Vette suspension in nova

[Sartren]

Hi. I'm a new dude here and was wondering if anyone has done or seen a c4 vette IRS installed in a 68-72 Nova. I've seen it done on a number of Camaros and thought it might be something different for my nova.

[deuce_454]

ironworks has done 5 novas with c5/6 suspension as far as i know

http://www.ironworksspeedandkustom.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=10

he is a member and there are build threads on a few of them (use the search function)

on stevesnovasite a member "hurley2524" has doen some c4 suspension
work...
http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114044

the fastest way is propably just to order a morrison chassis with c5 front suspension and 3 link rear...

the cheaper route is to get a speedtech front suspension with ats spindles and a concours west bolt in IRS....

[ProdigyCustoms]

Hi. I'm a new dude here and was wondering if anyone has done or seen a c4 vette IRS installed in a 68-72 Nova. I've seen it done on a number of Camaros and thought it might be something different for my nova.

We have been through the entire C4 Vette stuff under various cars. It is a true welcome to the year 2004 modification. There is so much better stuff available now, there are a number of systems that will out perform the C4 stuff. We have 5 systems that are better. And this is coming from someone that owns a C4 suspended car. it rides great, it handles good, but we could do better all out performance with off the shelf components.

Forget it,

[Sartren]

Yeah I guess there's tons of companys making quality parts for these cars, that would perform much better.

[Garage Dog 65]

First one I saw was Lil' John's nova back in early 80's. Build was covered in Hot Rod and project was called Novette I beleive.

Jim

here's story link.

http://www.auto-nomics.com/documents/HR_0685.pdf

[deuce_454]

We have been through the entire C4 Vette stuff under various cars. It is a true welcome to the year 2004 modification. There is so much better stuff available now, there are a number of systems that will out perform the C4 stuff. We have 5 systems that are better. And this is coming from someone that owns a C4 suspended car. it rides great, it handles good, but we could do better all out performance with off the shelf components.

Forget it,

im with you on that one frank.. but he asked specifically for c4 suspension...

[Cris@JCG]

Here is a link to a company that is doing suspension with C4.. More into the Street Rod scene but might work on you stock frame rails.

http://www.flatout-engineering.com/products.html

[tgvettes]

I talked to Art Morrison about this and the problem is the track width with C5 C6 suspension. I wanted to get their Max G Frame for my Nova Convertible with the C5/C6 Front suspension, and they say they can build it but you would have to use wheels that is all offset to the inside so not recommended.

The Rearend is really to wide even from a c4 to put on a Nova
and shorten the Corvette rears are not good from an handling stand point I have been told.

This said I think you can use a C4 front suspension on a Nova and make it work. If you are looking for the best possible handling car you probably need to look at completely custom build suspension.

My Nova is most likely getting a C4 front suspension and a 4 link rear suspension.

Tonny

[mfain]

A couple of random thoughts on C4 IRS for your project. The C4 IRS "batwing" is easy to install in most chassis, but even the Dana 44 is fairly weak if you are going to abuse it (especially drag racing with big tires). Also, Chevrolet designed the suspension to impart a little "roll steer" into the geometry to "tighten" the car in hard turns to keep the back end from coming around -- a safety thing. That is partially why the links are so short (space in the C4 Corvette is the other). Also, you have a "loaded" half shaft that serves as a suspension link which is not especially desirable. That being said, a couple of advantages to the C4 set-up are that you can easily adjust the rear moment center and the camber gain for cornering and, if you make the four link front pick-up points adjustable, you can change the "hit" on the rear tire for drag racing and the squat/dive characteristics for road racing. You can't do either of these with a C5/C6 set-up without moving the rear control arm pick-up points. I solved the "weak differential" problem by going to a Tom's Differential C3 Corvette center section (12 bolt ring gear, 31-spine hardened stub axles, big spiders and side gears) on a custom built rear crossmember. There are also Ford 9 inch IRS center sections available. The Driveshaft Shop (and others) build extremely strong, custom length half shafts with 1350 u-joints. Tom's Differential sells cryo-hardened outer axles. I use 20-inch long forward links with heims and adjustable forward mounts that eliminate the roll steer. It takes a lot of work to make the C4 IRS live and perform well behind a big motor, but it is an option. I guess it just depends on how you are going to drive your car. Good luck with your project!

