69 Camaro front subframe questions

[DOOM]

I'm looking for some input on a aftermarket subframe. What is the best one out there?? DSE is my choice right now ,but just want to get some opinions before I pull the trigger on this purchase.
Thanx Mario

[awr68]

Well sadly that is kinda like asking what cola you prefer. Coke, Pepsi, RC.

Frame wise do you like the OE look of the DSE, or the fabed look of the others? Do you want GM control arms or custom? Why do you want an aftermarket frame? I guess we need to know what your thoughts, plans, and budget is first before we can help.

With that said, DSE, AME, 21st, ST, WD (if you can find a used one) all make nice stuff! Or if you want to upgrade the stock frame DSE and or ATS have kits for that too.

Have you done a search in this forum? There has been lots of talk on this exact topic. One things for sure, we love to help people spend there money!! :)

Oh, and Mario thanks for joining the site and asking for help!

[TT LS2]

Well sadly that is kinda like asking what cola you prefer. Coke, Pepsi, RC.

Frame wise do you like the OE look of the DSE, or the fabed look of the others? Do you want GM control arms or custom? Why do you want an aftermarket frame? I guess we need to know what your thoughts, plans, and budget is first before we can help.

With that said, DSE, AME, 21st, ST, WD (if you can find a used one) all make nice stuff! Or if you want to upgrade the stock frame DSE and or ATS have kits for that too.

Have you done a search in this forum? There has been lots of talk on this exact topic. One things for sure, we love to help people spend there money!! :)

Oh, and Mario thanks for joining the site and asking for help!

I agree with awr68. There are numerous variables that would affect this descision. I personally did NOT want the weight and the bulk of the stock GM frame in my vehicle. I also wanted rack and pinion steering. My idea was to build (with the help of a few good buddies) a pro-tourng type of Camaro that was extremely light and that could contend with the Z06, Dodge Viper, Porsche Carrera, etc. I was told by alot of people (some that knew and some that had no clue) that it would cost more to alter the stock frame to get the results that I desired. I have a Martz Chassis. I would advise doing research...alot of it! Jim Meryer as well as Art Morrison have NICE subframes for first gen Camaros for a decent price. Good luck!:thumbsup:

[DriverzInc]

We have done two cars now using Chris Alston's Chassis Works front subframes, and have BEEN very happy with their quality, appearance, and overall engineering that they have put into their products. And they were both shipped within a couple days of the order. Give us a call and we can talk more about their subframe with you. It can be ordered complete with rack and pinion, Wilwood disc brakes, tubular arms, and Varishock adjustable (single or double) shocks. Very nice stuff.

Courtesy of their website:

https://www.cachassisworks.com/images/7701PKGid.jpg

"Direct bolt-on-clip for '67-69 Camaro, Firebird, and '68-72 Nova. The frame is factory welded in our special fixture. It is laser cut, formed and welded out of 7 gauge steel. Front clip keeps the tire in the stock location, there is ample room for up to a 17"x8" front wheel. You will reuse the factory radiator core support and bolt it into the front clip. Your front bumper, radiator, and grille will bolt back in the original location with the weld-nuts fabricated into the frame. We manufacture the billet rack-&-pinion to match the suspension crossmember width. When you add the Street Machine front suspension package to the clip, this assures you will have perfect suspension geometry (unlike our competitors who only have "Mustang II" suspension crossmembers and tell you they will fit the Camaro, Firebird, and Nova). The engine is mounted in the stock location, with billet side mounts or motor plate and mid plates. The package includes welded frame with all suspension mounting points; mid-plate brackets; emergency brake cable mounts; hardware and fasteners; and 104-page photo-illustrated instruction guide. Billet motor mounts or motor plates; and bolt-in mid-plates; urethane or aluminum body bushing; clutch pivot shaft bracket; rubber inner fender splash guards, and bolt-in subframe connectors are optionally available."

