Best handgun for home protection?

[pjs65]

In the UK are you allowed to even own a handgun??

Can you get a Concealed Carry permit??

I not really sure about that but i think you can get a permit to own a gun , its just something we don't have in general use over here . Here if you own a gun your either in a gun club , need it for your job or a drug dealer , and only a few specialist police units have guns . We do have a bit of a knife problem with the youngsters but generally the laws pretty tight here on any kind of weapon and even to say that you have a gun can get you arrested . I know you guys like your firearms but we find them unnerving and view people with a bit of suspicion for wanting one . Your allowed to carry them and we aren't and to be honest i feel safer with things that way . Pete

[camcojb]

I not really sure about that but i think you can get a permit to own a gun , its just something we don't have in general use over here . Here if you own a gun your either in a gun club , need it for your job or a drug dealer , and only a few specialist police units have guns . We do have a bit of a knife problem with the youngsters but generally the laws pretty tight here on any kind of weapon and even to say that you have a gun can get you arrested . I know you guys like your firearms but we find them unnerving and view people with a bit of suspicion for wanting one . Your allowed to carry them and we aren't and to be honest i feel safer with things that way . Pete

I am glad it's not that way here. :yes:

[Sieg]

or a drug dealer That's where the big problem is for me. I'm not sure how the statistics would play out for the number of drug dealers per capita in the UK vs. US but there are way too many in our community for me to be comfortable without effective defense measures.

If everyone would play by the rules it would be easy........:thumbsup:

[pjs65]

That's where the big problem is for me. I'm not sure how the statistics would play out for the number of drug dealers per capita in the UK vs. US but there are way too many in our community for me to be comfortable without effective defense measures.

If everyone would play by the rules it would be easy........:thumbsup:

I dont know either but its more of a public perception about drug use and gun crime that its on every street corner when it isn't . Generally druggies shoot druggies and i cannot recalled an incident of a drug addict entering a strangers house and shooting them , its more likely to be a family member . We have had a couple of cases of homeowners shooting unarmed burglers and have gone to prison for it , the public have been on the side of the homeowner . We are told that using reasonable force is ok in dealing with burglars but shooting one in the back is not , the public view is slightly more right wing but not much . The murder rate over here is about 1 per 100,000 and most of them are carried out by those known to the victim ,like a spouse . friend or family member . Gun killings here are less than 1 per 1,000,000 and how that compare's to the US i don't know but with those kind of figures arming myself isn't foremost in my mind . Drugs are the real problem here as with anywhere nowadays just look at Mexico , remove drugs and crime could be halved .But i do find guns creepy , just a euro liberal i guess . Pete

[Sieg]

I dont know either but its more of a public perception about drug use and gun crime that its on every street corner when it isn't . Generally druggies shoot druggies and i cannot recalled an incident of a drug addict entering a strangers house and shooting them , its more likely to be a family member . We have had a couple of cases of homeowners shooting unarmed burglers and have gone to prison for it , the public have been on the side of the homeowner . We are told that using reasonable force is ok in dealing with burglars but shooting one in the back is not , the public view is slightly more right wing but not much . The murder rate over here is about 1 per 100,000 and most of them are carried out by those known to the victim ,like a spouse . friend or family member . Gun killings here are less than 1 per 1,000,000 and how that compare's to the US i don't know but with those kind of figures arming myself isn't foremost in my mind . Drugs are the real problem here as with anywhere nowadays just look at Mexico , remove drugs and crime could be halved .But i do find guns creepy , just a euro liberal i guess . Pete
Meth is a big industry in our county and the number of burglaries/robberies associated with supporting the habit is increasing. Crashing residences and robbing at gun point happens too often, especially in the surrounding rural areas where there is literally no law enforcement protection. In the last six to nine months there have been two incidences that the perp's encountered armed residents and were shot............ in the last few months I haven't heard of one break-in. When the perps realize the odds of encountering armed home owners in a region is common the move to an area that offers less resistance before they'll kick the habit that drives the crimes.

The counting jail is releasing inmates lodged on serious felony charges at an alarming rate due to lack of funding which compounds the safety situation.

Perceptions are based on local conditions and personal experiences. I have worked closely with law enforcement over the last 20+ years and know the realities of our area. Reasonable personal safety in our area cannot be supplied by local law enforcement, the numbers per capita are some of the lowest in the US.

[214Chevy]

One of my buddies has a S&W 50 cal.... I had to use my engine hoist to pick it up! He says when he shoots it -- it's "three bucks - three bucks - three bucks...."

:D :thumbsup:

I've shot the 8.75" barreled S&W 500 at night, pretty impressive cylinder & muzzle flash producer. Recoil was less than expected but definitely a hand-cannon. Ballistics wise I'd probably go with a 460 or 480. Any of those big-bores are not something you want to take to the range and shoot a couple hundred rounds with.....unless you're very well medicated. :D

Although I'm excited to finally get it because it took nearly 5 months for it to come in as it was back ordered from Magnum, the manufacturer. Magnum says they cannot produce them fast enough as the keep flying off the shelves. I haven't even shot it yet. I can find any cheap ammo for a .50 cal. The ammo is so gosh darn expensive, I can't justify shooting it up and wasting it at the range. But, I guess I shouldn't be complaining for a gun that was nearly $2000, huh? By the way, I love the S&W 500. That long barrel looks reminds me of Dirty Harry.

[Ketzer]

When guys talk about owning those big hand cannons, I always chuckle and think about the movie Johnny Dangerously. "This goes through armor, the victim, the wall, a tree outside..." "It's an 88 magnum..." (I won't quote the rest since it is HIGHLY inappropriate in respect to current events).



Jeff-

[Shmoov69]

Always loved that movie!!:cheers:

[Shmoov69]

Magnum Research Lone Eagle pistol in 444 Marlin dress. Just got one of these, should be "ok" for defense!! LOL!! Hadn't had the bells to shoot it yet tho!!:guns:

[GregWeld]

I've just now put 600 rounds (Independent brand ball ammo) thru my new Kimber .45 (Super Carry Custom 5") .... and I also bought a couple WILSON COMBAT mags to use along with my Kimber mags... I can tell the difference just loading the mags!

Anyway -- it's taken the 500 to 600 rounds to have the Kimber jam free and running like it should. I'd bought 1000 rounds and stacked 'em up in the safe so I could count what was left to know where I was at. Kimber says 500 rounds for "break in" and they know what they're talking about.

I clean it after every session at the range... and I'm very thorough... and I'm using some glide slide I got from Brian Enos. It's VERY GOOD STUFF... no jams since I started using it and the slide FEELS smoother.

I think I must have a Wilson shown here....


Well -- I can't get the link to work! But it's their CQB Lightrail Lightweight Compact.

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/new/default.asp


so when I'm at the range tomorrow I'll ask them to give me a price. The Seattle Police Range I belong to has super smokin' prices so it will be interesting to see what it's going to run.

[FETorino]

I have Wilson mags for my plane Jane Colt government model and really prefer them over the standard mags.

But for a small 1911 I like the idea of an Ed Brown Kobra carry

http://www.edbrown.com/kobracarry.htm

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/Kobra_zpsc048f30b.jpg

[GregWeld]

Ed Brown makes some nice machinery... but I specifically want a light rail and the smaller (compact) with laser grips for the trailer "camping" nights.

[GregWeld]

ZGVq9D7PyWQ

[Sieg]

There are few critical elements in a 1911 reliably cycling ammunition:
1) Barrel ramp contours
2) Magazine lip contours and dimensions
3) Ammunition overall length and bullet shape (ball, HP, semi-wad-cutter, wad-cutter)
4) Spring rate vs powder charge
5) Operator's grip pressure

[FETorino]

Ed Brown makes some nice machinery... but I specifically want a light rail and the smaller (compact) with laser grips for the trailer "camping" nights.

There are few critical elements in a 1911 reliably cycling ammunition:
1) Barrel ramp contours
2) Magazine lip contours and dimensions
3) Ammunition overall length and bullet shape (ball, HP, semi-wad-cutter, wad-cutter)
4) Spring rate vs powder charge
5) Operator's grip pressure

Yes all good points and 5 may be the most important.

I love my 1911 but for all out drop in the mud reliability I have one of these. And yes it has a light rail.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764993_-1_757896_757896_757896_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/superjinca/SW_zps269c24b4.jpg

[Sieg]

A good friend and S&W collector has an old S&W Model 29 "Mountain Gun" in .45 LC and that gun is special at the range with Federal .45 acp Gold Medal Match ammo. Soft shooting tack-driver! Similar to this one:

http://www.gunblast.com/images/SW-25Mountain/MVC-015F.jpg

I like revolvers but if it's hitting the fan in close quarters I'll take my 1911's.

FWIW - Here's my heavy concealed carry gun I've had for 15+ years, it's been completely tuned.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-vFvSC4g/0/M/i-vFvSC4g-M.jpg

Another long time toy that's pretty effective out to 100yds loaded with 240 grn JHP and 24 grns of 2400.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-JhLfCxR/0/M/i-JhLfCxR-M.jpg

[FETorino]

A good friend and S&W collector has an old S&W Model 29 "Mountain Gun" in .45 LC and that gun is special at the range with Federal .45 acp Gold Medal Match ammo. Soft shooting tack-driver! Similar to this one:

http://www.gunblast.com/images/SW-25Mountain/MVC-015F.jpg



I believe that is the same K frame that the TR is based on.

Everyone needs a wheel gun.

[Sieg]

I agree and Smith has a couple real nice revolvers on the market.

I'd seriously consider this for an everyday carry gun:
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764925_-1_757768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Note the weight, front shorts pocket carry shouldn't be an issue and the ammo is lite. I'd rather get shot with .380 than a 22 mag.

The reason I'd consider it is less than impressive performance with my Kahr.40 using hot loads on a porcupine and raccoon.

[Vegas69]

I put the .45 in the gun safe and now have the 12 gauge loaded up with 00 buck for home defense. Found a nifty place to conceal it too. :D
http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2012/04/why-i-choose-buckshot-home-defense
http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm
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[Sieg]

The effectiveness of a shotgun is hard to argue.

The layout of our home puts the kids at the end of the main/central 30' hallway so over-penetration is an issue. We have heavy plaster walls which helps but it's not stopping buckshot. I'm guessing the wife would probably frown upon one of them getting wounded by over-penetrating buckshot.