[deuce_454]

A couple of random thoughts on C4 IRS for your project. The C4 IRS "batwing" is easy to install in most chassis, but even the Dana 44 is fairly weak if you are going to abuse it (especially drag racing with big tires). Also, Chevrolet designed the suspension to impart a little "roll steer" into the geometry to "tighten" the car in hard turns to keep the back end from coming around -- a safety thing. That is partially why the links are so short (space in the C4 Corvette is the other). Also, you have a "loaded" half shaft that serves as a suspension link which is not especially desirable. That being said, a couple of advantages to the C4 set-up are that you can easily adjust the rear moment center and the camber gain for cornering and, if you make the four link front pick-up points adjustable, you can change the "hit" on the rear tire for drag racing and the squat/dive characteristics for road racing. You can't do either of these with a C5/C6 set-up without moving the rear control arm pick-up points. I solved the "weak differential" problem by going to a Tom's Differential C3 Corvette center section (12 bolt ring gear, 31-spine hardened stub axles, big spiders and side gears) on a custom built rear crossmember. There are also Ford 9 inch IRS center sections available. The Driveshaft Shop (and others) build extremely strong, custom length half shafts with 1350 u-joints. Tom's Differential sells cryo-hardened outer axles. I use 20-inch long forward links with heims and adjustable forward mounts that eliminate the roll steer. It takes a lot of work to make the C4 IRS live and perform well behind a big motor, but it is an option. I guess it just depends on how you are going to drive your car. Good luck with your project!

Those thoughts dont seem that random at all.. ive been researching IRS options for my 35 ford lately and have come to almost the same comclusions..

one of the very big plusses on the C4 is that since the half shaft serve as the UCA it wont require butchering the rear of the car to get it in there as would a c5/6

i dont agree that moving the trailingarms will affect the hit of the car like moving the arem on a 4 link.. and the reason fro this is that the trailing arms mount to the uprights and they do not absorb any of the forces involved in turning the wheels.. that reaction is handled by the longitudinal arm mounted to the diff case... the trailing arms only handle thrust from the wheels on acceleration and enginebraking, and the rotational forces excerted when applying the brakes..

all that being said, it isnt that bad a setup.. and it will polish nicely too :-)

If you want best handling from your c4, you will need to replace a lot or the rubber bushings with heims (as do gullstrand) to heep the bushing flex from changing the geometry in the turns...

im sure that a well engineered 3 link with a wattslink will be a more favorable setup for a car that sees occational drag racing.. if on the other hand you road race with roling start, you can't beat an irs.. the lower unsprung weight just keeps the tires planted more consistently...

[mfain]

[QUOTE=deuce_454;269182]

i dont agree that moving the trailingarms will affect the hit of the car like moving the arem on a 4 link.. and the reason fro this is that the trailing arms mount to the uprights and they do not absorb any of the forces involved in turning the wheels.. that reaction is handled by the longitudinal arm mounted to the diff case... the trailing arms only handle thrust from the wheels on acceleration and enginebraking, and the rotational forces excerted when applying the brakes..

I do agree that you don't alter the tire loading effects caused by the rotational forces of the rear end by moving the front of the IRS 4-link, but you do change the instant center of the rear suspension. This alters the percentage of loading caused by mass of the vehicle on the rear tires during acceleration. Some circle track cars use this principle (moving the 4-link pick-up) to load the outside rear tire during acceleration. Most use a full floating rear end which, in effect, stops the rotational forces from transfering through the four link, much like an IRS.

Pappy

[deuce_454]

[QUOTE=deuce_454;269182]

i dont agree that moving the trailingarms will affect the hit of the car like moving the arem on a 4 link.. and the reason fro this is that the trailing arms mount to the uprights and they do not absorb any of the forces involved in turning the wheels.. that reaction is handled by the longitudinal arm mounted to the diff case... the trailing arms only handle thrust from the wheels on acceleration and enginebraking, and the rotational forces excerted when applying the brakes..

I do agree that you don't alter the tire loading effects caused by the rotational forces of the rear end by moving the front of the IRS 4-link, but you do change the instant center of the rear suspension. This alters the percentage of loading caused by mass of the vehicle on the rear tires during acceleration. Some circle track cars use this principle (moving the 4-link pick-up) to load the outside rear tire during acceleration. Most use a full floating rear end which, in effect, stops the rotational forces from transfering through the four link, much like an IRS.

Pappy

exactly.. so its only the "lift" caused by "pushing" on a non horizontal pair of links.... so the antisquat effect is caused by the thrust acting over or under the C or G..

[Sartren]

Well I'm only in the thought process of my build right now so I'll proly change my mind several times.

[novanutcase]

Well I'm only in the thought process of my build right now so I'll proly change my mind several times.

If you need a point of reference go here:

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1299964#post1299964

Jasons already grafted a C4 front end onto his '63.....