[mazspeed]

I have seen both Art's and DSE and both are the best 2 I have seen for an over the counter sub. I have also recently seen some others that are not up too par.

[tyoneal]

FWIW:If you really want to run the thing you might take a look at Jeff Schwartz. He races and builds super handling cars. I'm taking a hard look at what he can do for my ride. He can tailor something just for your wants and needs.

Here's some poop about him:

Jeff Schwartz, a native of Minnesota and long time resident of the Chicago suburb of Crystal Lake Illinois, has been an automobile and motorcycle enthusiast his whole life. Subscribing to Hot Rod Magazine and learning to weld when he was 12 years old, Jeff went on to become an accomplished machinist. Starting his racing involvement as a Motocross rider in 1974, Jeff competed in an average of 36 AMA Sanctioned events per year, winning many awards on his Puch and Monark, motorcycles equipped with is own custom designed long travel suspension systems. Spending most of his career managing automotive parts and equipment manufacturing plants, Jeff raced whenever possible.

His automobile racing involvement started when Jeff won the National Council of Corvette Clubs Midwest Regional Championship both in Overall Points and Speed in his very first year of competition. A few years later SCCA Chicago Region awarded Jeff the 1982 Rookie Driver of the Year Honors after setting numerous track records and winning numerous national events, including the June Sprints, once again in his very first year of this type of competition. Jeff drove and set-up various types of race cars from four and six cylinder front wheel drive Sport Compacts to V8 powered GT1 Corvettes and IMSA Camaro's. He was also featured in several Goodyear Tire magazine ads and was mentioned in racing articles in Car and Driver, Motor Trend and Sports Car magazines after his stellar year including Pole Position at the SCCA Run offs. Jeff moved on to IMSA Pro Races in 1983 setting fastest race laps, leading and finishing on the podium at several events receiving his first television exposure. He travelled to Circuit Paul Ricard in France late in 1983 to try out for a full time ride with Renault Racing in Europe, Jeff came close to earning the ride that was ultimately given to Gerhard Berger, who later went on to F1 fame.

After returning to Motocross for a few years, Jeff tried his hand in Motorcycle Roadracing in 1995 finishing 2nd in his first event and 4th at his second event at Daytona International Speedway during Bike Week. His first race win came in his third race at Road America followed by a bad crash while leading at Brainerd International Raceway, effectively ending Jeff's motorcycle racing career. Jeff designed and manufactured a motorcycle racing product called Works Stand which recieved rave reviews from the Motorcycling Press and was used by several Factory Racing Teams. This product also was included with the very limited $50,000 Harley Davidson VR1000 sport bikes. Jeff was involved with several of the factory motorcycle racing teams and was a pit crew member of the winning Yamaha World Superbike team at the 1998 Daytona 200 with rider Scott Russell helping to set several records in the process: most wins by a rider, most wins by a manufacturer, fastest 2 tire change pit stop (6.3 seconds).

Although not his primary focus, drag racing has been a big part of Jeff's passion for performance. Having made thousands of passes down the quarter mile, primarily as a tuning tool for verifying power combinations and launching techniques. Jeff has won numerous awards in bracket competitions both on two wheels and four.

After building custom cars and motorcycles as a hobby for 26 years, many of which have been seen in major magazines, in 2004 Jeff decided to help others build their dream cars.

This vast competition experience, which includes engine building and chassis set-up, separates Schwartz from his car building peers. Jeff's combinations have not only proven themselves on cross country events like Hot Rod Power Tour, but have also won numerous track events and magazine shootouts. If you want total Extreme Performance, equally at home on the street or blasting around your favorite racetrack, contact Schwartz Extreme Performance.

