could buy a car for this, but it won't be 'My' car.

[novanutcase]

I could buy a car for this, but it won't be 'My' car.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!:cheers:

John

[syborg tt]

just curious has anyone of the camaro guy's ever figured out what it would cost to buy everything is DSE catalog for there car.

very interested knowing what it would cost

[Stuart Adams]

just curious has anyone of the camaro guy's ever figured out what it would cost to buy everything is DSE catalog for there car.

very interested knowing what it would cost

:yes:, LOL.

[RECOVERY ROOM]

When customers bring in there cars they tell me what's in them,100,000 is about average on pro builds,it does'nt take much to get at that price range with a nice car that can get a pick at the shows.Most guys can rack up 50 grand in parts before labor.street rods or street machines.Just think what the 5 finalists at columbus cost this year.

[ron w]

$350,000

[J2SpeedandCustom]

$350,000

Who cares that 32 is BAD A$$!!! I drooled over that car in Columbus all day Ron. :thumbsup:

[Mick Mc]

Jeff
You got that drool on my camara while I was taking pictures of Ron's 32.

Build cost for my 67 Chevelle

Car I already own $$$
Frame from Art Morrison 15K
Big Block already own $$$
ProCharger 5K
Brakes 2-3K
Wheels and tires 5K
Stainless steel plumbing 2K
Paint (I'll do the body) 10K
Cage...mail order plus some extras 1k
Seats (GTO take outs) 1K
Transmission (T56 Viper ebay) 1K
Misc for trans install 2K
Interior (down payment on Tracy's new vacation home)

Misc fabrication extras, cool new tools for my garage, parts I have build twice or more, being cheated by so called experts, parts that don't fit or don't perform as sold, dumb ideas that won't work as planned, experts who say you're next on the list, but really you're next to last on the list, parts that can't be returned because they were 'special ordered', new girl friend because the old one dosen't like that you spend every moment of every day thinking about your "car", 40K more or less

Emails or phone calls not returned by vendors who you really want to buy parts from (the latest steve morris racing engines) I'm trying to give you money for something you want to sell ((dam I wish I was rich enough to not return phone calls or emails)) PRICELESS


Mick

[novanutcase]

It's actually a very simple formula to determine what a pro build will cost! As follows:

Final build cost = What you thought x 3

See? Easy!

John

[mazspeed]

It's actually a very simple formula to determine what a pro build will cost! As follows:

Final build cost = What you thought x 3

See? Easy!

John


Tell me about it, heh

[MarkM66]

Is your Chevelle done? Are there pics posted? Sounds cool.

Jeff
You got that drool on my camara while I was taking pictures of Ron's 32.

Build cost for my 67 Chevelle

Car I already own $$$
Frame from Art Morrison 15K
Big Block already own $$$
ProCharger 5K
Brakes 2-3K
Wheels and tires 5K
Stainless steel plumbing 2K
Paint (I'll do the body) 10K
Cage...mail order plus some extras 1k
Seats (GTO take outs) 1K
Transmission (T56 Viper ebay) 1K
Misc for trans install 2K
Interior (down payment on Tracy's new vacation home)

Misc fabrication extras, cool new tools for my garage, parts I have build twice or more, being cheated by so called experts, parts that don't fit or don't perform as sold, dumb ideas that won't work as planned, experts who say you're next on the list, but really you're next to last on the list, parts that can't be returned because they were 'special ordered', new girl friend because the old one dosen't like that you spend every moment of every day thinking about your "car", 40K more or less

Emails or phone calls not returned by vendors who you really want to buy parts from (the latest steve morris racing engines) I'm trying to give you money for something you want to sell ((dam I wish I was rich enough to not return phone calls or emails)) PRICELESS


Mick

[andrewmp6]

i have done a couple cars i have owned i tired to set up a budget but i always ended up with double spent on the car.sometimes you wont find tell you striped it. i have found some bad repairs from bondo filled holes to sheet pop riveted over a hole in a floor pan.

[syborg tt]

I've documented every penny spent on my project - right down to nuts, bolts & washers.

[deuce_454]

it seems that a realistisc cost always comes out at whatever you think is a realistic budget multiplied by three... and the same goes for the time....

