stun guns, pepper spray

[camcojb]

well, I've had it.:censored: Just had one of my employees beat up and robbed again last night. This is the sweeper guys, who have to work during the night, sweeping parking lots. And they have to get out of their trucks to blow the curbs and sidewalks, and to change trash bags, and this seems to be when they have problems.

In 19 years we've had a few skirmishes, one truck stolen from the driver, and a few beatings. Haven't had an issue in a while, but last night we did. I'm going to get each of them pepper spray (to hopefully knock down from a distance), and then a stun gun if need be. Looking at the one million volt mini stun guns, easy to carry and plenty of voltage. Any ideas how long the batteries last, or if it's better to get a rechargeable? And if rechargeable and not used, how often does it need to be recharged again? Any recommendations?

Jody

[mazspeed]

Jody, give me a call. Ill have you chat with my friend who is a security specialist and an ex 20 year military guy. You should talk with him. I'm sorry that this has happened to you guys again.

[Stuart Adams]

That sucks. F ing people, wish you could carry a 44 mag. and blow em away.

[awr68]

Sorry to hear this Jody, it's bad enough they have to work nights but to be scared to get out and do their job just isn't right! Tell him we hope for a speedy recovery! Do what you have to!!

[mazspeed]

Hey Jody, I just talked to my buddy and he was worried about the law suits that could happen via tazers. Pepper spray is considered non lethal and you could not be sued if you provided this protection for your employee's, but with tazers you could be sued and or your business could be sued by the family of the person who was tazered in the event that he died during the event of being tazered. He also said that if your guys wanted to buy themselves knifes, and proved that THEY bought them and not you, then that would be a way for you to not have liability in case someone was stabbed in self defense. But he was leary about that because it would have happened on company time. He said that you should consult your insurance company and a business lawyer to determine if this is legal and if they could carry knifes. Some are legal and some are not. I think having someone show them how to use and or carry pepper spray would be the way to go. It's cool that you look out after your guys, I wish more people-company's cared as much as you do about the guys who work for you.

[lil427z]

jody , get them guns. the bad guys have them.
rick k

[tyoneal]

Hey Jody, I just talked to my buddy and he was worried about the law suits that could happen via tazers. Pepper spray is considered non lethal and you could not be sued if you provided this protection for your employee's, but with tazers you could be sued and or your business could be sued by the family of the person who was tazered in the event that he died during the event of being tazered. He also said that if your guys wanted to buy themselves knifes, and proved that THEY bought them and not you, then that would be a way for you to not have liability in case someone was stabbed in self defense. But he was leary about that because it would have happened on company time. He said that you should consult your insurance company and a business lawyer to determine if this is legal and if they could carry knifes. Some are legal and some are not. I think having someone show them how to use and or carry pepper spray would be the way to go. It's cool that you look out after your guys, I wish more people-company's cared as much as you do about the guys who work for you.
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I feel for you all in, "The Peoples Republic of Kalifornia".

The employee needs to have, "His Own Idea", go buy a pistol, wait five days, pick it up and have the means to defend himself properly after hours. They are sitting ducks with anything less than that. Most of the time the bad guys will leave if they know you have the means to fight back, and you don't even need to fire your gun. If the bad guys do intend on killing you, without a gun, getting in trouble with the cops will be the least of your problems.

In the meantime you put in the employee handbook explicitly forbidding any weapons on the job. Make everyone sign a copy of this new rule acknowledging that they have read and understood it, and know it is your policy under penalty of immediate job termination for them to posses ANY type of weapon while on the clock, or on your property.

Your cleared, they can do their job with getting the crap bet out of them, and the bad guys can go hassle someone else.

I'm sorry this sounds so, "Cowboy", but each person has to decide whether they are going to be a possible victem, or are going to take responsibility for their own safety. It's as simple as that.

It works pretty good here in Texas.

Ty

As they say here if you carry and don't have your carry permit, "It's better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six".

[mazspeed]

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I feel for you all in, "The Peoples Republic of Kalifornia".