Here is his web site. He is also a sponsor of this site.

http://gmachinechassis.com/

Good Luck,

Ty O'Neal

[ProdigyCustoms]

Well, Again. I will post my EXPERIANCE. I highlight experience because I have be fortunate enough to have install almost all the available subframes in our high volume Pro Touring shop. I also sell (4) different brands of subframes, so I DO NOT make any financially motivated opinions. The DSE and Art Morrison have been the clear best G Machine chassis I have installed. I truly believe neither has any advantage over the other in performance. As my friend Anthony said, it is a matter of what you like for looks. There is another production frame, 21st century I have not installed and do not sell that I believe may be a equal, but I have no personal experiance to back that so I cannot speak on it in comparison to the others.

Second choice (s) would be either Speedtech or Chris Alston. I have been fortunate enough to have installed the Very First Chris Alston Camaro subframe sold, and also installed the Very First Speedtech subframe. Both of these frames are excellent and offer a good solution to getting a R and P, and trick frame under the car. The Alston is fantastic for a street / drag car, and is my first choice for this type of build. The CA is of the highest quality, but is not on the level of the top 2 for a G Machine. The Speedtech is a awesome strong frame, trick looking and of the best quality, solves the R and P issue, and is a killer choice if you already have a modded factory frame and want to reuse you triack factory replacment arms. Both these frames are a lot less money, and both have a few minor "concessions"

To further develope my opinion, I have also had the chance to have installed Martz and Fatmans aftermarket subframes.

IMO opinion, from my personal experiance, If your willing to spend $6500 or so, it is between DSE and Art Morrison for me because I KNOW they both are killer.

If your budget is $5000 or so and you are not going to race the hell out of this thing, you would be very happy with the Chris Alston or Speedtech.

We sell all (4) frames mentioned, and will not sell any frame we do not use.

All the other frames not mentioned Fatman, Heidts, Scott's TCI, Martz, etc. are not even open for discussion. All these others are change for the sake of change.

NOW, I just received spy shots of a new frame coming that is pretty hard core, and looks like it has the best numbers yet, and may muddy the waters. It does not come from a big name, but has some big names behind it on the engineering side. I do not think it is quite ready to be released, and I cannot speak anymore on it quite yet. As with the others, I need to get my hands on one (I would like to) and be able to give a REAL WORLD opinion like the others.

Feel free to call me and discuss your project. I do free tech calls for these forums and work with builders and shops all over the world helping spec out components and combinations for their projects.

four zero seven 832 1752

[comp-spec]

NOW, I just received spy shots of a new frame coming that is pretty hard core, and looks like it has the best numbers yet, and may muddy the waters. It does not come from a big name, but has some big names behind it on the engineering side. I do not think it is quite ready to be released, and I cannot speak anymore on it quite yet. As with the others, I need to get my hands on one (I would like to) and be able to give a REAL WORLD opinion like the others.

Feel free to call me and discuss your project. I do free tech calls for these forums and work with builders and shops all over the world helping spec out components and combinations for their projects.

FRANK
If were talking about the same subframe It should be interesting when it gets released
Lots of work into it to get it right

[awr68]

NOW, I just received spy shots of a new frame coming that is pretty hard core, and looks like it has the best numbers yet, and may muddy the waters. It does not come from a big name, but has some big names behind it on the engineering side. I do not think it is quite ready to be released, and I cannot speak anymore on it quite yet. As with the others, I need to get my hands on one (I would like to) and be able to give a REAL WORLD opinion like the others.

Feel free to call me and discuss your project. I do free tech calls for these forums and work with builders and shops all over the world helping spec out components and combinations for their projects.

four zero seven 832 1752[/QUOTE]

FRANK
If were talking about the same subframe It should be interesting when it gets release
Lots of work into it to get it right[/QUOTE]

Yep exciting stuff indeed!! Cant wait to see it!!