I tested T, 1, 2, 4, 6, 7 & 8 shot some in steel, buffered copper, and 3" and decided on 2-3/4" magnum #6 lead. It's pretty vicious at 5-7 yards and reduces the penetration factor. FWIW - The Remington load I use kicks like a mad mule. If penetration wasn't an issue #1 Buck would be my preference.

[barrrf]

.45/.410

Taurus Public Defender POlymer?

[Tony_SS]

I'm sort of partial to my Sub 2000 .40 S&W. Takes Glock magazines.

http://www.survival-spot.com/survival-blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/kel_su2000.jpg

http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2011/09/22/198355_01_kel_tec_sub_2000_9mm_640.jpg

z5rr5tfG7b8

[Vegas69]

The effectiveness of a shotgun is hard to argue.

The layout of our home puts the kids at the end of the main/central 30' hallway so over-penetration is an issue. We have heavy plaster walls which helps but it's not stopping buckshot. I'm guessing the wife would probably frown upon one of them getting wounded by over-penetrating buckshot.

I tested T, 1, 2, 4, 6, 7 & 8 shot some in steel, buffered copper, and 3" and decided on 2-3/4" magnum #6 lead. It's pretty vicious at 5-7 yards and reduces the penetration factor. FWIW - The Remington load I use kicks like a mad mule. If penetration wasn't an issue #1 Buck would be my preference.

Under penetration is a bigger issue in my opinion. If the bad guy can still operate and kill you, your kids are a gonner whether lead flys through the walls or not. I agree that 00 is to heavy for kids in the house, but 6 shot is for pheasant. With a good shot I may add.

[GregWeld]

Cop buddies tell me -- average firefight distance -- 21 FEET.....


Ever see the videos of 2 or 3 people in a firefight at close range and NOBODY gets shot.... Lots of lead flying around - close range... leads going somewhere!


My buddy asked me why the .45? I just said - because If I hit an intruder he IS going to be hurt regardless of where I hit him...That would be my intention. Separately - shoot a .45 at someone - THEY WILL BE SCARED... so even if I miss... they may stop what they're doing. Mission accomplished.

John and Meryl have been showing me lots of techniques for accuracy... THAT to me is the most important part of all of this -- be accurate under pressure - under duress.... Know your weapon. Practice practice practice.

[Vegas69]

I have to say that's where I feel the shotgun really shines for me. I've been hunting with a shotgun since about 10 years old. I feel very comfortable with it in my hands. In fact, my home defense shotgun is my old standby Remington 1100 that I bought with my own money on my 12th birthday. I've cycled 1000's of rounds through it. Startled, out car windows, off balance, you name it.... At 21 feet, done deal...:guns:

[Spiffav8]

Cop buddies tell me -- average firefight distance -- 21 FEET.....


Ever see the videos of 2 or 3 people in a firefight at close range and NOBODY gets shot.... Lots of lead flying around - close range... leads going somewhere!


My buddy asked me why the .45? I just said - because If I hit an intruder he IS going to be hurt regardless of where I hit him...That would be my intention. Separately - shoot a .45 at someone - THEY WILL BE SCARED... so even if I miss... they may stop what they're doing. Mission accomplished.

John and Meryl have been showing me lots of techniques for accuracy... THAT to me is the most important part of all of this -- be accurate under pressure - under duress.... Know your weapon. Practice practice practice.

Greg it's nice to see that you are learning and starting to think more and more. As I have said in previous posts, this is a mental game. Twenty one feet isn't much and even a fat, middle aged guy like me can cover that distance in the blink of an eye. Think you (or anyone) can deploy their firearm before a bad guy would be on you? How do you get the distance you need to get to your firearm and use it?

Like you, I love my 1911 .45! It seems I can't miss the "X" when using mine at the range. HOWEVER.....As you mentioned a gun fight can take place at very close range and no one get's shot. This brings to mind the old saying that the loudest sound in a gun fight is the "click" when the hammer falls on an empty gun. Capacity VS stopping power is a big part of the equation. (and there is a lot that goes into the dynamics of a gun fight) I carry Wilson Combat Mags, so 8 rounds, with one in the chamber. Nine rounds of Speer Gold Dot is a lot of stopping power. Compare that to my SIG P226 (9mm) with the same type of ammo, but now 15 to 20 rounds (depending on which magazine). Which one would give you a better chance of hitting your target or a better chance at a successful out come? In my mind it's a balancing act and one needs the best bang for the buck so to speak.

I'd like to reinforce what you said about practice, practice, practice and knowing your weapon. Additionally, I highly recommend going through part of the mental game and rehearsing (if only in your mind) different situations that you may be forced to use your firearm. What if and how are the two biggest questions. Doesn't matter if you are using a shotgun, handgun or rifle. Truth is you can never be prepared enough for this type of situation.

[GregWeld]

The good news for ME -- is that I have access and have and continue to use the training simulator. I can tell you that NONE of you have any friggin' clue how fast someone can "close" 21 feet... and what your reaction time is. And when presented with shoot no shoot scenarios - you'll have even a better idea of just how weak your supposed "skills" are.

I'm not saying this to challenge anyone -- I'm saying this because it's not only true - but it's SHOCKINGLY true!

In the simulators - I've been sliced... shot... tackled... charged by unarmed little drunk women... Dude?!?! Do you shoot a drunk 5'2" 110 pound woman because she's charging you?? Does she have a knife? That last guy that was just breaking into a car did! And he sliced my throat! I shot him but he still sliced me up!

It's these eye opening experiences which have made me decide not to just buy a gun (the easy part) -- but to practice - to talk to professionals to learn - and to also acknowledge just how friggin' dangerous any seemingly harmless situation can go down. I'm taking the In-Sight tactical training course... and have taken a couple other local training courses. Not only are they kinda fun... it's just nice to be able to trust yourself... learn something... and frankly - when I do something - I like to be "decent" at it.

[GregWeld]

I thought of something else (while driving to Portland today) us "mere mortals" don't think about -- that I've been told now repeatedly by my cop friends... is finding cover. I think most of us have this idea that we're going to wake up in the middle of the night by someone making noises in, or attempting to get in, our houses. So half awake you get up - grab your weapon of choice and go to see what the matter (clatter?) is all about... that is when you're confronted with the element of surprise.

The trained would seek concealment/cover while they investigate the unknown..... while we'd (the untrained) just walk down the hall/stairs... and head for where we thought we heard the noise come from.

The training simulator has all these life size scenarios playing on the screen - AND they can shoot you with pellets! If you're not covered/concealed - prepare to get shot! You took cover but your knee exposed? Prepare to have a bruise there! :bitchslap:

It's that element of surprise - coupled with the total exposure that is going to be your worst nightmare. At least that's what I've been shown.

[Spiffav8]

The Simulator is an awesome training aid! You are very lucky to have access to one. I've used one and yeah....it's shocking!

I'm glad to see that you brought up cover. Big difference between cover and concealment. Best to know the difference.

Greg you bring up a lot of great talking points! I greatly appreciate you doing so. More and more I am amazed at the lack of knowledge people have when it comes to firearms on every level. I firmly believe that education is the key to so much in life, especially when it comes to a life and death subject like owning a firearm.

I hope everyone will seek out training and work to improve not only their skills, but also their knowledge base.

[GregWeld]

Curtis ---

I'm not smarter than anyone else - just luckier. I've got two good guys guiding me on this the whole way. When you have cops with decades of experience -- you get good info. Good access too... and then I've found even more camaraderie and info while at the range. It's truly amazing how these guys are willing to help and to share info IF you show that you're truly interested in learning. It helps too that I have way more time on my hands than I know what to do with. Let's face facts... most people have actual lives to live... they just can't put the time in... where I can get a phone call -- "hey! The sim is open do you want to come down and play?"

The "cover" thing was something I would never think about on my own. Who would? BTW -- the other thing that's being drilled into my little pea brain.... repetition/practice/and repeat again. This stuff needs to be done without even thinking about it when needed. That's why the officers train constantly. They need to just do - not think. No time to think only time to do.

Obviously we'd never train like these guys do - and that would be silly. We'll most likely be lucky enough to live our entire lives without ever having to draw down on someone. Let's hope that's true anyway. But still -- I feel a responsibility to be SAFER because I wouldn't ever want to injure someone accidentally...myself included. The little things like "what's beyond your target"... those things are critical! What if you shoot at an intruder and kill your neighbor? OMG!! How many windows and doors are almost perfectly aligned with the house next door or just across the street? We don't live in walled fortresses. You start popping off high powered rounds... they don't just stop and drop at your property line.

Anyway -- it's all good discussion. It's been very informative to sit and listen... and there's so many things to think about!


:thankyou:

[Vegas69]

Curtis brings up a good point. You can't make the decision to pull the trigger when someone kicks down your door. It needs to be made right now. All the simulating and practicing doesn't mean a damn thing if you won't pull the trigger.

[Sieg]

Under penetration is a bigger issue in my opinion. If the bad guy can still operate and kill you, your kids are a gonner whether lead flys through the walls or not. I agree that 00 is to heavy for kids in the house, but 6 shot is for pheasant. With a good shot I may add.

Ducks at yardage with 28-30" barrel. At 5-7 yards with a tactical barrel my tests resulted in a 6" hole in plywood. Penetration could be upped with steel, Hevishot, or Bismuth. I hope you're not shooting pheasant with magnum loads unless you're making stew with them. :D

[Sieg]

The 21' rule is THE RULE. We practice at the range with the target set at 21' and our weapon in typical conceal carry position a second person advances the target and you have to draw and fire. It reinforces that rule well. You have to be well practiced to place a double-tap.

[GregWeld]

The 21' rule is THE RULE. We practice at the range with the target set at 21' and our weapon in typical conceal carry position a second person advances the target and you have to draw and fire. It reinforces that rule well. You have to be well practiced to place a double-tap.



Siegster....


Going into the sim room for the first time... holstering a weapon EXPECTING that there was going to be foul play.... But in the blink of an eye - you have to recognize - draw - decide that you need to pull the trigger.... That 21' gap is closed and the perp is all over you. AMAZING! As in OMG! So on the next scenario - you get all jumpy and squirt the guy and all he was doing was going for his registration...:lol: :lol: :lol:


By the end of the session -- things actually seem to slow down - your heart rate is better - you on target - you're not as jumpy... you're looking at things completely differently.

So - again.... I can't imagine waking up - dazed and confused - heart rate racing - fumbling for the great protector... it's pitch black...you didn't start this action by lighting the guy up for a traffic stop... so you're unprepared for the situation... and then all it really is.... your daughter is sneaking back into the house. (how many of US have been there done that!!)