[LL CUSTOM]

Thanks for all the imput guy's. I have to say your alot more open mind and have a more realistic grasp of what is involved and the cost of these prodject's than on some of the other forum's I have posted question's simaler to this. As a shop owner I know that these price's are a realality not a fantasy. But I still can't help but wonder how long we can keep going before the investment destroy's the hobbie as we know it:rolleyes: . Well good luck to all of you and have a great day :thumbsup: later Larry :cheers:

[ron w]

Who cares that 32 is BAD A$$!!! I drooled over that car in Columbus all day Ron. :thumbsup:

thanks alot next time your around come say hello and I'll let you sit in it ron

[ironworks]

About 5% of the cars get 98% the magazine coverage and the other 95% of the hobby goes completely unnoticed by the general public. About 30% of the cars at shows are built entirely by professional shops. Only a few of those are super high dollar ground breaking builds. The other 70% do the majority of work themselves either at home or trailering the car to this shop and that shop for certain segments of the build.

I really realized how big this hobbie is beyond the pros pick area at Columbus. There were about 10 million cars I never saw @ Columbus.

All of this is in my own opinion. Of course

Rodger

[Mick Mc]

Ron W

I took pictures of your 32 at Columbus (you commented on the pictures) and the car is outstanding (duh, it was a top five).
What was your motivation for your build?
I saw the Johnson emblem, and you stated the price, how did you select your builder?
Can you reveal the number of hours in the build?
Was the proximity to you or their past projects or their hourly rate a major deciding factor?

I have met some builders who have the personalities that seems to at least make you feel comfortable about the long term relationship you both are building for the thousands of hours of work.

I met Troy several times and he has the personality to make you feel comfortable. Beside the quality of the final prodect (the waiting list is in the 20's (I heard)) I don't think I can afford that level of build.

I know I have met with or tried to meet with several builders trying to get a feel for how they do things, and their level of interest in my project, and do both of our personalities get along, after all, it is a long term commitment, just curious how you made your decision.



Mick

[Roger Poirier]

I've documented every penny spent on my project - right down to nuts, bolts & washers.

No wonder why that project is NOT finished! Two issues at hand. :yes: The time it takes you to document all that info. Plus the fact you keep a running tab gives you holy crap batman look how much i"m spending! :lol:

R.P.

[ron w]

Ron W

I took pictures of your 32 at Columbus (you commented on the pictures) and the car is outstanding (duh, it was a top five).
What was your motivation for your build?
I saw the Johnson emblem, and you stated the price, how did you select your builder?
Can you reveal the number of hours in the build?
Was the proximity to you or their past projects or their hourly rate a major deciding factor?

I have met some builders who have the personalities that seems to at least make you feel comfortable about the long term relationship you both are building for the thousands of hours of work.

I met Troy several times and he has the personality to make you feel comfortable. Beside the quality of the final prodect (the waiting list is in the 20's (I heard)) I don't think I can afford that level of build.

I know I have met with or tried to meet with several builders trying to get a feel for how they do things, and their level of interest in my project, and do both of our personalities get along, after all, it is a long term commitment, just curious how you made your decision.



Mick
the motivation was Allen Buttons 32 if you haven't seen it it's in the ppg ads in most magazines -I think finding a builder is difficult what type of project would you like to build -

[J2SpeedandCustom]

I think finding a builder is difficult what type of project would you like to build -

I agree. Depending on the type of car there are definitely builders who are above the rest.

I also see what Rodger is talking about everyday. We have quite a few customers that just want a certain portion of a car done. Usually something they can not do or want to do themselves.

My opinion is if you can keep a build around the $50k mark, there are ALOT of people willing to spend that for a project.

[ron w]

[QUOTE=J2SpeedandCustom]I agree. Depending on the type of car there are definitely builders who are above the rest.

I also see what Rodger is talking about everyday. We have quite a few customers that just want a certain portion of a car done. Usually something they can not do or want to do themselves.

My opinion is if you can keep a build around the $50k mark, there are ALOT of people willing to spend that for a project.[/QUOTE


what do you consider a realistic budget for a complete build minus parts

[Mick Mc]

Ron

For all the time I have spent seeking a builder you sure cut right to the final chapter.

My project is a 67 Chevelle. More D-Touring that G-Touring. I have to state that right up front so I don't get letters about how my big block is wa wa wa wa....