[lil427z]

i have the martz , dse , in my camaros they both work well . if i were to do it all over again i would go with jeff schwartz full frame . but all make good frames.
rick k:cheers:

[TT LS2]

i have the martz , dse , in my camaros they both work well . if i were to do it all over again i would go with jeff schwartz full frame . but all make good frames.
rick k:cheers:+1
Andy Martz is a really cool guy to deal with! That alone is priceless. There are several companies that offer frames but how many of them have EXCELLENT customer service? I shopped around for a long time and made several calls to all of the makers and must admit, Andy Martz was the most helpful, patient, knowledgeable, fair person of them all. He never once talked bad about his competitors! All in all, he's a classy guy/businessman/fabricator!:thumbsup:

[awr68]

Good to hear! FWIW, I've had the same experiance with DSE and AME.

[DOOM]

Well sadly that is kinda like asking what cola you prefer. Coke, Pepsi, RC.

Frame wise do you like the OE look of the DSE, or the fabed look of the others? Do you want GM control arms or custom? Why do you want an aftermarket frame? I guess we need to know what your thoughts, plans, and budget is first before we can help.

With that said, DSE, AME, 21st, ST, WD (if you can find a used one) all make nice stuff! Or if you want to upgrade the stock frame DSE and or ATS have kits for that too.

Have you done a search in this forum? There has been lots of talk on this exact topic. One things for sure, we love to help people spend there money!! :)

Oh, and Mario thanks for joining the site and asking for help!
Thanx Anthony
Well to answer your questions. I will spare no expense to make this care perfect. The budget is whatever it takes to do this.One of the thing that I read on one of the posts, you can only run a surtain offset wheel on some of these frames. I plan on putting 19's on this car and I like my wheels to have some dish. Now can I do this with one subframe and not another I do'nt know.This is one question. I want to go as big as I can up front with these 19's. Can I run 19's at all up front without doing major mods to the wells,is another question. I know how I want this car to look (STANCE) low.I will be listening to all input. I'm not one of these people that ask questions and advise and do the exact opposite!!I'm on this forum for a reason,and thats to learn. And from what I've read and seen I think I'm in good hands.I will be doing 99.99% of this project myself ,I own my own collision shop.I just need to get the best advise to get me in the right direction!!!
Thanx Mario

[ProdigyCustoms]

Mario, A lot of the "lip" on the wheel will depend greatly on brake choice / caliper clearance, and also the way the wheel is built. We just finished this car with 19s fromt and rear, and got plenty of lip. As I said, if you want to discuss, feel free to call.


http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/ProdigyCustoms/DSC_1073.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/ProdigyCustoms/DSC_1070.jpg

[DOOM]

Mario, A lot of the "lip" on the wheel will depend greatly on brake choice / caliper clearance, and also the way the wheel is built. We just finished this car with 19s fromt and rear, and got plenty of lip. As I said, if you want to discuss, feel free to call.


http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/ProdigyCustoms/DSC_1073.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/ProdigyCustoms/DSC_1070.jpg
Frank
Thats exactly what I'm looking for dish wise front and back!!!!Again this is why I'm here. I PMend you I'll be talking to you soon.
Mario

[David Pozzi]

I'd rate the DSE, Morrison, and perhaps the Alston subs as my favorites.
Some of the others I'm not that familiar with such as the 21st Century or Schwartz.
I feel the Martz sub is too light and weak torsionally for good handling. It may drive well under light loads, but if hard cornering is important, you would have to brace it, and/or tie it into a full roll cage structure. I have exchanged a few emails and forum posts with them and hope they will beef up their Pro-Touring sub. They seem like very nice people.

Most good subs (torsionally) are not much lighter than stock, I'm talking about the bare sub which on a Camaro is 110 lbs. Some weight is saved by using a rack and pinion, Aluminum or tube A arms, spindles or brakes.