[Spiffav8]

I am very impressed with the direction this thread is going. My hope is that the discussion here will encourage people who own firearms to attend some sort of training course (or additional course).

Greg, you're not smarter, but you are putting forth the time and effort to improve you knowledge base. Just the mention of how crazy it was when you first started to use the simulator and now how it almost seems like things are slowing down is proof that you are improving. It's obvious that you are seeing more and more while thinking about 'what if's'. That's huge! It might sound corny, but I really don't care. It brings a huge smile to my face to hear about what you are doing and I am proud of you. Yes you have more free time than...well anyone I know, but there are tons of weekend courses out there. Plenty of gun ranges that are open in the evenings where one can shoot after work. There really isn't an excuse for not practicing. A person can even use a blue gun (or an unloaded one) at home for certain drills.

Todd, thank you for reinforcing my previous statement. I honestly believe that if you are buying any type of weapon for personal/home defense, that decision should be made before you buy your weapon. If you can't or won't use your weapon to take the life of another who is trying to do you or your loved ones harm, then it will most likely be used against you.

By the way Todd, if you would like to join me at the range I'd be more than willing to lend you one of my AR's and you're welcome to shoot any of my hand guns. Give me a call and let me know. Oh and I have something here at the house for you.

[Sieg]

Greg - The friend/foe recognition adds a completely new dimension doesn't it!

That little drill we do at the range really is an eye opener for most gung-ho concealed carry people. If you set the stage you can create a little hype, add a little distraction, and not knowing when the target is going to start advancing and you realize 21' ain't nothing.

Taking a sight picture.....ain't happening.
Coat zipped or buttoned........ain't happening.
Fumbling the draw..........knifed.

You must put a lot of thought into where the gun is placed, what it's placed in, and what you conceal it with.

Practice the moves over and over and over. Clear, grip, draw, and get the muzzle on target asap. I try to have the muzzle rotating up onto the target as soon as it clears the holster/wasteband. My free hand joins the grip during that rotation, and first rounds are discharged without advancing the gun towards the threat. Pretty much like a gunfighter in a quick-draw fight.

Live fire practice and more practice until you can comfortably look the rounds into the center of mass from the hip or sternum height firing position at 15' with a stationary torso target. Once that's comfortable, start practicing on advancing targets. Teach yourself you do not need sights to place accurate shots.

It's a lot of fun and real challenging. :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

Sieg...


The clear and get the muzzle on target has been shown to me... and this is another thing that folks don't think about --- without being shown -- prior I would draw - raise up arms extended - sight.... of course by that time I was already dead. :lol:


None of this is automatic of course... I still want to stand up straight instead of presenting the smallest possible target... and I still want to sight. I've only been in the sim 3 times now... my buddies have probably been in there 100's of times. They see stuff that I don't - you know - like the woman with the grocery cart 50 yards out directly back of the perp... just little things like that <grin>.

I know you've mentioned competition. It would be so much fun! I'm not allowed in the training area with the actual live fire and moving targets. That's police only. I'd love to be shown that area and be able to use it - but it's the busiest portion of the range.

Funny -- if you'd have asked me 6 months ago about owning a handgun I'd have said "Why would I want that?". But it was my friends that said I SHOULD have one given my plans with the new rig. They were aghast that I would park along side an interstate and go to sleep - or pull off into some "area" on a deserted state road somewhere. Since then - I've asked myself why I didn't do this years ago. It really is fun.

My hope is to NEVER have to even think about actually pointing it at someone. But I now know I'll sleep a lot better knowing it's there and that I kinda know how to use it.

+++++++++++++++++



Curtis,


Thanks!!

[Sieg]

Here's a very good read with solid handgun techniques and tips: http://www.worldwidedojo.com/reality-based/articles-by-topic/the-custom-pistols-of-steven-seagal/

People can say what they want about Seagal, but the man is a documented master with a 1911 in his hand. :guns:

[GregWeld]

Really interesting interview/article.

If he is half as wicked with a 1911 as he is with hands and feet... OH MY!

[GregWeld]

I have a new dream..... Is this the perfect handgun for a hot rodder or what!!!











http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Fun%20Fotos/file-20.jpg

[Stuart Adams]

Todd, do you have a special permit to carry in Clarke county, if so how did you acquire it.

[Spiffav8]

Todd, do you have a special permit to carry in Clarke county, if so how did you acquire it.

I know you asked Todd, but I can answer that one for you. It's not a county issue, a carry permit or concealed carry permit is issued by the state. You can get one by attending a course in which you are taught the basic NV laws and required to shoot. Usually around $100.00-ish. NV is an open carry state, meaning you can carry a hand gun on your hip, so long as it isn't covered in anyway. If you are looking to get your NV CCW let me know. Laurie has some great contacts through LVMPD and can recommend someone.

If you have an AZ CCW, NV will honor it.

Here's a good site to find out info about different state laws.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/

[GregWeld]

This is a better website - interactive - to find out what permits (resident or NON resident) will have reciprocity with various states.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/travel/




First pick your HOME state - then just answer the questions as they come up.
For instance - my HOME state is Washington - but I also have a permit in Utah - but it's a NON-resident permit... so I just answer those correctly and the map shows all the CC states in Blue.


I can tell you right now - you'll be EXCLUDED from CC in California and Oregon... (the two states I personally would travel in the most, of course!)

[GregWeld]

I have just registered for the FRONT SIGHT 4 day Defensive Hang Gun training school that takes place in PAHRUMP -- the MONDAY (11/11/2013) after OUSCI

Yes it's spendy @ $2,000 --- and I understand that part with most guys just having spent a small fortune in time and money to go to SEMA... but it'd sure be fun to have others there with me!




http://www.frontsight.com/index.asp?

[GregWeld]

Sorry -- I posted up the wrong link to Front Sight -- it's now corrected. DOH!!

[Spiffav8]

This is a better website - interactive - to find out what permits (resident or NON resident) will have reciprocity with various states.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/travel/




First pick your HOME state - then just answer the questions as they come up.
For instance - my HOME state is Washington - but I also have a permit in Utah - but it's a NON-resident permit... so I just answer those correctly and the map shows all the CC states in Blue.


I can tell you right now - you'll be EXCLUDED from CC in California and Oregon... (the two states I personally would travel in the most, of course!)

Nice link. According to it I can carry in 36 states. :thumbsup:

[Spiffav8]

I have just registered for the FRONT SIGHT 4 day Defensive Hang Gun training school that takes place in PAHRUMP -- the MONDAY (11/11/2013) after OUSCI

Yes it's spendy @ $2,000 --- and I understand that part with most guys just having spent a small fortune in time and money to go to SEMA... but it'd sure be fun to have others there with me!




http://www.frontsight.com/index.asp?


I am attending a class there next month. Haven't used this facility yet, but it seems to be very popular. I'll let you know how it goes. Maybe I'll join you in November.

[Stuart Adams]

Curtis thanks for replying. I have a concealed permit for AZ and Utah. I was under the impression even though it reciprocates with Nevada Clarke county doesn't allow it???

[Spiffav8]

Curtis thanks for replying. I have a concealed permit for AZ and Utah. I was under the impression even though it reciprocates with Nevada Clarke county doesn't allow it???

They do. Now North Las Vegas tires to enforce their City law that says you can't carry a gun, concealed or not, within their city limits even though it's against Nevada state law and illegal on their part. They have a ton of legal problems over this and the Police officers I know from that department will not enforce it. Still...best not to open carry there.

Laurie works for the Las Vegas Metro Police Department here and knows the guns laws VERY well. She even has officers who will call her for advice. lol If you have any questions I know she would be happy to advise you further. PM me and I'll give you her cell number if you'd like.

[GregWeld]

Can you just PM me her number directly -- I have lots of stuff I'd like to "discuss" with her... I'd be willing to pay her attorney bills to dump your sorry azz... and I have a few other proposals she might be willing to listen to. :D

[Spiffav8]

Can you just PM me her number directly -- I have lots of stuff I'd like to "discuss" with her... I'd be willing to pay her attorney bills to dump your sorry azz... and I have a few other proposals she might be willing to listen to. :D

The way she spends money, even you would be broke my friend. There's a reason I'm still working.

:G-Dub:

[GregWeld]

The way she spends money, even you would be broke my friend. There's a reason I'm still working.

:G-Dub:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Good answer!

[GregWeld]

They do. Now North Las Vegas tires to enforce their City law that says you can't carry a gun, concealed or not, within their city limits even though it's against Nevada state law and illegal on their part. They have a ton of legal problems over this and the Police officers I know from that department will not enforce it. Still...best not to open carry there.

Laurie works for the Las Vegas Metro Police Department here and knows the guns laws VERY well. She even has officers who will call her for advice. lol If you have any questions I know she would be happy to advise you further. PM me and I'll give you her cell number if you'd like.




I would think this is completely unenforceable. They (the county or city) could have laws modifying the CC laws of the state - i.e., ban firearms from city parks etc. But to try to override a state license.... Good luck with that.

[Tony_SS]

What do you guys think of open carry? In MO, it's an open carry state, but you just don't see a lot of people doing that. And if you do, chances are people will freak, and you will get harassed. Is this different in your states?

Case in point, someone was doing it here. He got harassed, but also made a youtube of it. The police chief in our town went to the council to get 'open carry' banned in public. I voiced my opinion to my council reps, it ended up being dropped real quick. Because any town law would not override our state laws which allow for open carry.

So how is it in your town and does anyone personally do it?

[GregWeld]

It's funny isn't it --- if a cop is open carry people feel protected.... but if a citizen open carries they feel threatened. Go figure.


If you want to carry - get a CC permit - and don't go around having people freaked out. Why create a problem when you can avoid it so easily.

[Spiffav8]

I would think this is completely unenforceable. They (the county or city) could have laws modifying the CC laws of the state - i.e., ban firearms from city parks etc. But to try to override a state license.... Good luck with that.

There are a lot of gang problems in NLV and I'm sure that's the reason that they have tried this. From what I've heard the state is after NLV over this. Not sure on the details. Not like anyone would ever win money from NLV in a law suit. No one in that city works and the city is broke.

[Tony_SS]

It's funny isn't it --- if a cop is open carry people feel protected.... but if a citizen open carries they feel threatened. Go figure.


If you want to carry - get a CC permit - and don't go around having people freaked out. Why create a problem when you can avoid it so easily.

It's all about the blue costume! :lol:

I have a CC permit. I personally choose not to open carry.

[Spiffav8]

What do you guys think of open carry? In MO, it's an open carry state, but you just don't see a lot of people doing that. And if you do, chances are people will freak, and you will get harassed. Is this different in your states?