New frame to be determined
C6 front suspension, custom upper a-arms and coil-overs all around
Nine inch rear or maybe Quick-change
Big Block size to be determined by size of my future wallet. I already own a couple of big blocks but they don't size up to the current 632's out there
Trans something very cool (not automatic) I've got to have three pedals
Procharger front mounted with intercooler (that will be interesting)
AC from Classic Air (their unit is bigger than anyone elses and I live in the desert)
Brakes 14inch front, 6 piston maybe Alcons. Rears a tad smaller
Tires as big as the fenders will allow (Big Red has 335's in the front)
Interior leather covered race seats ie Calaway C16
Body mods like Johnny51 (you have to get close to see the details)
Trunk has to have enough room to pack my $hit for the Power Tour and a few trips accross the country on other Tours, Not filled up with fuel cells and batteries and speakers

It won't be as quick in the road course as some and not the fastest at the 10.5 Drags but is should be dam FUN and a little scary for others

Maybe I can reach the top 5 in Columbus some year.

Mick

[ron w]

Ron

For all the time I have spent seeking a builder you sure cut right to the final chapter.

My project is a 67 Chevelle. More D-Touring that G-Touring. I have to state that right up front so I don't get letters about how my big block is wa wa wa wa....

New frame to be determined
C6 front suspension, custom upper a-arms and coil-overs all around
Nine inch rear or maybe Quick-change
Big Block size to be determined by size of my future wallet. I already own a couple of big blocks but they don't size up to the current 632's out there
Trans something very cool (not automatic) I've got to have three pedals
Procharger front mounted with intercooler (that will be interesting)
AC from Classic Air (their unit is bigger than anyone elses and I live in the desert)
Brakes 14inch front, 6 piston maybe Alcons. Rears a tad smaller
Tires as big as the fenders will allow (Big Red has 335's in the front)
Interior leather covered race seats ie Calaway C16
Body mods like Johnny51 (you have to get close to see the details)
Trunk has to have enough room to pack my $hit for the Power Tour and a few trips accross the country on other Tours, Not filled up with fuel cells and batteries and speakers

It won't be as quick in the road course as some and not the fastest at the 10.5 Drags but is should be dam FUN and a little scary for others

Maybe I can reach the top 5 in Columbus some year.

Mick

I love a 67 chevelle sound great-
last but not least what is your budget

[notorious1970]

it seems that a realistisc cost always comes out at whatever you think is a realistic budget multiplied by three... and the same goes for the time....


Well said! As far as time, we thought our car would be done quick in about 4 months. That idea turns as you go on through the build. Ideas get bigger, and the time stretches longer and longer. That obviously adds to the $$ it costs too. You start out saying okay im going to spend this much...that rarely happens. If the car starts turning out nice then you just want to add more and more. Addicting!
-derek

[Mick Mc]

Ron
I had a budget but NovaNutcase told me what you expect to pay X 3

So I know my budget is not 1m, but I can see that over time I'm going to be catching you. There is alot more sheet metal on a 67 compared to a 32.

Mick

[ron w]

Ron
I had a budget but NovaNutcase told me what you expect to pay X 3

So I know my budget is not 1m, but I can see that over time I'm going to be catching you. There is alot more sheet metal on a 67 compared to a 32.

Mick

Now what is your goals for the car trophies or driving

[Mick Mc]

I want both, but I hate to clean and I love to drive so a trophy right after paint and then driving driving driving.


Mick

[Paladin]

I think everyone underesitmates the cost of their project. I initially thought I could have my 1965 Fastback built for $80,000 and ended up spending double that. I also got screwed by my first shop, so you could chop $20,000 from that total, but your still in for $140,000. Parts wise I was not surprised because I precalculated ordering everything. Yep, every nut and bolt. Don't just say engine:$4,000. get into the details, you'll find out quick $4,000 is not even slightly realistic for even a budget crate 350. go top down with a catalog. chrome air cleaner $X, decal $X, wing nut $X, filter $x. The bits and pieces really add up! a starter here, pulleys, gaskets, fittings, fuel pumps, etc. Back in the mid 80's you could build a nice mid 60's car for less than a comparable new one (i.e. a mustang) because they were only 20 years old and every little thing did not have to be replaced. Now those cars are 40 years old and odds are everything is shot. A new mustang GT is about $30,000 with a warranty. It would be next to impossible to buy a 65-67 fastback and have it look anywhere close to new for $30,000, let alone compete performance wise with a new one. Ironically, new is now the budget option, and you can finance it!!!!

[ron w]

I want both, but I hate to clean and I love to drive so a trophy right after paint and then driving driving driving.