The employee needs to have, "His Own Idea", go buy a pistol, wait five days, pick it up and have the means to defend himself properly after hours. They are sitting ducks with anything less than that. Most of the time the bad guys will leave if they know you have the means to fight back, and you don't even need to fire your gun. If the bad guys do intend on killing you, without a gun, getting in trouble with the cops will be the least of your problems.

In the meantime you put in the employee handbook explicitly forbidding any weapons on the job. Make everyone sign a copy of this new rule acknowledging that they have read and understood it, and know it is your policy under penalty of immediate job termination for them to posses ANY type of weapon while on the clock, or on your property.

Your cleared, they can do their job with getting the crap bet out of them, and the bad guys can go hassle someone else.

I'm sorry this sounds so, "Cowboy", but each person has to decide whether they are going to be a possible victem, or are going to take responsibility for their own safety. It's as simple as that.

It works pretty good here in Texas.

Ty

As they say here if you carry and don't have your carry permit, "It's better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six".

Only if it was that easy Ty, but none of that would fly in California. Texas is a better state, and I wish it was like that here, but you can only carry your gun place to place in a locked box in your car with your ammo being in a different place in the car. The only way you could carry a side arm for a civilian is too have a special license granted by the state, showing just cause of why you need such a weapon. It's very rare and very hard to get. In Texas you can shoot and kill robbers coming out of your neighbors house and not have to answer for it. There is just too many laws in this state that just don't make any sence for the average person for personal protection.

[70 chevelle]

What would it take to change their job title to security? I'm sure it's not easy but their has to be a loop hole somewhere, there always is. Just an idea. Good luck.

[Spiffav8]

My wife works for the Police department here in Vegas and she suggests that you contact the local police department. They might be able to help.

While I understand the desire to arm your people, you could be getting into some serious hot water. It would suck but an armed guard on the job site or more than one guy in the truck might be the safest way to protect your people. In the long run it might also be the cheapest.

[tyoneal]

Only if it was that easy Ty, but none of that would fly in California. Texas is a better state, and I wish it was like that here, but you can only carry your gun place to place in a locked box in your car with your ammo being in a different place in the car. The only way you could carry a side arm for a civilian is too have a special license granted by the state, showing just cause of why you need such a weapon. It's very rare and very hard to get. In Texas you can shoot and kill robbers coming out of your neighbors house and not have to answer for it. There is just too many laws in this state that just don't make any sense for the average person for personal protection.
===========================
Frank:

I understand that is the law, however I would simply not obey it. My and my families safety and health are worth more to me, than worrying about being caught by the police.

Since I would only be sweeping the parking lot at night, or other times like that, I wouldn't worry about the police hassling me, while I had it.

I know it probably makes me a bad person, but being able to protect myself effectively harms no one. Yes the penalties can be bad, but given a first time offense, and getting a decent lawyer. I bet a fine and probation is all you'd wind up with.

As I mentioned before, "I have decided to take responsibility for my own safety".

....and, "It's better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six".

Ty

Below are my reasons, right or wrong for my stance. I also want to mention that we didn't live in the ghetto at the time or ever. The police said for instance when stealing cars, thieves take public transportation North, steal a car and drive it back to their neighborhood where it is stripped and set on fire.

Please keep this in mind when you read the following. (I'm not implying that the carry Law necessarily would have stopped the following crimes, but it would have been nice at the time to at least have a chance of taking care of yourself.)

In the past before our carry laws were passed,

My Mother's house was robbed 3 times.

My Brother was Car Jacked at Gun Point and told to drive down to the bad side of town, then robbed of his wallet and clothing, down to his underwear and kicked out of his car.

My Grandfather was a night worker at a Hotel. A guy came in and at Gun Point, robbed the hotel and robbed my Grandfather, then shot him AFTER, he had complied. He was 69 at the time. He did survive thank God.

My Father had his car stolen. He walked up on them by accident while they were doing it. They got the car started then attempted to run him over with it.

The Girl I was dating in this time period had her Great Aunt Raped and Killed by a low life that eventually got the death penalty for it. (This was in New Mexico I think) Her father was a Minster and it really devastated the family, especially the Father because what he was taught, and actually having to deal with this type of thing personally, gave him a breakdown during the trial. It was bad.