Case in point, someone was doing it here. He got harassed, but also made a youtube of it. The police chief in our town went to the council to get 'open carry' banned in public. I voiced my opinion to my council reps, it ended up being dropped real quick. Because any town law would not override our state laws which allow for open carry.

So how is it in your town and does anyone personally do it?


Laurie and I both will open carry from time to time. Depends on where we're going. If it's dinner and a movie we will carry concealed. If I am just out running around town, more often than not, I'll open carry. I'm a shorts and t-shirt kind of guy and it's just easier. No one has given me a hard time about it and in fact a lot of people don't even notice. I am pretty out going and I think that says a lot when people do notice. More females have asked questions than men and honestly that's only been in the last few weeks. The few men who have commented usually make stupid statements. Trying to be cool guys I suppose. I'm sure it's due to the current hype. I've been expecting some negativeness, but there hasn't been any. Yesterday I was in the local gas and gulp paying for my drink and a police officer walked up to the register right next to me. I was wearing my SIG P226 Tactical with a 20 round magazine (Not going to lie...it's pretty obvious). He just smiled. I do my best to be a positive example for responsible gun ownership. I promote gun safety at all times and I am willing to answer anyone's questions, as long as they are respectful. The number one piece of advice I give is training and everyone has been very receptive to that. A positive example can go a long ways as does someone who is willing to share. I have a few friends that where anti guns, that are now gun owners and taking classes. It is very rewarding to see someone who was against guns, educate them self and become a responsible gun owner.

[Spiffav8]

It's funny isn't it --- if a cop is open carry people feel protected.... but if a citizen open carries they feel threatened. Go figure.


If you want to carry - get a CC permit - and don't go around having people freaked out. Why create a problem when you can avoid it so easily.

I don't agree 100% with the last half of your statement. While I don't want people to freak out, I am only willing to go so far to make others comfortable. Others need to respect my rights and feelings, just as I do theirs.

I see a lot of people who carry concealed. It's not obvious, but if you look a lot of people who do carry 'imprint'. I have to wonder how things might be different if all of those people where to open carry. Would we be having the anti gun crazyness we are seeing or would people understand that a gun isn't evil? I honestly think that crime would be way down. Fear of the unknown is very powerful. A person, like an officer, who everyone knows has a gun isn't viewed as a threat. Like any police officer, my gun is carried for the same reason. Protection. Protection against those who would do me or my loved ones harm.

[Tony_SS]

Laurie and I both will open carry from time to time. Depends on where we're going. If it's dinner and a movie we will carry concealed. If I am just out running around town, more often than not, I'll open carry. I'm a shorts and t-shirt kind of guy and it's just easier. No one has given me a hard time about it and in fact a lot of people don't even notice. I am pretty out going and I think that says a lot when people do notice. More females have asked questions than men and honestly that's only been in the last few weeks. The few men who have commented usually make stupid statements. Trying to be cool guys I suppose. I'm sure it's due to the current hype. I've been expecting some negativeness, but there hasn't been any. Yesterday I was in the local gas and gulp paying for my drink and a police officer walked up to the register right next to me. I was wearing my SIG P226 Tactical with a 20 round magazine (Not going to lie...it's pretty obvious). He just smiled. I do my best to be a positive example for responsible gun ownership. I promote gun safety at all times and I am willing to answer anyone's questions, as long as they are respectful. The number one piece of advice I give is training and everyone has been very receptive to that. A positive example can go a long ways as does someone who is willing to share. I have a few friends that where anti guns, that are now gun owners and taking classes. It is very rewarding to see someone who was against guns, educate them self and become a responsible gun owner.

I think its very different out there, than here. We are a smaller rural town of about 12,000, and even though most people are avid hunters in the town, I still think people are very closed minded about personal gun ownership. It's nice to hear there are some good people who successfully carry out there.

[camcojb]

What do you guys think of open carry? In MO, it's an open carry state, but you just don't see a lot of people doing that. And if you do, chances are people will freak, and you will get harassed. Is this different in your states?

Case in point, someone was doing it here. He got harassed, but also made a youtube of it. The police chief in our town went to the council to get 'open carry' banned in public. I voiced my opinion to my council reps, it ended up being dropped real quick. Because any town law would not override our state laws which allow for open carry.

So how is it in your town and does anyone personally do it?
Used to be able to open carry in California, up until a year ago or so. But the gun could not be loaded. :poke: Then several people started doing it just because they wanted to make videos of peoples reactions, followed shortly by a ban on open carry. :rolleyes:

[MrsSpiffAv8]

Personally, my current concealed carry is a Springfield XD 9mm. My new favorite gun though is a Sig P226 9mm. I'm waiting for my renewed CCW to show up, therefore I am now needing to carry open. In Nevada which obviously includes Clark County, I have every right to do so. For more info on Nevada concealed carry check out: NRS 202.3673 You keep your business covered up well enough you have nothing to worry about and no attention will be drawn to you. If you choose to open carry however, yes you may expect Uneducated Joe/Jane Public to freak out or talk...or even call the police. And what the police will ask is: Is this person threatening anyone with the gun? Are they holding it in their hand or is it in a holster? If the answers are not threatening and in a holster then we will put up a call coded: PERSON WITH A GUN, but the priority is just to have an officer drive by, try and locate the person, observe their behavior. If all is fine, they leave. Because they are doing NOTHING WRONG OR ILLEGAL. We also explain this to the callers as well.

Now, for open carry or if a business sees that you are concealed...see NRS 207.200 and this refers to trespassing. The main points are: 1a) Willfully goes or remains upon any land or in any building after having been warned by the OWNER or OCCUPANT thereof not to trespass, is guilty of a misdemeanor. And further down...d) By the owner of occupant of the land or building making an oral or written demand to any guest to vacate the land or building.

Summary: If your asked to leave, just because the law states you can carry...you've been asked to leave someone's property so be a responsible upstanding gun owner and leave. A business or their representative can refuse service to anyone, at any time, for any reason.

Carrying open will open you up for more people also to approach you and ask you questions. Happened to us the other day while trying to shop for cars and furniture. We spent more time talking guns than we did trim levels, gas mileage, reclining sofa, etc. While I am all for talking to anyone about the rights of citizens and educating them on the law, sometimes I just don't mind being stared at and talked about behind my back so long as I'm left alone.

In Nevada, per NRS 202.254 a private person is authorized to obtain background check on person who wishes to obtain firearm...like in a private person to person sale. This is just to ease your mind. It is an OPTION, but is NOT MANDATORY. There is a fee involved obviously. AND, I am not sure if a private sale is covered by the new law as of July 1, 2012 that states if your CCW was obtained July 1, 2012 or later, that you are NOT subject to ANOTHER background check. Any permits issued prior to that date, you will need to have a background check done for any new gun purchases, even if its still valid.

While I am NOT an expert on all this stuff, I do try to keep up as best as I can. If anyone has any questions, let me know. I'll see what I can do.
P.S. Arizona has new gun laws too pertaining to open/concealed carry for residents and NON residents of the state. As long as you are an American citizen. Check them out.

[GregWeld]

Good info Laurie!



I can tell you that if I walked around Bellevue with an open carry -- people would be running away from me... and the cops would be swarming. Nobody here is used to seeing that.

I have CC more so that when (not if) I get stopped in the rig - and they want to inspect or whatever - I'm not going to get into trouble cause I have the Kimber in the console or wherever.

[DBasher]

Without a CCP I was unsure of what to do when in the car, so I asked. I was told by an Everett officer that it's a grey area in this state. (WA.) He said that he had transferred from Alabama and the laws in that state were much more defined. His attitude towards open carry was great and suggested that I get my CCP...and to do it quickly.

No more open carry for me until I get that squared away:guns:

Greg, Bellevue is just a bit sheltered and the officers are a...mm, hmm:happy23: :warning: :sieg:

:cheers:
Dan

[GregWeld]

Greg, Bellevue is just a bit sheltered and the officers are a...mm, hmm:happy23: :warning: :sieg:

:cheers:
Dan




Can you imagine the ruckus if I went into Bellevue Square with the Kimber on my hip.... :guns: :lol: :lol:


I don't care how many permits I have... or even what's legal. I think we have to be very careful about how "others" see us. Discretion is the better part of valur or something like that... and I totally agree.

I was advised by both Mryle and John (my cop buddies) that if I get pulled over - I should hand the cop my drivers license AND my CCP... that I didn't have to "say" anything more than that. It just let's them know that I know and that I "get it" and have "notified" them of the situation.

[MrsSpiffAv8]

In Nevada...I would show my CCW as a courtesy...but it is not required. Also, on new gun purchases, a blue card or registration card comes with it. But you do NOT need to carry this at all times. Only your CCW and your ID.

People are just either ignorant of the laws or its not an area of interest to them so they never do any research.

Kind of like our laws now that everyone is all up in arms about. They freak out about what they don't know and yet NEVER take the time to educate themselves until its too late or the wool is sooooo far pulled over their eyes they will never get it removed.

[GregWeld]

In Nevada...I would show my CCW as a courtesy...but it is not required. Also, on new gun purchases, a blue card or registration card comes with it. But you do NOT need to carry this at all times. Only your CCW and your ID.

People are just either ignorant of the laws or its not an area of interest to them so they never do any research.

Kind of like our laws now that everyone is all up in arms about. They freak out about what they don't know and yet NEVER take the time to educate themselves until its too late or the wool is sooooo far pulled over their eyes they will never get it removed.



Many people remind me of those old fashioned doll cartoons -- where the eyes were just "X"'s....


Personally I'm so angry about, and sick of, hearing legislators -- who SHOULD BE smarter than the man in the street - laying blame on "assault weapons". What f'n idiots.

I was trying to think of the time the three (assault rifles) in my safe -- jumped up and went out on a killing spree... Oh wait! It's PEOPLE that kill people and that seems to be already against the law. Maybe we should just outlaw people???? If only.....

[96z28ss]

I was advised by both Mryle and John (my cop buddies) that if I get pulled over - I should hand the cop my drivers license AND my CCP... that I didn't have to "say" anything more than that. It just let's them know that I know and that I "get it" and have "notified" them of the situation.

I think in Oregon when they pull you over and run your plate they already know if you have a CCP. thats what a cop told me.

[Stuart Adams]

Laurie, thanks for the great info. Concealed in a casino is ok or is that a gray area also? Thanks.

[Sieg]

I think in Oregon when they pull you over and run your plate they already know if you have a CCP. thats what a cop told me.