Mick
I also hate to clean, love to drive-my car was not as clean as it should have been but I figures that if I cleaned it all weekend and didn't win it would be worse then if I drove it all weekend and didn't win- I thing one of the reasons I won top five was I was seen driving the car all over and a couple of small hole shots But I think you can do both without a crazy budget the key is to stick to the theme of the car and plan everything up front which I think you have done and don't add

[ironworks]

My opinion is if you can keep a build around the $50k mark, there are ALOT of people willing to spend that for a project.

The problem I find is that most guys think they can have a top 5 car for the 50 large. It is possible to build a kick ass car for 50 grand in parts. In this months PHR John Parsons said he had 78,000 in parts and 4000 hours to build. So in my book that car is 78,000 + (whatever his time is worth) X 4000 hours. So at 40 bucks for an at home guy, you have 160,000 plus 78,000. I would say that thing is easily worth 238,000.

As far as the 3 times you original estimate statement, I think It depends on how rational your 1st idea of a budget is. If you think You gonna win the ridler on 50,000, YOUR PROBABLY HIGH..... But if you think you could be in the great 8 for 350,000, your realistic with the right builder and hopefully lucky.

The best thing you can do is really plan out what you want and then decide can I even afford what I'm wanting now let alone what my builder is going to invision. Or even what your going to invision when we get the car on the ground for the first time. The more you dream about it the more expensive it gets. The sky really is the limit, the only thing tying you down is your wallet andyou and your builder's creativity and passion.

just my 2 cents, which is over my budget.

Rodger

[J2SpeedandCustom]

what do you consider a realistic budget for a complete build minus parts

Is this a trick question? just kidding... I think your in the $30k - $100k+ depending on the complexity of the build. A simple muscle car driver to a full on dream machine like yours Ron. :thumbsup:

We really try to work with the client and make their dreams a reality. I learned early on that minding the money during a build is very important. You can spend money on something that doesn't "improve" the build. Like polishing and chroming an entire motor it looks unbelievable, but that's money that could go to improving the chassis, or a new parts, etc.

[J2SpeedandCustom]

The problem I find is that most guys think they can have a top 5 car for the 50 large. It is possible to build a kick ass car for 50 grand in parts.
Rodger

Oh yeah you run into those guys every once in a while. :lol: There is a certain amount of education for the owner when building their car. Unless they have build one full out there is alot that goes into a complete build. It's hard to explain that you can spend $5k just on fasteners, hoses, connectors, and misc parts.

[ron w]

Is this a trick question? just kidding... I think your in the $30k - $100k+ depending on the complexity of the build. A simple muscle car driver to a full on dream machine like yours Ron. :thumbsup:

We really try to work with the client and make their dreams a reality. I learned early on that minding the money during a build is very important. You can spend money on something that doesn't "improve" the build. Like polishing and chroming an entire motor it looks unbelievable, but that's money that could go to improving the chassis, or a new parts, etc.


Mick If you want to know what I look for in a builders that helps me choose- read this statement above that's what I look for I would Like to work with them- I also Like larry from LL customs from talking to him

[ironworks]

To me the bottom line is that it should be fun and memorable. No matter how much you spend. I have built cars that were low budgets for the coolest guys and had way more fun working on them, instead of the million dollar car for the guys who just don't get it.

There is no better fruits of labor then when an owner and builder get on the same page of what the owner wants and the builder is just as excited about it. And seeing the look in the owners eye when he sits in the car for the first time and hits the key and you see his eyes light up.

[novanutcase]

There is no better fruits of labor then when an owner and builder get on the same page of what the owner wants and the builder is just as excited about it. And seeing the look in the owners eye when he sits in the car for the first time and hits the key and you see his eyes light up.

That's gonna be me in about 6 months! Right Rodger! Rodger?? Hello??:_paranoid

Actually, that happens to me everytime I go up to see the car and discuss what part of the build we should tackle next!

Ron? Not to discount any of the other builders that you mentioned but I think you should talk to Rodger if you have a project that you want to do. I can say that I am beyond happy with the build as it has progressed even though I am beyond my budget but that is my fault! I've approved and insisted on many of the things that we have added from the original budget. I kind of knew it would turn out this way in the back of my mind anyways since I know how I am in these types of situations.