While in Graduate School, my car was in the Parking lot at school, and two guys broke into it and were attempting to hot wire it, when a security guard chased them off. They tore the hell out of my car, and pulled a gun on the security guard before running away.

My father had his car stolen from a gated community, where of course it was ruined when they found what was left of it. It was his Mom's and kind of special to him.

So far, none of us have had anything like this happen......yet. Since the Carry Law passed. (Knock on Wood)

It's not uncommon now about every other week that a Robber or Rapist in the D/FW area is shot and injured or killed, by the soon to be victim. These types of crimes have slowed down thankfully.

I personally cannot sit around and take the chance of this or something worse happening to me or my family.

I have a carry permit and use it when I feel I have a need to. Before it was passed, many people carried often in their car, and/or on their person when the occasion came up where there was a higher crime rate in the area.

I know I'm biased, but this is the reason I have the perspective I do.

I don't even want to start on the abuses of the Second Amendment, but I'm sure you know how I feel about it.

[mazspeed]

Ty, I agree with you 100%. But Jody runs a business and there are some laws that he knows he must follow to some degree. He's a pretty responsible guy. But you sound a lot like me, as if it was me, Id shoot first and ask questions later. My name is Mike by the way. :D

[tyoneal]

Ty, I agree with you 100%. But Jody runs a business and there are some laws that he knows he must follow to some degree. He's a pretty responsible guy. But you sound a lot like me, as if it was me, Id shoot first and ask questions later. My name is Mike by the way. :D
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Mike:

Sorry about putting the wrong name. I don't know where my head was. Well let me re-phrase that, I do know where it was thus the mistake.

I'll try to keep things straight in the future.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Best Regards,

Ty

[mazspeed]

====================================
Mike:

Sorry about putting the wrong name. I don't know where my head was. Well let me re-phrase that, I do know where it was thus the mistake.

I'll try to keep things straight in the future.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Best Regards,

Ty


No worries at all Ty. :thumbsup:

[camcojb]

thanks for the feedback guys, several good ideas. As far as beatings, there have been some but again there's three trucks running every night and this is over a period of 19 years, so looked at that way it's pretty infrequent.

However, these guys have worked for me 15+ years and I don't want them hurt. They seem to have less problem with this situation than I do. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to at least have them somewhat safe.

I've run two guys per truck in the past, but they do not like it as it requires me to add stops to each route, making them longer. I can't have supervisors or other sweeper trucks meet at the centers when they're arriving as the routes are all in different areas, and each truck goes to several different centers every night. If they just went to one or two stops each then it logistically may be possible, but that is not the case here.

If nothing else this further motivates me to keep growing the electrical lighting maintenance side of my business, so I can drop the sweeping and move these guys over there.

Jody

[awr68]

Jody, us that personally know you, know that you are a great guy and hearing how you worry/care about these guys proves it! I think they need some sort of protection. If you drop this side of the business, that doesn't cure the problem, the next contractor will still have issues...these thugs need stopped!

It will all work out I'm sure but remember one beating is too many!!

[Blown353]

Ugh, that pisses me off to no end. I had a run in with low-lifes recently too (my daily driver was keyed and had stuff poured on it Christmas Eve right in front of my grandmothers house while we were eating dinner.)

Unfortunately, being that we live in a litigious society (and an especially extreme version of that here in California) I would consult some legal types and make absolutely sure you are not opening your business or yourself to any kind of liability should you decide to provide your employees a means to fight back.

Anything beyond non-lethal means (and I would avoid escalating business-provided means beyond pepper spray) would be up to the individual employee but even then I am unsure how that would play out legally should they ever need the services of their defensive means of choice-- being they would be on the clock in a company vehicle probably opens you up to liability even if they use their own device(s) to defend themselves... which is why you would need to consult someone in the legal field.

It's a sad state of affairs when you can end up serving time just for defending yourself.

Situational awareness is very important... it sounds like a very poor piece of advice, but it really is important.

Things like this are why I'd like to have a concealed weapons permit... but I've been denied twice now. I'm in a non-CCW friendly county (as are the majority in CA) and I'm not a politician/celebrity/etc nor do I have any police reports regarding situations that I've been involved in that would carry some weight in the application process, so I'm "not worthy."