I believe that's the case, but the few times I've been pulled over I've advised the officer that I'm carrying and have a permit.

I've had a permit in Oregon since '84 and carry frequently and have never had an incident with LEO's, property, or business owners. But I do my best to conceal my handgun with proper clothing. What people don't know doesn't hurt them applies in this situation.

Open carry in Oregon's "outback" has never been an issue and legal for as long as I can remember. Most natives assume locals are armed, primarily to protect themselves from Cougar, Bear, and now Wolves. Simply put, the issues come from metropolitan immigrants, usually well educated except when it comes to a State Law they don't know or agree with. :bang:

[Spiffav8]

I believe that's the case, but the few times I've been pulled over I've advised the officer that I'm carrying and have a permit.

I've had a permit in Oregon since '84 and carry frequently and have never had an incident with LEO's, property, or business owners. But I do my best to conceal my handgun with proper clothing. What people don't know doesn't hurt them applies in this situation.

Open carry in Oregon's "outback" has never been an issue and legal for as long as I can remember. Most natives assume locals are armed, primarily to protect themselves from Cougar, Bear, and now Wolves. Simply put, the issues come from metropolitan immigrants, usually well educated except when it comes to a State Law they don't know or agree with. :bang:

Cougars are a real danger. Especially at some of those 'outback' bars! Last thing you want to get cornered by.

[MrsSpiffAv8]

Not agreeing with the law...That IS the main culprit. Good comment.

Carrying in casinos is definately frowned upon. Keep your eyes peeled to any signage that is posted at the entry doors or in the parking garage, ususally by the elevators. Again, if carrying concealed, don't display any imprint or make it obvious and what they dont see.....(wink wink)

They might just ask you to put it in your car or they might offer you a safe box in the security office. I would kindly refuse both options and go someplace else.

[Spiffav8]

Not agreeing with the law...That IS the main culprit. .


I don't agree with you most of the time. Whatcha gonna do about it? :poke:

[camcojb]

I don't agree with you most of the time. Whatcha gonna do about it? :poke:
brave man....... :peepwall:

[Sieg]

Cougars are a real danger. Especially at some of those 'outback' bars! Last thing you want to get cornered by.

So true, I'd much rather wake up with a hungry wounded Mountain Lion......They smell better and much less chance of wound infection. :D

[Tony_SS]

In Nevada...I would show my CCW as a courtesy...but it is not required. Also, on new gun purchases, a blue card or registration card comes with it. But you do NOT need to carry this at all times. Only your CCW and your ID.

People are just either ignorant of the laws or its not an area of interest to them so they never do any research.

Kind of like our laws now that everyone is all up in arms about. They freak out about what they don't know and yet NEVER take the time to educate themselves until its too late or the wool is sooooo far pulled over their eyes they will never get it removed.

Laurie, thanks for sharing.

I find the above true in most cases, and particularly with the police in general around here. Maybe they are ignorant or maybe they don't care. I do think our town has a good force. Even if they have a retired military tank, at least they aren't roaming the streets in it. :warning: My brother in law is a cop, and he's the one telling me that federal law trumps state law. I had to remind him of the 10th amendment. :rules: I think any officer should be required to be educated on the laws they are supposed to be enforcing. I'll go a step further and suggest that officers should be more like firefighters and remain in the station until they are called upon. :idea: But I digress.

It's one of the reasons I got a Utah permit, because I really did not want my CCW permit to be tied with my drivers license. What does driving have to do with carrying a firearm anyway? Therefor, I would could keep any CCW info on a need to know basis if pulled over. I believe we have the castle law here in MO that states my vehicle, like my home is my property. MO residents can transport and keep a gun in the car as long as its concealed. No permit required.

[MrsSpiffAv8]

For NEVADA...

NRS 200.120  “Justifiable homicide” defined; no duty to retreat under certain circumstances.

1.  Justifiable homicide is the killing of a human being in necessary self-defense, or in defense of habitation, property or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against any person or persons who manifestly intend and endeavor, in a violent, riotous, tumultuous or surreptitious manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person dwelling or being therein.

2.  A person is not required to retreat before using deadly force as provided in subsection 1 if the person:

(a) Is not the original aggressor;

(b) Has a right to be present at the location where deadly force is used; and

(c) Is not actively engaged in conduct in furtherance of criminal activity at the time deadly force is used.

[GregWeld]

-OR-


as the old saying goes....



I'd rather be judged by 12.... than carried by 6

[Spiffav8]

Laurie found this and shared it with me. http://friendorfoe.us/ Great tool!

[Sieg]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/184122_583165831711903_957718460_n.jpg

:rules:

[Sieg]

When seconds count........
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=34a_1317870586

[woody80z28]

Beretta 9mm "black" :_paranoid lol Its the best for 5-15 metres close combat shooting. :cool:

I always loved my black Beretta. Just got a permit to pick up a 9mm variant as well. With the writing on the wall here in NY, I'd like to be grandfathered in.

http://media.motortopia.com/files/141/album_current_shots/449eed0a54d7b/tn_full_100_31522jpg_Thumbnail1.jpg

[96z28ss]

Just bought this Ruger 9mm with laser this weekend,

[GregWeld]

Just bought this Ruger 9mm with laser this weekend,




My son Alex would call that an ankle biter!!


Looks like a nice piece!





While over in SV.... I bought a 1965 Browning Superposed - Belgium made - Pigeon grade - 28 ga over and under.... with skeet barrels. We'll see if I can still shoot clay.

[Sieg]

Just bought this Ruger 9mm with laser this weekend,

Good choice! I know a couple LEO's that use those for "deep cover" backup.

They maybe small and lack a little firepower, but being so convenient and comfortable to carry you'll carry it more often than not and the best gun is the one you have when you need one. :thumbsup:

[Tony_SS]

Just bought this Ruger 9mm with laser this weekend,

Very nice. I love my .380 LCP with a crimson trace. The trigger is long, but once you get used to it they're great to carry.

[96z28ss]

Going to my concealed carry class tomorrow.
Oregon, Utah, and Arizona License. It covers all but 13 states.

Taking the class at http://www.threatdynamics.com/civilian/

[GregWeld]

Old thread wake up!



I want to buy my son a skeet/trap shotgun for Xmas.... The dealer over here handles Beretta and Caesar Guerini.... I'm favoring the Caesar Guerini but don't know too much about them. Anyone familiar with these??


I can tell ya that I'm loving my '65 Browning Superposed 28 ga O/U for skeet...
The workmanship on that shotgun is just amazing compared to the stuff that is new now.

[Sieg]

Old thread wake up!



I want to buy my son a skeet/trap shotgun for Xmas.... The dealer over here handles Beretta and Caesar Guerini.... I'm favoring the Caesar Guerini but don't know too much about them. Anyone familiar with these??


I can tell ya that I'm loving my '65 Browning Superposed 28 ga O/U for skeet...
The workmanship on that shotgun is just amazing compared to the stuff that is new now.
Are you looking at 12, 20, or 28 ga ?

Will he end up shooting more trap or skeet or sporting clays?

Would you be interested in a good used Browning?

Let me know and I'll check on Browning availability. What specific models of Caesar Guerini and Beretta? I'll get a qualified opinion on those as well.

[GregWeld]

Are you looking at 12, 20, or 28 ga ?

Will he end up shooting more trap or skeet or sporting clays?

Would you be interested in a good used Browning?

Let me know and I'll check on Browning availability. What specific models of Caesar Guerini and Beretta? I'll get a qualified opinion on those as well.



Good questions!


Skeet and trap... since the range here offers both - but mostly skeet.


I'd like him to shoot 28 because then I only need to stock cases of that -- but he's a macho man and will want to shoot 12 gauge.

Funny thing about kids.... I shot 19 of 25 with my 28.... he put down 17 of 25 with his 12... I'm throwing about a 1/3 of the lead he is down range... but he still doesn't get that his Daddy is a better shot than he is by virtue of accuracy.


Caesar Guerini -- I like the Maxum Sporting -- 30"


After looking over the wood quality and fit and finish of the higher end Berettas --- I don't think I could own one. The craftsmanship just isn't there.

They have a Browning Superposed at Silver Creek that would make a nice "mate" to mine...


http://store.silver-creek.com/Browning-Superposed-Pigeon-12ga-O-U-Shotgun-p/lel-20.htm


Originally I was just looking to get him a Browning Citori.... But the more I think about it -- I'd rather shoot heirloom quality guns over just ordinary stuff.

[GregWeld]

Sieg ---


This is the other Caesar Guerini I am interested in:



http://www.gueriniusa.com/gun_models/summit_impact/Summit_Impact.shtml

[Sieg]

I believe this is the gun available but with case hardened receiver and upgraded oil finished lumber. Not sure on adjustable comb stock or rib options.

http://www.gueriniusa.com/gun_models/summit_ascent/images/SummitAscent_popup1.jpg

This receiver without the gold.
http://www.gueriniusa.com/gun_models/summit_ltd/images/SummitLtd_popup1.jpg

I would consider their DTS trigger system valuable due to the length of pull adjustment which is standard on the Summit Ascent model.

New DTS trigger system with two trigger pull weight options, take up, over travel, and length of pull adjustments. Factory selective release triggers available in single and double release.

http://www.gueriniusa.com/gun_models/summit_ascent/media/CG_Summit_Ascent.pdf

More info in a couple days..........

[GregWeld]

Hey Sieg -- thanks for the input and the call the other day!

I ended up driving to Boise - a gun shop there - Boise Gun Company... it was only a 5 hour round trip and I had nothing better to do. They are Caesar Guerini dealers -- and get this -- the owner told me they had 6200 guns IN STOCK!! Trust me -- this is one heck of a gun shop. I've never been in one that was so packed -- with guns AND customers! WOW!

Anyway -- he had a CG Challenger Impact 12 ga in stock --- it's an absolutely beautiful shotgun -- heirloom quality stuff -- so I bought that.... AND the coupe d gras..... I casually ask him if he ever gets any Wilson Combat stuff in.... OH YEAH he says with wild looking eyes! I got one last week! Out of 6200 guns he has ONE Wilson Combat in. It is the Professional --- 4" barrel --- .45ACP... all black... and yes, that's mine as well.

Sadly -- they had to send it to Seattle to a FFL dealer because while I have Washington and Utah CC --- that won't get ya a handgun in EyedeeHo. I'm dying to shoot this bad boy!