John

[LL CUSTOM]

Mick If you want to know what I look for in a builders that helps me choose- read this statement above that's what I look for I would Like to work with them- I also Like larry from LL customs from talking to him


Ron
Thank you for the comment. Again thank you all for your insite's. As it has been said before you start adding all the bit's and pieces as well as the time [time in many case's no one think's of or consider's, such as refitting door's after the new seal's go on that are way to thick :willy: ] Money has alway's come hard for me, but I still have had dream's so when customer's come in with dream's and an unrealistic pocket book's. I at least spend the time talking with them, educateing them on cost and as was stated before send them home with a catalog just so they can add up some of the cost themselves. Many time's we can find a common ground for what can be accomplished on there budget's and the job still get's done and they still enjoy the hobbie. We do alot more 20 to 50,000.00 dollar partial builds than anything. I have never personely had a customer pay me a 100,000.00 to build a car. Those kind of budget's don't exsist in cental Wisconsin. if they did I would not have sold the big shop recently and moved back to the one next to my rural home. We cannot all afford to build great 8 contender's but that's okay, as long as I can roll a few gear's and feel myself being set back in the seat, and can stand in my shop and see either mine or someone else's dream's comeing true I will be one happy camper.:cheers: later Larry
www.llcustomperformance.com

[jeff s]

When there's over 80k in parts, its hard to build a complete project for 100k.
We had a couple freshly pro-built cars come in that didn't drive right, terrible handling, braking, over heating, etc. Owners spent another 15k to get it working right. My best customers are those who've had at least a couple cars built elswhere.
When I built Cadillac Attack as a home builder in 1994 in my garage, sending out only the paint, seats, I spent about 3 times what I figured, 45k.
Lots of good points in this thread.

[LL CUSTOM]

When there's over 80k in parts, its hard to build a complete project for 100k.
We had a couple freshly pro-built cars come in that didn't drive right, terrible handling, braking, over heating, etc. Owners spent another 15k to get it working right. My best customers are those who've had at least a couple cars built elswhere.
When I built Cadillac Attack as a home builder in 1994 in my garage, sending out only the paint, seats, I spent about 3 times what I figured, 45k.
Lots of good points in this thread.

Jeff
I agree totally about customer's who have gone some place else before and I seem to get alot of customer's who show up after they have spent a fortune at another shop and then hope I can straighten everything out. Many time's I should have said NO but I did what I could to make them realize their dream,s. And when their happy and showing off their pride and joy, Well you can not possibly buy that kind of advertizeing. :thumbsup: I just wish they would have come to me first instead of triing to get a deal.:rolleyes:
later Larry
www.llcustomperformance.com

[HRBS]

Lots of good points in this thread.

That’s an understatement!
I think I am going to refer all potential customers to this thread !:D
It’s very interesting because this shows both sides (paying customer and builder) of the story.
I think the key word we are missing is QUALITY.
You can not place a monetary budget without the word QUALITY.
I think anyone could build a budget car on $25k-$30k.
But neither the owner nor the builder would be happy in the final product.
I know when a potential client comes to me, the very first question I ask it what their overall budget is. I then find out their likes and dislikes and design something WE BOTH like within that overall budget. Of course that number is a $+/- due to the nature of the business. I then find out what their monthly budget breakdown (what they can afford ea. month) and the project progresses at that pace until completion. Change work orders are a must or they will only make problems down the line. Whether it’s a change resulting from findings in the build process or at a customers request (something that differs from the original scope of work), those are key to everyone being on the same page financially.

[LL CUSTOM]

Steve
Could not have said it better. It is an ongoing process of communication and shareing of information no mater what the budget is.:thumbsup: And we all have to be happy with the end result or it was not worth doing!
later Larry www.llcustomperformance.com

[novanutcase]

That’s an understatement!
I think I am going to refer all potential customers to this thread !:D
It’s very interesting because this shows both sides (paying customer and builder) of the story.
I think the key word we are missing is QUALITY.
You can not place a monetary budget without the word QUALITY.
I think anyone could build a budget car on $25k-$30k.
But neither the owner nor the builder would be happy in the final product.
I know when a potential client comes to me, the very first question I ask it what their overall budget is. I then find out their likes and dislikes and design something WE BOTH like within that overall budget. Of course that number is a $+/- due to the nature of the business. I then find out what their monthly budget breakdown (what they can afford ea. month) and the project progresses at that pace until completion. Change work orders are a must or they will only make problems down the line. Whether it’s a change resulting from findings in the build process or at a customers request (something that differs from the original scope of work), those are key to everyone being on the same page financially.

Hi Steve!