I'm not offering any advice here, but I will state the California law...

It is unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on one’s person or in a vehicle while in any public place, on any public street, or in any place where it is unlawful to discharge a firearm.(Penal Code § 12031(a)(1).)

Keeping the above in mind, if you do not have a concealed weapons permit and are caught carrying a loaded handgun that is registered to you, the first time offense is a misdemeanor and you lose the weapon. 2nd time offense is a felony, as is the 1st offense if the weapon is not registered to you.

Also, there is this exception to PC12031...

Any person carrying a loaded firearm, if otherwise lawful, when he or she reasonably believes
his or her person or property is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the loaded
firearm is necessary for preservation of the person or property during the time interval
following notification of the local law enforcement agency when reasonably possible,
and prior to the arrival of its assistance. (Penal Code § 12031)(j)(1).)

However, that would only provide an exemption from carrying the load weapon in a public place (i.e. the sweeping sight) after the police had been notified but prior to their arrival. So you have to call the cops and then you can try and defend yourself.

It's a messed up state, isn't it?

And even after all that, should one of your employees either obtain a CCW on his own or choose to "walk the line" and carry on their own I'm still unsure as to the legal ramifications for the business and business owner (you.) If they are only pulled over by a cop and the weapon discovered I'm fairly certain that the employee would be the only one facing legal issues, but if the employee actually has to use the weapon while on the clock things may be very different.

[Blown353]

ccw in california is 99% impossible to obtain.. i checked into when i was thinkin of relocating


Actually, it's county-specific. Most of the rural counties are very liberal with issuing permits. If I lived 30 miles east then I could just apply and I'd be given one; a friend lives in that county and it's pretty much shall-issue. Both he and his wife were granted CCW permits with zero hassle.

[mazspeed]

Actually, it's county-specific. Most of the rural counties are very liberal with issuing permits. If I lived 30 miles east then I could just apply and I'd be given one; a friend lives in that county and it's pretty much shall-issue. Both he and his wife were granted CCW permits with zero hassle.

It's state specific. I was told this by a friend who is in homeland security.

[Blown353]

It's state specific. I was told this by a friend who is in homeland security.

It is state specific but you must be issued the permit by the head of law enforcement in your specific county of residence; it it not a global state office that issues the CCW permits, but rather one of the law enforcement chiefs in your county of primary residence. In my case, the past sheriff was not very receptive to issuing the permits. (granted he was also found guilty of a couple of felonies himself, but that's another matter....) I only have two non-law enforcement friends in my county who managed to get their permits; ones owns several on-location ATM machines at private businesses and carries lots of cash on him for work, and the other is a farmer who gets lots of stolen cars dumped & burned on his property late at night and he has had several documented encounters with these thugs while out checking irrigation.

Me being a "regular citizen" just wanting to have the option to carry legally in order to defend myself was not enough of a reason to be granted a permit by our previous corrupt Sheriff (he was indicted and convicted of several felonies.) My place of work is in a somewhat rough area of town and I sometimes have to go down late at night to check on some 24/7 environmental testing equipment when it calls me with an alarm condition; I used that as my justification for requesting a CCW but was denied. Now that we have a new Sheriff who is a genuinely nice guy with a level head I'm going to try again and see if I get a warmer reception.

Just look here and see the issuance percentages for the various counties here in CA. Some are pretty sad, others are not bad at all:
http://californiaccw.org/forums/list.page;jsessionid=4E7480DD212B7CD4363406BA80516 A6D

[Spiffav8]

It is state specific but you must be issued the permit by the head of law enforcement in your specific county of residence; it it not a global state office that issues the CCW permits, but rather one of the law enforcement chiefs in your county of primary residence. In my case, the past sheriff was not very receptive to issuing the permits. (granted he was also found guilty of a couple of felonies himself, but that's another matter....) I only have two non-law enforcement friends in my county who managed to get their permits; ones owns several on-location ATM machines at private businesses and carries lots of cash on him for work, and the other is a farmer who gets lots of stolen cars dumped & burned on his property late at night and he has had several documented encounters with these thugs while out checking irrigation.