[Sieg]

Late to the show here.........the rib on that Challenger is going to be a little tall for you isn't it? :underchair:

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/premium_gun_inv/img/128333/hd/128333-08.jpg

When you're passing through we should take a "range break" at the Baron's Den on I-5.

http://www.thebaronsden.com/

[Spiffav8]

Hey Sieg -- thanks for the input and the call the other day!

I ended up driving to Boise - a gun shop there - Boise Gun Company... it was only a 5 hour round trip and I had nothing better to do. They are Caesar Guerini dealers -- and get this -- the owner told me they had 6200 guns IN STOCK!! Trust me -- this is one heck of a gun shop. I've never been in one that was so packed -- with guns AND customers! WOW!

Anyway -- he had a CG Challenger Impact 12 ga in stock --- it's an absolutely beautiful shotgun -- heirloom quality stuff -- so I bought that.... AND the coupe d gras..... I casually ask him if he ever gets any Wilson Combat stuff in.... OH YEAH he says with wild looking eyes! I got one last week! Out of 6200 guns he has ONE Wilson Combat in. It is the Professional --- 4" barrel --- .45ACP... all black... and yes, that's mine as well.

Sadly -- they had to send it to Seattle to a FFL dealer because while I have Washington and Utah CC --- that won't get ya a handgun in EyedeeHo. I'm dying to shoot this bad boy!

I'm envious of that Wilson Combat! Never shot one, but have always wanted to see if they live up to the hype. Hope you'll share a review once you get a chance to put a few rounds through it.

Congrats

[camcojb]

I'm envious of that Wilson Combat! Never shot one, but have always wanted to see if they live up to the hype. Hope you'll share a review once you get a chance to put a few rounds through it.

Congrats
Some day I will have a Wilson Combat myself. Have a Les Baer PII and a SA Trophy Match, both nice 1911's that make me look good at the range. Personal protection is a Glock 19 and a Mossberg 12 gauge.

[Stuart Adams]

Geez, I better watch what I say...

[Flash68]

Personal protection is a Glock 19 and a Mossberg 12 gauge.

Ditto on both.. you're a big dude so I am kinda surprised the G19 fits your hand unless you have a mag extender?

Hopefully you have an "assault" rifle too as backup. :lol:

[camcojb]

Ditto on both.. you're a big dude so I am kinda surprised the G19 fits your hand unless you have a mag extender?

Hopefully you have an "assault" rifle too as backup. :lol:
Yes, I have an "evil black rifle"............ :lol: I did add a different mag baseplate a week ago to get the extra finger support, but it fit me great as-is. Don't have fat fingers.

[tyoneal]

I know this is a little late and probably has been mentioned before, but it is very important that:

The best defense weapon for anyone is the one that has become a natural extention of your mind, arms, and hands.

Be it a 50 BMG, or a baseball bat, just be proficent!

1. Join the NRA- in addition to supporting the 2nd amendment, membership also gives you liability insurence when dealing with specific shooting groups.

2) Join the "USPSA", and learn to shoot correctly.

If you have not been trained the methods and grips etc., I promise, you do not know how to hold and shoot your gun correctly.

Be open to learning what they teach. Girls usually follow instructions bettter than guys, because guys think they already know everything. Be humble and courteous and you will receive a top of the line FREE education.

People are very friendly and want to help other become better shooters. One word of advice, Be aware of where your muzzle is pointed "ALL THE TIME", loaded or unloaded. They do not put up with people who are careless with their firearms.

Basically tell someone that you are new and you need to go to the "Safe Area". This is a place designated at every meeting. Make sure your gun is unloaded,in a bag or a holster, however you MUST have a holster.

Un-load the gun if loaded, Lower the hammer, or in the case of glocks and other similar pistols, pull the trigger with an unloaded gun. This is considered "Hammer Down". At any of these gatherings there is a safe place are designated, that is the ONLY PLACE you can handle and take your fire arm out of it's holster without being directed by a range officer.

This is also the practice with the IDPA that is a somewhat similar organization listed below.

The finest shooters in the world are found in the USPSA. It can be intimidating to shoot with them at time because you suck so bad. Don't worry, you will suck less with time and practice. :relax:

http://www.uspsa.org

3. Join the IDPA: These are a group of very proficient shooters that are focused strickly on self defense in real life senarios. It is totally different than the USPSA, in this respect.

It would be my recomendation for everyone who hasn't been taught the right way to shoot. (I really mean this!)

http://www.idpa.com

All of you who have guns, please join the NRA and at least your local IDPA, or USPSA group, and shoot all the time.

I am totally serious, you will be amazed at how bad you are without their traing methods, and practice.

They might be intimidating, but hang in their and you will have a great time. In the off chance you meet a jerk, *They exist in all clubs) please meet a lot of people so you can find who you feel the most comfortable with.

Anyone else who has shot with any of these groups, give me your validation.

Join the NRA regardless. Use the two organizations above to get involved with shooting.

Take care,

Ty O'Neal
1964 Corvette
1965 Riviera
1969 Camaro

Everything has a Pro touring attitude. :D

[Sieg]

The best defense weapon for anyone is the one that has become a natural extention of your mind, arms, and hands

Well said Ty!

My muscle memory is geared to the geometry of the 1911. I can shoot another handguns accurately (self-defense accuracy) as long as the barrel-grip angle is close to the 1911.

Sight pictures aren't an option in most self-defense situations and those angles related to muscle memory when point shooting are critical IMO.

If I point shoot for center mass X on a silhouette with a Glock at 7 yds my typical double tap group is high in the neck area.

Those who carry - Commit yourself to practice that creates muscle memory with what ever weapon you choose. It doesn't have to be live fire drills. Laser attachments make it easy to practice draw and point.

Remember the draw from concealment may well determine if you win or lose the race. The draw should be practiced equally if not more!

[Zspoiler]

No matter what type of fire arms you use you need to need to training to use it properly. And to become proficient with it. He who has had military and police training already know this. Because if you try to use a fire arm an you freeze up and or panic . You could possibly lose you life or somebody other than the bad guy.

[214Chevy]

No matter what type of fire arms you use you need to need to training to use it properly. And to become proficient with it. He who has had military and police training already know this. Because if you try to use a fire arm an you freeze up and or panic . You could possibly lose you life or somebody other than the bad guy.

Even police who train panic. Unless you a trained killer and/or have been in war many, many times. You will still panic. But, I do agree. One does need to know how to properly use a firearm. No doubt there.

[GregWeld]

Which is exactly why guys like me go to schools like Front Sight....




It's. No different than if you want to be a "racer". You start out with and periodically go take training.

[garickman]

Sight pictures aren't an option in most self-defense situations and those angles related to muscle memory when point shooting are critical IMO.

100% true statement. Training and muscle memory are critical to your survival in a deadly force confrontation. The only thing more critical than that is your mindset. You need to know how you will react to certain certain situations.

[GregWeld]

Remember the draw from concealment may well determine if you win or lose the race. The draw should be practiced equally if not more!



The Front Sight course I'm taking for four days following SEMA --- is about being able to draw from a concealed carry and put two "sighted shots" in the torso -- within 1.5 seconds...


There's no Mozambique shot to the head either by the way.... LOL



The drills will include clearing rooms -- or entering rooms -- where the same targets you've been shooting at as bad guys -- are in the room only this time they may only have knitting needles or some other object and should (obviously) NOT be a target.... That ought to get tricky!

I'll, no doubt, flunk the course.

[camcojb]

The Front Sight course I'm taking for four days following SEMA --- is about being able to draw from a concealed carry and put two "sighted shots" in the torso -- within 1.5 seconds...


There's no Mozambique shot to the head either by the way.... LOL



The drills will include clearing rooms -- or entering rooms -- where the same targets you've been shooting at as bad guys -- are in the room only this time they may only have knitting needles or some other object and should (obviously) NOT be a target.... That ought to get tricky!

I'll, no doubt, flunk the course.That place and course get great reviews on the Calguns site.

[Spiffav8]

The Front Sight course I'm taking for four days following SEMA --- is about being able to draw from a concealed carry and put two "sighted shots" in the torso -- within 1.5 seconds...


There's no Mozambique shot to the head either by the way.... LOL



The drills will include clearing rooms -- or entering rooms -- where the same targets you've been shooting at as bad guys -- are in the room only this time they may only have knitting needles or some other object and should (obviously) NOT be a target.... That ought to get tricky!

I'll, no doubt, flunk the course.

I friend of mine spent a week with them and greatly improved his shooting skills. He learned a ton when it came to defensive shooting. It should be a good course for you.

[Sieg]

I'll, no doubt, flunk the course.
Hey! You may set a new course record............for friendly fire kills. :guns:

[tyoneal]

Which is exactly why guys like me go to schools like Front Sight....




It's. No different than if you want to be a "racer". You start out with and periodically go take training.

=======================
It's funny you should mention that. It is also a good school from what I have heard, and yes with their training your grip is probably correct as well.

"Front Sight" is also the name of the magazine for the USPSA.

[Fitter48044]

I carry a .45 Kimber for a carry weapon. For home security I have a home defense 12 ga. Loaded with high brass buck shot and alternating slugs. Point and shoot, it will knock the perpetrator down.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

=======================
It's funny you should mention that. It is also a good school from what I have heard, and yes with their training your grip is probably correct as well.

"Front Sight" is also the name of the magazine for the USPSA.

Magpul puts on a great weekend class too... tacticool M1A FTW
xcT1mw0i4fE

great day with the buds

[fishface]

Although I have a handgun, in my opinion the best GUN for.home defense is a pump shotgun. The sound of a shell being jacked into the chamber makes a strong possibility that you won't have to pull the trigger. It is a terrifying sound to all but the most determined assailants.

[Sieg]

It is a terrifying sound to all but the most determined assailants.
First hand experience? http://www.desmonorthwest.com/forums/images/smilies/cool2.gif



:D

[hud697]

I'd agree with a pump shotgun, but if you must have a handgun go with a Taurus Judge loaded with .410 home defense loads

[tyoneal]

I use a 12 GA Pump. I keep one in the chamber with the safety on.
I don't want a perpetrator to know where I am unless he is able to here the safety comes off. I know the places around the house that I know what would make a good defendable position and a place where the perpetrator would have to come through a narrow passage.

With my wife behind me, I feel I heve a good preset plan to make a strong defensive location.

My wife has a 10 shot .22 Pistol that she can shoot very accurately and very naturally. If she ever had to use it, 10 .22's in the chest would be very uncomfortable to say the least.

Ty

[hud697]

I use a 12 GA Pump. I keep one in the chamber with the safety on.
I don't want a perpetrator to know where I am unless he is able to here the safety comes off. I know the places around the house that I know what would make a good defendable position and a place where the perpetrator would have to come through a narrow passage.