I saw one of your cars at Columbus and it was really nice! That was one of yours wasn't it?:D

As a paying customer and one who has done home built and pro shop partial builds, I guess it really boils down to what your customer expects for his money. In my case, when I have done the home builts I was really happy as I could say I did it myself although I always knew it could be done better at a pro shop since I don't weld and fabricate metal everyday. On the Pro shop partials it would come out great but I was never fully satisfied when I would do my part as it just never compared next to the Pro shop work! That's why on this build I decided to let the Pro shops handle everything while I supplied the cash and the vision. It has been a decision that, although expensive, in the end I am much more satisfied than if I would have attempted anything like this at home or as a Pro shop partial. Why? Because my expectation was to build as bad ass a car as I could and the only way to do that was to employ someone that had the skills that I don't possess to make that vision a reality!

John

[HRBS]

I saw one of your cars at Columbus and it was really nice! That was one of yours wasn't it?:D

And you didnt say hello ? :(
Yeah... we had two cars out there. The orange Nova and the Green 64.
Both of those were my vision that the customers shared. Most importantly what they were able to afford. In both cases I was happy as a builder with the end result. But in retrospect there was much more I would have loved to do to both to put them "over the top". But that oh so important line must not be crossed or I'd be working for free or worse yet building a customers car with some of my own money. That’s the hardest part I have, to determine where that line acceptably lies when dealing with a budget.

[novanutcase]

And you didnt say hello ? :(

Did you see how many cars were out there?:wow:

I actually did stop for a second and looked around to see if you were around but you must have gone for a potty break or, even better, headed out to one of the "First Aid Stations" for a cold one!:lol:

John

[HRBS]

I actually did stop for a second and looked around to see if you were around but you must have gone for a potty break or, even better, headed out to one of the "First Aid Stations" for a cold one!:lol:

Now I remember.... I think I was in line for a BBQ. I think I stood there for 2hr, 32 min, 16 secs while they went to kill the cow!
But Mmmm worth it !

[novanutcase]

Now I remember.... I think I was in line for a BBQ. I think I stood there for 2hr, 32 min, 16 secs while they went to kill the cow!
But Mmmm worth it !

Shoulda had a sundae!:lol:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g170/novanutcase/Columbus07pics060.jpg

John

[HRBS]

:lol:
I think there is a reason there was no line there :rofl:

[Garage Dog 65]

That's a beer in John's hand, you'll eat anything when you're drunk ....

:lol:

[ironworks]

Come on Dad, that is lemonade Dad.

[Mick Mc]

Who took the picture?

Mick

[ironworks]

You should be able to tell by the picture quality it was taken with a sweet NIKON camera and the downward angle of the picture should tell you the guy is pretty tall. So maybe a tall and sunburnt guy from California.

[Paladin]

Quality is definitely an important issue. Everyone wants a good job done fast and cheap, but you can only have two of the three. If its good and cheap, it won't be fast. If its fast and cheap, it won't be good. If its good and fast, it won't be cheap. Personally I like small shops with maybe two or three guys = less overhead. My builder/fabricator Snow's Hot Rods was 2 guys. My paint/body one guy. My interior Diamond Trim was 3 guys. In every case I would have to say, there is no substitute for experience. These guys were all older, and dare I say it, a dying breed. Each one was more artist than businessman, and when they get a project that can showcase their skills you can see the pride in their work. When you are working with a guy for 2 or three years on a project you get to know them, hopefully become friends. You'll need them later when something breaks!!!!:mad:

[LL CUSTOM]

Paladin
I agree with everything you said includeing about becomeing friends with customer's. The only down fall with becomeing friends with the customer, It is harder to tell them that the budget and the bill just went out the window. :willy: :willy: I have realy enjoyed posting this tread and the reponse from everyone it has been very informative and I intend to print it off to show future customer's because I think it will help to show them what need's to be expected. Everybody have a great day:thumbsup:
Later Larry :cheers: www.llcustomperformance.com

[ron w]

one thing I always told my builder is if you have to put in 14 to 18 hours days to meet a deadline don't If we can't make it there working normal hours and eating dinner with your family at night we will just rethink our deadline instead - my friend just killed his builder to go to the salt flats this week- I called to tell him I arrange it with the salt flats to run the race next year I just don't believe 5 or more guys on a car works to produce a great driving car

[LL CUSTOM]

one thing I always told my builder is if you have to put in 14 to 18 hours days to meet a deadline don't If we can't make it there working normal hours and eating dinner with your family at night we will just rethink our deadline instead - my friend just killed his builder to go to the salt flats this week- I called to tell him I arrange it with the salt flats to run the race next year I just don't believe 5 or more guys on a car works to produce a great driving car