Me being a "regular citizen" just wanting to have the option to carry legally in order to defend myself was not enough of a reason to be granted a permit by our previous corrupt Sheriff (he was indicted and convicted of several felonies.) My place of work is in a somewhat rough area of town and I sometimes have to go down late at night to check on some 24/7 environmental testing equipment when it calls me with an alarm condition; I used that as my justification for requesting a CCW but was denied. Now that we have a new Sheriff who is a genuinely nice guy with a level head I'm going to try again and see if I get a warmer reception.

Just look here and see the issuance percentages for the various counties here in CA. Some are pretty sad, others are not bad at all:
http://californiaccw.org/forums/list.page;jsessionid=4E7480DD212B7CD4363406BA80516 A6D



Glad I live in NV. It took me 7 hours to get my CCW. :thumbsup:

[mazspeed]

It is state specific but you must be issued the permit by the head of law enforcement in your specific county of residence; it it not a global state office that issues the CCW permits, but rather one of the law enforcement chiefs in your county of primary residence. In my case, the past sheriff was not very receptive to issuing the permits. (granted he was also found guilty of a couple of felonies himself, but that's another matter....) I only have two non-law enforcement friends in my county who managed to get their permits; ones owns several on-location ATM machines at private businesses and carries lots of cash on him for work, and the other is a farmer who gets lots of stolen cars dumped & burned on his property late at night and he has had several documented encounters with these thugs while out checking irrigation.

Me being a "regular citizen" just wanting to have the option to carry legally in order to defend myself was not enough of a reason to be granted a permit by our previous corrupt Sheriff (he was indicted and convicted of several felonies.) My place of work is in a somewhat rough area of town and I sometimes have to go down late at night to check on some 24/7 environmental testing equipment when it calls me with an alarm condition; I used that as my justification for requesting a CCW but was denied. Now that we have a new Sheriff who is a genuinely nice guy with a level head I'm going to try again and see if I get a warmer reception.

Just look here and see the issuance percentages for the various counties here in CA. Some are pretty sad, others are not bad at all:
http://californiaccw.org/forums/list.page;jsessionid=4E7480DD212B7CD4363406BA80516 A6D

That's weird, Ill have to show him that website. I would only assume that it's state ran or approved then. Don't know. Ill find out. it says my county is 0.01 percent so count me out.

[the camtender]

Texas cc permits are honored by about 15-20 other states. I travel to about 6 other states on a regular bases and never have to change up how I'm going to protect myself and family.I haven't check with Cailf.,don't think it would make a difference to me if I was was planing a visit :patriot:
**just saying ****

[rwhite692]

Jody I'm real sorry to hear about that. Any chance that it may have been caught on a nearby surveillance camera?

What about putting a sign on the sweeper truck that the sweeper truck itself is equipped with video surveillance (like they have in most taxicabs and police cars?) I wonder how much these systems actually cost nowadays...I imagine they are getting cheaper all the time...

[Spiffav8]

Texas cc permits are honored by about 15-20 other states. I travel to about 6 other states on a regular bases and never have to change up how I'm going to protect myself and family.I haven't check with Cailf.,don't think it would make a difference to me if I was was planing a visit :patriot:
**just saying ****


Doesn't Florida work with more than any other? Some thing like 26 states if I remember correctly. I know you can send the paper work to them and get a FL CCW even if you don't live there.

[Bulldog68]

I'd stay away from the stun guns, simply because they only work up close and sometimes that's too late if the suspect gets the drop on your employees. The issues regarding concealed guns pose some legal issues and liability issues for you as an employer, so I'd avoid that route as well, especially in California.

A better option which has been touched on before is the civilian model Taser. It's not necessarily cheap and I don't know how many employees you have working at a time, but if you got one to try and let them have it during the night, it might be a good option for protection. It's designed for application up close, but also has the darts that can be deployed up to a short distance. After deploying it, it's designed to be left behind while the user flees the scene to call 911 and get away from the suspect. When the suspect recovers from being temporarily incapacitated, the Taser is rendered useless and can't be used against anyone else. Even if the suspect grabs it and flees with it, Taser will send you a new one, provided it was used in a lawful manner for protection of your life.