As an example, a Camaro lower control arm is 11 lbs, so how much weight is there to save? Corvette aluminum arms and spindle will save weight, but steel components are going to be very close in weight to stock. Speed Tech, Global West A arms are as heavy as stock A arms, maybe even a bit more. I'm not saying you can't save weight, but only a little can be saved from the actual sub, the rest is either steering or in the spindle and brake assemblies. The stock cast iron hub and rotor plus caliper is where a lot of the weight is.
David

Here's some added info:
FIRST GEN CAMARO SUBFRAME WEIGHT additon list POWER STEERING
Bare sub 110
knuckle assys (stock single piston disc) 92
springs 22
A arms - upper 20
A arms - lower 22
Shocks 6
Ctr link and tie rods 17
Trans Crossmember 10
Sub total 299

PS box, hoses, pump, pitman 44
TOTAL 343
=============================================
FIRST GEN CAMARO SUBFRAME WEIGHT additon list MANUAL STEERING
Bare sub 110
knuckle assys (stock single piston disc) 92
springs 22
A arms - upper 20
A arms - lower 22
Shocks 6
Ctr link idler and tie rods 17
Trans Crossmember 10
Sub total 299

man steering box with pitman 16.5
TOTAL 315.5

subframe post
http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20801

[comp-spec]

Mario, A lot of the "lip" on the wheel will depend greatly on brake choice / caliper clearance, and also the way the wheel is built. We just finished this car with 19s fromt and rear, and got plenty of lip. As I said, if you want to discuss, feel free to call.


http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/ProdigyCustoms/DSC_1073.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/ProdigyCustoms/DSC_1070.jpg
Frank
Awesome car looks badasss
I like this bird alot

[comp-spec]

Thanx Anthony
Well to answer your questions. I will spare no expense to make this care perfect. The budget is whatever it takes to do this.One of the thing that I read on one of the posts, you can only run a surtain offset wheel on some of these frames. I plan on putting 19's on this car and I like my wheels to have some dish. Now can I do this with one subframe and not another I do'nt know.This is one question. I want to go as big as I can up front with these 19's. Can I run 19's at all up front without doing major mods to the wells,is another question. I know how I want this car to look (STANCE) low.I will be listening to all input. I'm not one of these people that ask questions and advise and do the exact opposite!!I'm on this forum for a reason,and thats to learn. And from what I've read and seen I think I'm in good hands.I will be doing 99.99% of this project myself ,I own my own collision shop.I just need to get the best advise to get me in the right direction!!!
Thanx Mario
DOOM
Definitely give Frank a call he knows alot about this and he'll get the right one for you. No expense spared has of right now I think its Art Morrison or DSE HANDS DOWN good luck picking its hard to decide

[awr68]

Frank was that car at SEMA!?!?!?!?! j/k!! Love Lisa's car!!!! :)

[TT LS2]

Mario, A lot of the "lip" on the wheel will depend greatly on brake choice / caliper clearance, and also the way the wheel is built. We just finished this car with 19s fromt and rear, and got plenty of lip. As I said, if you want to discuss, feel free to call.


http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/ProdigyCustoms/DSC_1073.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/ProdigyCustoms/DSC_1070.jpg
What is the off-set and wheel sizing on the bird? It looks great! What type of rear suspension does it have also, if you don't mind me asking?!?!?!?

[ProdigyCustoms]

The rear suspension is a Air Ride Air bar and I now the rear wheels have a 5" backspace, the front backspace I need to check my notes

[TT LS2]

The rear suspension is a Air Ride Air bar and I now the rear wheels have a 5" backspace, the front backspace I need to check my notes
Okay, okay...who makes those rims? One word....NIIIIIIICE!!!!!!!!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Those are our new Forgeline TA3P wheels. We have a set on the way for our 2000 WS6 TA Convertible in full chrome.

Here they are

http://www.forgeline.com/wheels/ta3-chr.jpg

[tyoneal]

Those are our new Forgeline TA3P wheels. We have a set on the way for our 2000 WS6 TA Convertible in full chrome.

Here they are

http://www.forgeline.com/wheels/ta3-chr.jpg
=================================

Frank:

Very Tasty!!

Ty