Wish I had more customer's who where understanding like that. I tend to find the customer's who want it done yesterday but inturn add something new every other day. But we are working to change that, With the sale of the big 10,000 ft shop, going back to the 4000 ft shop next to my house and cutting back to just me and my main guy Rich, we will only take on one customer car at a time. When that one is finshed ,we will move on to the next one. The rest of the time we will consentrate on the stack of personel prodject car's I have aquired over the year's and put them up for sale. I think getting back to my root's and designing and building my own concept's will be much more enjoyable. :thumbsup: have a great day everyone:D :D
Later Larry www.llcustomperformance.com

[ironworks]

one thing I always told my builder is if you have to put in 14 to 18 hours days to meet a deadline don't If we can't make it there working normal hours and eating dinner with your family at night we will just rethink our deadline instead - my friend just killed his builder to go to the salt flats this week- I called to tell him I arrange it with the salt flats to run the race next year I just don't believe 5 or more guys on a car works to produce a great driving car

I agree 100% Ron, I think the quality of the car suffers. It is funny how after the big event that the car was rushed to build for. It usually winds up back in the builders shop for longer then the bulder had it before the event fixing all the bugs and issues that could maybe have been delt with had they slowed down on the build. Shot look in the back ground of American Hot Rod, Those cars never leave.

[Garage Dog 65]

Hi Guys,

I know for the home builder we wouldn't have access to or experience with the phases of a project, the types of work required in each phase and a reasonable work hour and/or parts costs for a project. I found a spreadsheet from another persons project that did a decent job of identifying all the areas involved. I modified it and have been using it for my project. How do you pros do it ? Do you guys have or share some type of standardize form or spreadsheet, do some of the component/materials manufactures provide some of that stuff - or does everyone just come up with their own deal ?? I can dump the actual costs from my spreadsheet and share that here - and it sounds like Marty has a spreadsheet going for his truck. That might help the young guy home builder - or - someone looking to build a bigger project with shops likes those here at Lat-G.

Jim

[nvawgn]

would be great if people can post their cars, i don't visit to frequently so i have no idea which cars and prices you are refering too, thanks...

[ccracin]

Hi Guys,

I know for the home builder we wouldn't have access to or experience with the phases of a project, the types of work required in each phase and a reasonable work hour and/or parts costs for a project. I found a spreadsheet from another persons project that did a decent job of identifying all the areas involved. I modified it and have been using it for my project. How do you pros do it ? Do you guys have or share some type of standardize form or spreadsheet, do some of the component/materials manufactures provide some of that stuff - or does everyone just come up with their own deal ?? I can dump the actual costs from my spreadsheet and share that here - and it sounds like Marty has a spreadsheet going for his truck. That might help the young guy home builder - or - someone looking to build a bigger project with shops likes those here at Lat-G.

Jim

If you guys could post the sreadsheets it would be great. They are great for "whatifs". I am starting one for our project, but having an example would be very helpful.

[Jimmy Sean]

I would be interested in the spreadsheets also. I have one that tracks what I have bought but would like to compare with others for a total project and the areas within that total.

Thanks

[Garage Dog 65]

Just noticed we can't post a spreadsheet. I'll drop it into a PDF tomorrow and post.

It's not very impressive since I haven't gotten very far in my project - so there is a bunch of open sections and duplicated info, but it will give you an idea of what I thought would help the home builder estimate costs and get their arms around all the tasks/costs associated with a build. The spreadsheet doesn't include a Labor Est/Actual column - but that could be added. I've seen the forms that Coddington uses and they're similar in capturing a bunch of stuff in a structured, organized, and itemized way. Scott talked about doing something like this on one of the site's builds so that we could use it as a sample. I'd be glad to try to compile a complete list with everyone’s input to get this large groups experience and knowledge into something helpful and usable. Or maybe people aren't interested - which is cool too.

Jim

[NOVA]

I would be interested in that xl or pdf file too.thanx

That would be a good idea for a parts supplier or manufacter to provide,they could use it as advertising for there business,and it would be a handy tool for the do it your selfer or business to get estimates and all costs around everything in a easy format.

[syborg tt]

Hi Guys,

and it sounds like Marty has a spreadsheet going for his truck. That might help the young guy home builder - or - someone looking to build a bigger project with shops likes those here at Lat-G.

Jim

yep i have one going i will try to attach it right now.