Oh yeah, and don't buy all the media hype about Tasers "killing" people, which would cause liability issues. Granted, we're in California, so liability exists even if you take proper precautions. That said, thousands of officers have been tasered during law enforcement training and nobody has died as a result. I've been tasered and had no ill effects after. It's designed to pulse the muscles and temporarily incapacitate someone, not kill them. The deaths that the media jump on with relation to taser use usually occurred because of secondary factors: suspects' drug use, physical actions during the suspect's flight from officers, fighting with police prior to the Taser use, or pre-existing medical conditions. Unfortunately, the media doesn't address these issues because (a) they're not facts released by law enforcement agencies at the time of the incident, and (b) it's easier to get ratings by attributing a death to the Taser and making controversy. The media makes quotes about the "50,000 volts," but don't address the fact that it's high current (amps) that can kill people, not necessarily the volts.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Good luck with everything...

[tyoneal]

Jody:

I'm wondering if you contacted an Attorney, to go through the acquisition of the signatures if that might increase your chances. Most of them, or their firms know all the Judges and the local Sheriffs in the area. I bet he might be able to get them for you and your employees that are working late, if you approach it from that position, and if your employees can go through a fairly deep background check and come out clean. In addition, since you have the police reports (Hopefully) from the other beatings to use as proof of the Danger to the employees, it might be enough to sway the Sheriff to sign the darn things.

In addition, if the firm was known for being good and tough as hell, it can always be implied that if they didn't sign them after proving a legitimate reason,duly that the Sheriff personally and/or his department could/would incur some of the responsibility should there be a fatality after they were duly warned ahead of time.

Just because they say you can't sue a municipality doesn't mean you can't cause them extreme problems and expense. Plus, if the records of who is already carrying with a license have a similar reasons as yours, now you have prejudice being shown by a politician. (Sheriffs are politicians here for the most part) Politicians hate that kind of problem. (at least here)

It just really blows my mind that laws like that are even constitutional. The bad guys have guns and you can't, "What Dumb ass came up with that?"

It's simply unbelievable.

I am VERY SORRY you and your employees are having to put up with this non-sense. I admire you and respect you for caring about your employees the way you do. I really understand it.

Hang in there and be creative.

With a good lawyer not everyone is created equal under the law.

I do know this for sure, because I have had good luck fighting our city when they got heavy handed with the condemnation laws. You can make it easier for them to do something small, like signing something, just to get you out of their hair, rather than spend all their time having to put up with you.

I wish you success in your efforts of enjoying the benefits, and the safety provided, that the 2nd amendment offers ALL the Citizens of the US.

Best Regards,

Ty

[novanutcase]

I wonder what sort of liability you would have if your employees suddenly became sub-contractors? Of course you would be providing the necessary equipment and they would be providing the sub contracted labor. If they were ever caught with pepper spray or a stun gun then that would be on them. Not that you would want them to be in trouble for carrying protection but just a thought as far as insulating yourself from liability!

John

[Herb68]

I just went through the CCW class here in CA. It is true that the County Sheriff issues (or not) the CCW permits. Once you have one, they are applicable throughout the state (even in San Francisco where they have been banned illigally). Our instructor (a decorated law enforcement trainer) said it will hold up in court if you are caught carrying in S.F. with a valid permit. Some states reciprocate with others, but the cross state relationships are always changing.

All this being said, I wouldn't recommend business endorsed firearms. The criminal will own your business (or their relatives, assuming your aim is good). Here in the Peoples Republic of Califonia, we have even had burglers successfully sue homeowners after falling through a skylight. It makes me sick.

In my latest NRA magazine, I saw an ad for a new pepper spray device made by Kimber that can deliver the spray 22-feet. It looks very much like a flare gun (hunter orange). If someone is stupid enough to rough up workers at night for entertainment, they may turn tail at the sight of what they think is a flare gun. If not, let 'em have it right in the face. Even if they have a hand gun, their aim won't be too good if they can't see!

With some luck, maybe the criminal will fall backward on a sprinkler, become permenantly paralyzed, and that will be the end of it. Hey, I can dream, can't I?

[andrewmp6]

It is nice to see a company care about there workers safety,Yes pepper spray would be ok make sure its the kind that will spray pretty far not the cheapo key chain types.