With my wife behind me, I feel I heve a good preset plan to make a strong defensive location.

My wife has a 10 shot .22 Pistol that she can shoot very accurately and very naturally. If she ever had to use it, 10 .22's in the chest would be very uncomfortable to say the least.

Ty

I have found that women are naturally good shots (the ones that are no scared to shoot).

[Jr]

Personal protection is a Glock 19 and a Mossberg 12 gauge.

Jody,
Did you get the pistol grip with your mossberg? Also, gen 3 or 4 on the Glock?

David

[GregWeld]

Interesting "CQB" video…



ruxrpZp0U44&desktop

[Spiffav8]

Interesting "CQB" video…

Never would have thought of that one. I was taught to shoot holding my firearm in close to my body in that type of situation. This really makes you start thinking what if scenarios in your head. I like it.

Greg did Front Sight teach any defensive tactics like this during your course?

[GregWeld]

Never would have thought of that one. I was taught to shoot holding my firearm in close to my body in that type of situation. This really makes you start thinking what if scenarios in your head. I like it.

Greg did Front Sight teach any defensive tactics like this during your course?




No -- the course I took -- "4 day defensive hand gun", was about drawing from a concealed carry -- and putting two to the torso -- within 1.5 seconds… and clearing type 1.2.3 malfunctions in various times -- like a type 3 within 6.5 seconds… while moving… such as:


dead trigger. step. look. check for fresh mag. strip mag. rack rack rack. insert fresh mag. rack.

No fumbles. no flubs. Your life may depend on this sequence!

They have all kinds of classes depending on what you want to learn of course.

[Spiffav8]

No -- the course I took -- "4 day defensive hand gun", was about drawing from a concealed carry -- and putting two to the torso -- within 1.5 seconds… and clearing type 1.2.3 malfunctions in various times -- like a type 3 within 6.5 seconds… while moving… such as:


dead trigger. step. look. check for fresh mag. strip mag. rack rack rack. insert fresh mag. rack.

No fumbles. no flubs. Your life may depend on this sequence!

They have all kinds of classes depending on what you want to learn of course.


Awesome. Laurie and I have memberships, but have never used them. I am way over due for a refresher and Laurie really could use that exact type of training.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

That's all fine and dandy but if im a bad guy you would already be dead by my secondary weapon which I had in my right hand before I attacked you in the first place. The attacker will always have the upper hand because only they will know how and when the attack is coming. No matter how much you train its almost impossible to over come this advantage. Smart technique other wise.

Never enter an unknown area with your weapon extended and always go wide when slicing "the pie". This advise will not only help you in a combat situation but at the Thanksgiving table next week.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Another note, it's nice to see the Gracie's involved with Police training. It's a great base system to work from.

I know this is about home protection. Know your home layout and protect your entry ways so you can limit the sections a theif or burglar can enter. Now days most dangers come from home invasions. Don't open your door and be smart when coming home since its getting dark earlier.


by the way i am not anti gun, anti concealed carry or anti castle doctrine. I am anti- stupid people doing stupid things that create stupid legislation to further restrict smart, legal gun owners like my self just minding my own business.

[GregWeld]

Curtis -- the training is VERY intensive… long grinding days… and I was exhausted by the end of each day. Well worth ANYONE'S time to take this type of training!

We did do room clearing - and as Vince referred to it - "slicing the pie" - and the kill tunnels such as doorways to other rooms etc. How to enter - how to search - how to think - how to defend…


None of it makes you an expert - what it does do is shows you how little you know - but is a great base to build on if you're in to this sort of knowledge and skill.

Lunches and after class time (after 5pm) there were excellent discussions on morals - ethics - legal - planning - etc which are all great topics you need to think about BEFORE ever having to use such lethal force.

VINCE ---

What you say is very true - you can not always defend from a surprise attack. That really wasn't what the discussion was about. Nobody is 100% safe. Nobody should walk around paranoid either. That would depend on where you live - where you are - time of day - and on and on…. They worked on us with this thinking (zones actually) about being in what zone depending on what/time/surroundings etc. About not going to the "white zone" (being totally unaware of what's going on around you)… but that is also totally unrealistic for most people that are happy just living their lives. I, for one, am not walking around in yellow zone all day every day.



This stuff is like track days -- the average guy is not driving a car on track very often… it can be MONTHS between events for the average guy. Taking classes and learning - doesn't make a guy A J Foyt…. The average guy is not being trained or dry firing - or practicing malfunction drills… or room clearing. If you (not you - but any YOU) are - and you're not a cop or in the defense business - I'd say you're a bit whacked… and my guess is that the average guy will forget everything he's taught if presented with an actual situation. I still believe it's my DUTY of ownership - to get some basic training and do some basic practice and skill building and try to keep relatively proficient.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Great point Greg.

Its like what I tell my friends and familly that carry, either open unloaded or concealed. You never know whats going to happen but don't let fear make you change your life. Once you do that I feel the bad guys have won without even being there.

But this doesn't mean you can live in denile thinking it can never happen to you. Just be smart and don't dismiss things going on around in your area.

Getting to know you neighbors and what is going on in your area can be helpfull to deter crime and help law enforcement. My neighbors let me know when they are going out of town or noticed odd things going on.
We had a rash of car break in's last year and with the help of a neighbor a block away we actually helped catch 2 teens in the act. Cops rolled up right when they had their heads in the glove box and trunk. They had coins, house keys, (never leave a copy of your house keys in your car along with your registration) credit cards and one guy had a large hunting knife which was concealed.

Just the little things you may not think about can make your life and home a little safer.

Instead of thinking defence, put the same amount of effort into deterrence.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

The average guy is not being trained or dry firing - or practicing malfunction drills… or room clearing. If you (not you - but any YOU) are - and you're not a cop or in the defense business - I'd say you're a bit whacked…

haa haa oh yeah. I have a few Tackleberries in my life. Its quite entertaining at times.

[GregWeld]

My cop buddy (Merle Carner - retired - now head of CrimeStoppers here locally) always tells me --- "I love the people with a gun in the nightstand but the bullets are safely in the basement!"


I fall into that category… all my stuff - ammo and all -- is safely locked away in a burglar and fireproof safe in the shop…

I know I'm lame -- but I'm more afraid of someone stealing it… than I am of being a victim.

On the other hand, when I'm on the road in the rig --- you wouldn't want to try to come in unannounced or uninvited.

[hud697]

Under extreme stress, especially when there is an element of surprise, it's usually about luck more than anything else.

I was referring to target shooting

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Makes sense.

Females do have a faster reaction time than males.

[GregWeld]

Females do have a faster reaction time than males.

Not sure that's really ever been established -- or that it's just a "wives tale".



Reaction time and reflexes are largely dependent on the male or female in question. Tests done to gauge this have turned up mixed results due to the difficulty of establishing consistent testing methods. Age, training, and natural aptitude all play a part in this and makes it very hard to say for sure. However, the tests that have been performed state that men are a bit quicker to react than women.

[Sieg]

Females do have a faster reaction time than males.
Are you talking about jumping to conclusions or shooting? :sieg:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

took someone long enough to get it. LOL

im terrible at telling jokes. I always forget to leave the punch line.


the guys at mythbusters did a test and Kari had shorter reaction but longer action times. Episode 189 – Hollywood Gunslingers

[GregWeld]

I took the 4 day Defensive handgun class at Front Sight the week after SEMA… I have to tell you that 4 days of that is INTENSE… but worth the effort. They not only have you shooting far better and far faster than you ever did -- they discuss important topics such as Morals - Ethics - Legal liability, etc.

You start really early the first day since everyone has to have a thorough gun and ammo check… and that first day is L O N G… and they start promptly at 8AM on the range.

Couple of things --- This place is not only out in Pahrump -- it's also out in the pucker weeds about 13 miles from Pahrump. AND there's a lot of people taking their various courses. I was shocked at how many people were there! But they have shotgun courses - rifle - sniper - tactical courses - defensive courses… so when you add it all up = there's a lot of folks out there every day.

My course was training for you to be able to draw from a concealed holster - meaning your jacket etc is completely covering your weapon - and zipped up etc - and you have to draw and put two in the torso area in a hand sized pattern in LESS than 1.5 seconds. If you think you can do this - go ahead and try. Just make sure you don't put a racing stripe down your leg.

SAFETY was really strict… and I liked that! You're in an open range with about 20 other people you don't know - and you don't know their skill level. They had this down to a science.

We went thru about 600 rounds… (you bring your own ammo)… which doesn't seem like much - but you have to be ACCURATE with that ammo… and you're drawing and firing from various distances. So it's PLENTY of shooting as far as I'm concerned. This isn't target practice -- this is drawing - moving - scanning for "other targets" (perps)… there's a whole bunch going on.

Anyway -- I'd highly recommend this school for those so inclined. It's very professional - well run - great instruction… lots of DUST and SUN… and lots of on your feet for long hours… but the net result was extremely useful.

[HellPhish89]

personally, i prefer a carbine for home D and the pistol for out and about (when in VA and other places that allow it). my FNP40 goes bang every time and fits my hands well but it is meant for the type of CQB that would be encountered in a home, just need a suppressor now..its a lil loud shooting inside...

comes down to.. just use what is most comfortable to you and practice, practice, practice, practice. run different routes through your home until you can do it blindfolded and in the dark. dry fire, a lot. hell, use airsoft as a training aid. train as you fight, fight as you train. your life may depend on it.

[chetly]

I vote for 45acp and not that plastic gun crap...

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Hn8sN97/0/XL/i-Hn8sN97-XL.jpg

[OLDFLM]

I had a Gen 3 Glock 22 with night sights and a 3.5lb trigger etc. that I had for most of the time I was on active duty... got scared when my two little boys (now 6 & 10) started playing Air Soft "Call of Duty" with the neighbor kids.

Those things look a LOT like my G22 with the exception of the red/orange tip. Long story short, I got rid of it for the same reasons GW discussed earlier... I had the weapon in one spot with a trigger lock, the clips in another and the ammo locked up in a safe elsewhere... "hold on Mr. Intruder, I know you just kicked in my front door but I need a few minutes!" LOL

Didn't make a lot of sense, so I got a Mossberg 500 18" Tactical for my wife (aka Black Betty) and a 590 20" for me... but regretted selling the .40 ever since.