[syborg tt]

okay had to shrink the file - here goes again

[jeff s]

You were supposed to leave the numbers on the spreadsheet.
LOL

[syborg tt]

You were supposed to leave the numbers on the spreadsheet.
LOL

okay okay here are some of the numbers on my build

Parts $104,383

Labor 1,482 ( so far )

Parts to buy $32,000

Interior
- Somebody put in the good word with Tracy I need another Sponsor

[Steve Chryssos]

.....- Somebody put in the good word with Tracy I need another Sponsor

Just think of all the money you will save by not having a back seat or full length headliner. :lol:

[kennyd]

okay okay here are some of the numbers on my build

Parts $104,383

Labor 1,482 ( so far )

Parts to buy $32,000

Interior
- Somebody put in the good word with Tracy I need another Sponsor

and 4250.00 in cell phone bills
and another 3275.00 in photos

[Garage Dog 65]

Here's the Excel Spreadsheet. I didn't think about zipping it - thanks Marty for the lead and your info ! There are some columns and data tracked that I didn't think about that could be added to this one. If everyone adds in their area of experience and expertise - we should be able to build a pretty accurate generic template that could help the less-experience newbie on their builds.

Coddington's form also has a ton of additional technical stuff for the build - wheel offset, ground clearance, axle flange to axle flange front and rear, etc. Parameters that helps nail down the technical aspects of the proposed build.

How about the Collision Repair shops and the Insurance Adjusters ? I know my local guys have/use software programs that automatically insert labor estimates for them. Maybe that would be a source for some raw data if beneficial.

Just brainstorming.... If you're interested - I'd be glad to do the work to compile all the data into one deal and make that available back to the site.

Jim

[syborg tt]

and 4250.00 in cell phone bills
and another 3275.00 in photos

Don't forget the cost of the

Camera - $250.00
Tripod - $25.00
Compact Flash Cards - $20.00

Cost to ship the Above to Kenny

[ironworks]

I'm working towards what Socal speed shop has. They have a work time table on what work will be done and when. It says how much you pay everyweek and when the project will be done. I cannot believe how detailed it is and planned to the T. But with the money they get for their cars I guess the financial cushion is in there to put 10 guys on some unforseen aspect of a build to keep it on time.

You can tell the shops that have a larger amount of book keepers, because of the paper work organization that has top go into the billing and parts ordering. So cal gets 125 per hour and I'm sure there is 1 hour of bookkeeping for every hour of work. And the customer pays for that in the end I'm sure.

Jim ( garage dog ) do you have the spread sheet you posted in another format, I do not have excel.

Marty, ( Syborg )man you keep track of everything, is it on the list how many times you farted on you trip to tracey's? I did not see it, but I'm sure it is in there.

Rodger

[Garage Dog 65]

Here's the Boyd's list for the chassis part of the build. This is from his set of Hot Rods by Boyd books - and each book in their Planning chapter is the project list. Tim Reumus is the writter.

Rodger, I'll post the PDF next.

[syborg tt]

okay i've got it all figured out.

I'm gonna buy this Car

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D 150149370003%26category0%3D%26fvi%3D1&item=150149370003

Ship it to Ironworks or Killer Kustoms (figure it's already in Canada)

Have them build me a Chassis - protouring style

then send it to Kenny for a Color change

wa la - it's done and i've only spent another 50 grand

[syborg tt]

Marty, ( Syborg )man you keep track of everything, is it on the list how many times you farted on you trip to tracey's? I did not see it, but I'm sure it is in there. Rodger

:thumbsup: 3 x on the way there and 1 x on the way back

[ironworks]

i just sold my 63 with Chris alston stuff a month ago, A day late I guess.

Rodger

[Garage Dog 65]

Sorry guys, I've tried to PDF these - and even zipped them and couldn't get below the max file size restriction. Rodger, I'll E-mail you the PDF versions of the file.

Jim

[68protouring454]

Sorry guys, I've tried to PDF these - and even zipped them and couldn't get below the max file size restriction. Rodger, I'll E-mail you the PDF versions of the file.

Jim
jim, could you please email the excel sheet also, thanks alot

[email protected]
jake

[Garage Dog 65]

E-mails sent guys.

yep i have one going i will try to attach it right now.

Thanks Marty !!! Got a chance to read through your spreadsheet tonight. Tons of good info in there and I appreciated your giving us the opportunity to review it.

AND, what a wicked build man !!!!! :thumbsup:

Jim