So for Christmas this year, my wife surprised me with a new Gen4 G22! Glock has "blue label" pricing for retired military and police than can't be beat! And Glock got it right with the new Gen4 as it comes with most of the mods everyone was doing to old Gen3s... beavertail backstrap, dual springs for less recoil, etc. I'll just add the Trigicon night sights and the 3.5# or "dot" connector again.

Now our HD is set imo with the G22 in a nightstand drawer safe, loaded up with 3 clips of Critical Defense hollow points and two Mossberg's with Critical Defense 00 @ 1600fps. When my wife hears a noise in the middle of the night, I grab the Glock and she grabs "Black Betty"!

My FIL is a custom home builder btw... in case dry wall repairs are needed after we call 911.

[chetly]

What's the fascination with Glocks except that they are cheap? I bought one once, put 500 rounds through it and was all over the place. My current Springfield pictured about the first 5 shots at 7 yards could have been covered by a quarter...

[Sieg]

What's the fascination with Glocks except that they are cheap? I bought one once, put 500 rounds through it and was all over the place. My current Springfield pictured about the first 5 shots at 7 yards could have been covered by a quarter...
Glocks work fine. Different strokes for different folks. Glocks are here to stay like it or not and they somewhat started the polymer revolution which we've all benefited from. Many defenders bet their life on them and have proved they are an effective combat weapon......no need to trash them.

Zero shoots a Glock and I wouldn't want to go up against him with a shotgun in CQC........even at distance.

gMYD73YvqH4

[camcojb]

What's the fascination with Glocks except that they are cheap? I bought one once, put 500 rounds through it and was all over the place. My current Springfield pictured about the first 5 shots at 7 yards could have been covered by a quarter...

Glocks work fine. Different strokes for different folks. Glocks are here to stay like it or not and they somewhat started the polymer revolution which we've all benefited from. Many defenders bet their life on them and have proved they are an effective combat weapon......no need to trash them.

Zero shoots a Glock and I wouldn't want to go up against him with a shotgun in CQC........even at distance.

There's nothing wrong with them, I've seen guys who are incredibly accurate with them. Mine always go bang, and is more than accurate enough for me.

[Shmoov69]

Glocks work fine. Different strokes for different folks. Glocks are here to stay like it or not and they somewhat started the polymer revolution which we've all benefited from. Many defenders bet their life on them and have proved they are an effective combat weapon......no need to trash them.

Zero shoots a Glock and I wouldn't want to go up against him with a shotgun in CQC........even at distance.

gMYD73YvqH4

Wow, impressive!! A couple months ago I couldn't hit a skunk from about 15 yards with my 19!!! LoL! :bang:

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Glocks are the VW bugs of guns. Run great when they are good but leave you with a pain when they don't.

_q9O-wVfQ-s


I witnessed a few failures, most where with reloads.

I love my XD and loved my 1911.

[Sieg]

......most were with reloads.

Key words right there. Improper case prep, inaccurate powder measures, poor die setup and press maintenance, and infrequent quality control checks on rounds equal KaBoom. I was very careful loading my 22-250 considering the pressures they can develope.

3 years ago a 20+ year varmint hunting buddy and serious firearms collector had a squib round in his Ruger 77/17......he was distracted by a cell phone call and had another person next to him shooting a centerfire when the squib happened and ended up chambering another round......it blew the side off the stock and disintegrated the Ruger rotary mag........a tiny little .17 HMR. Certain rounds develop serious pressure. My even smaller .17 Mach 2 has higher pressures than the .17 HMR. This round was due to a bad batch of Hornady ammo. It was reported to Hornady with the batch number off the box and case and Hornady actually sent him a new rifle.

Sometimes safety is beyond your control but it's a very small percentage.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Key words right there. Improper case prep, inaccurate powder measures, poor die setup and press maintenance, and infrequent quality control checks on rounds equal KaBoom. I was very careful loading my 22-250 considering the pressures they can develope.

3 years ago a 20+ year varmint hunting buddy and serious firearms collector had a squib round in his Ruger 77/17......he was distracted by a cell phone call and had another person next to him shooting a centerfire when the squib happened and ended up chambering another round......it blew the side off the stock and disintegrated the Ruger rotary mag........a tiny little .17 HMR. Certain rounds develop serious pressure. My even smaller .17 Mach 2 has higher pressures than the .17 HMR. This round was due to a bad batch of Hornady ammo. It was reported to Hornady with the batch number off the box and case and Hornady actually sent him a new rifle.

Sometimes safety is beyond your control but it's a very small percentage.

but some were not.....I have 1700 rounds through my XD with reloads, cheap and what ever was laying around with zero issues.

Im not a glock hater just buyer be informed. Quality should top all reasons for purchase.

[Sieg]

but some were not.....I have 1700 rounds through my XD with reloads, cheap and what ever was laying around with zero issues.

I'm not a glock hater just buyer be informed. Quality should top all reasons for purchase.
Over 12K of my handloads through my 1911......no surprises in three years of shooting league. Never had a Glock, shot a few and the grip angle doesn't work for me. 1911's, Sig's, and a Kahr are my go to's.

Fact is any gun can blow up due to a bad round.....or two.

[Revved]

I've had my HK USP 40 for close to 20 years and thousands of rounds and it still runs like a machine.

7-8 years ago I picked up a Glock 27 compact in .40 as a carry piece and at first grumbled about how sloppy it felt next to my HK but as I have now run thousands of rounds through it as well it has never failed. Maybe 1 jam in all that time running PMC rounds when ammo was ridiculously expensive. I try to stick with better quality ammo.

I bought my wife a Kahr PM-9 a few years back...their single stack "hand fitted sub compact 9mm with match grade barrel" and it would barely shoot without jamming. Sent it back to the factory twice for them to just "polish the feed ramp." It would fail to feed and fail to eject on about every 2-3 magazines you would run through it. They give you the whole... "You need to run 250 rounds before it is broken in" but I ran 500 rounds of 3 different types of ammo and still had issues. The internal machine work was sloppy and there was something visually goofy about the alignment between the magazine and the feed ramp... the first guy I spoke to at the factory admitted they had some feed issues but nobody after that seemed to know anything about it. Recoil spring was so stiff my wife could barely cycle the slide. When it shot the groupings were nice and recoil was low. Ended up selling that one at a loss 6 months in.

We replaced the Kahr with a Springfield XDS9 single stack 9mm for her and it has been great. Quality wise it feels better than my Glock but not quite like the HK. It shoots great, easy for her to operate and puts down great groupings. It is definitely for small hands though.. where she can barely hold my Glock and HK because they are too big... I can barely hold the XDS9 because it is so small.



Anyway you guys do realize that this conversation will answer the mystery of the universe as just as much as asking.... "What is the best brand of car to buy?" or "What is Pro-Touring?" Or "What was that stuff growing on the cheesecake in my refrigerator and why did I eat it anyway?"

[rickpaw]

To the original question-the best handgun for home protection is the one you can get your hand on when needed.

Nothing wrong with Glock, I have a G26 Gen4. Have not had any issues with it, other than the occasional brass to the face. I have S&W M&P's, and an HK VP9, so far the HK is the best.

[GregWeld]

Anyway you guys do realize that this conversation will answer the mystery of the universe as just as much as asking.... "What is the best brand of car to buy?" or "What is Pro-Touring?" Or "What was that stuff growing on the cheesecake in my refrigerator and why did I eat it anyway?"



It's like asking "what's the best camera". Steve Rupp will tell you it's "The one you have with you!".

So true, and so simple. The best HD weapon is the one you have that you can use.


I have more weapons and ammo than I care to admit. They're all locked up 11 miles away. I choose to live where I don't lock my doors nor remove the keys from our unlocked vehicles.

I think maybe the best defense is a good dog. Our Lab barks at anything and anyone that comes within 20 feet of the house.

[nicks67ca]

I think maybe the best defense is a good dog. Our Lab barks at anything and anyone that comes within 20 feet of the house.

I like the our dogs although they aren't big (french bulldog and boston terrier) they could give an additional couple seconds to ready yourself and family. That extra time could save your life.

EDIT- For the record I have my Para 1911 as my go to.

[Sieg]

Anyway you guys do realize that this conversation will answer the mystery of the universe as just as much as asking.... "What is the best brand of car to buy?" or "What is Pro-Touring?" Or "What was that stuff growing on the cheesecake in my refrigerator and why did I eat it anyway?"

To the original question-the best handgun for home protection is the one you can get your hand on when needed.

It's like asking "what's the best camera". Steve Rupp will tell you it's "The one you have with you!".

So true, and so simple. The best HD weapon is the one you have that you can use.

I think maybe the best defense is a good dog. Our Lab barks at anything and anyone that comes within 20 feet of the house.

Like oil the brand/quality is worthless if not where it's needed.

Interesting on the Kahr Revved, I've had two PM40's and both fed well, only way it would hiccup was due to limp wristing.

Greg you have multiple guns........you need another dog. ;)

[Revved]

To the original question-the best handgun for home protection is the one you can get your hand on when needed and know how to properly use.


Fixed that for ya!


Any gun is a liability in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to, or is afraid to use it. Training with any type of weapon is just as important as the selection of the weapon. Just like owning a 1000hp car is a liability in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to properly drive it.

[Revved]

Interesting on the Kahr Revved, I've had two PM40's and both fed well, only way it would hiccup was due to limp wristing.


If it were just happening to my wife I might agree... I actually had a "gun guy" argue with me that was the cause and we just "weren't shooting it right"... until it did it to him when he shot it. Then it "must be your ammo..." Nope... changed that as well... still jams.

I've been shooting handguns for 20+ years and never had an issue like this gun. I had 4 different people shoot it with the same results. Just got a bad one I guess. We bought it because we know people that have Kahrs and love them.... all guys though- two in 40 and one in 9mm. Honestly that PM9 was so user-unfriendly for a woman that I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. There is no reason why a small handgun should be that difficult to operate. She could not physically break down the gun because the slide pressure is so stiff, IMO to overcome their slide design issue. The Springfield XDS9 we replaced it with is excellent and she can work it without issue.

[TXsilverado]

Didnt read the entire thread, but for an exclusive home protection gun, a 12 gauge shotgun is hard to beat. It wasnt an option. In the heat of the moment, youre much more likely to be successful with a shot gun. And the sound of a shell getting racked will make any intruder **** their pants. Best case scenario is you run them off without a shot fired.

[sd67]

I haven't read the entire thread either but I would have to agree. The best gun is the one you never have to use but someone knows you have and racking one in my 12 gauge as I am walled up in my bedroom is a good deterent. Off target shots are also less likely to leave the house too which is a bonus.