John

[Garage Dog 65]

Recently used this setup on a 58 vette with C4 rear transplant. Very easy to install. Didn't cost much either. Tray Walden is owner.

http://www.streetshopinc.com/c4str8axl.html

[deuce_454]

Recently used this setup on a 58 vette with C4 rear transplant. Very easy to install. Didn't cost much either. Tray Walden is owner.

http://www.streetshopinc.com/c4str8axl.html

that is not a really well engineered package... its nice, but for a lateral-g car that gets beat on and driven... i wouldnt trust a shop that solidmounted the pinion like that.. and relied on the shockmounts for springs and bumpstop...

the corvette spindle isnt designed to carry the weight on the shockmount... and how on earth can you use a solid mount on the pinion of the diff case, when the rest is rubbermounted ??

the ladder connecting the tranny and rear end on a c4 isnt there to impede the exhaust, but to transfer the torque from the pinion...

a quick calculation... engine tq:500, 1.gear ratio:3.07, rear ratio:3.33 => wheeltourque:5111 ft/lbs... distance from pinion support to axle~1foot.. => load on frint x member in first gear 5111 lbs...
with the corvette ladder arrangement the distance is closer to 5 feet, and the resulting load is ~1000 pounds, wich is fine for a double sheer mount 3/8 inch bolt in a rubber bushing...

if the tube is a 40x3mm steeltube the moment of resistance is 1178, and the press is 5111 lbs = 22.7kN assuming the length of the x member is 1m the moment is 11.3kN/m the stress in the tube at that point is 9650n/mm2 = 1400ksi.. :willy:

this means that the first time you get traction in first .. it will bend as you are far beyond the yield strength of weldable steel

if you were to do the same with a cantilevered spring or airbagged controllarm to cary the load where the spindle/upright is designed to ttansfer load... and some longitudinal controllarm to transfer the torque... youd be fine..

but doing an IRS install requires alittle grey matter activity

(alot of the street rod stuff out there simply isnt safe.. well its fine for a trailerqueen, but much of it is in the words of ralph nader "unsafe at any speed")

[Garage Dog 65]

Great info Deuce - Thx much !

Jim

[GregWeld]

I've got a C4 Dana 44 rolling around the shop - for like 5 years now - after listening to Deuce -- it's no wonder I've never stuck it under anything!! :rofl: :rofl:

[deuce_454]

I've got a C4 Dana 44 rolling around the shop - for like 5 years now - after listening to Deuce -- it's no wonder I've never stuck it under anything!! :rofl: :rofl:

after doing the math.. im all fired up about installing one.. care to sell me yours ? :D

[GregWeld]

I'll start crating her up! It even has the 3:42 gears...

I'm serious - I've been pushing it around here for 4 or more years now and I'm not going to use it. My new chassis for the 37 has a Ford 9".. and leaf springs... Low tech at it's finest. :rofl:

[deuce_454]

I'll start crating her up! It even has the 3:42 gears...

I'm serious - I've been pushing it around here for 4 or more years now and I'm not going to use it. My new chassis for the 37 has a Ford 9".. and leaf springs... Low tech at it's finest. :rofl:

sold! ill take it

[GregWeld]

PM me.... I'd be happy to get rid of it!

[Romulus]

Another love connection.

Wish I would have known you couple years ago when I bought my 44.

[mfain]

Deuce,

To address your concerns about picking up the spring load at the shock mount, there are and have been quite a few roadrace C-4 Corvettes running coilovers mounted that way for quite a while. With that said, I had the same concern about wide tires (lots of traction) and big springs, so I fabricated a backing support that picked up part of the strain, and in addition, it put the rear heims on the forward four-link in a double shear situation, vice the single shear configuration that Chevy used. I saw a similar solution recently in a thread on this site. I have included a couple of pictures.

Pappy

[deuce_454]

Deuce,

To address your concerns about picking up the spring load at the shock mount, there are and have been quite a few roadrace C-4 Corvettes running coilovers mounted that way for quite a while. With that said, I had the same concern about wide tires (lots of traction) and big springs, so I fabricated a backing support that picked up part of the strain, and in addition, it put the rear heims on the forward four-link in a double shear situation, vice the single shear configuration that Chevy used. I saw a similar solution recently in a thread on this site. I have included a couple of pictures.

Pappy

Thats a nice solution! my concern was like you said the single sheer, and the fact thats in aluminum.. Aluminum has a finite fatugue life, meaning that it will break from metalfatigue eventually. when is only a function of load and number of cyles... (so while it might last long enough for 100 races.. it might not do 100.000 highway miles..) its also the reason that the spindles have a service life specified by GM, and why aluminum connection rods arent used in street engines..

The pic you enclosed shows nicely how the bending stress in the aluminum is eliminated by that bracket, AND that the load is distributed to 3 bolts instead of that one shock stuc

being a soon to be owner of a c4 rear end :unibrow: id love to hear where you got that bracket?

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/attachment.php4?attachmentid=23182&d=1266963504

[GregWeld]

Deuce --

Here's the pics of the C4 Dana 44 with 3:45's ..... It's been outside the shed on a dolly -- so it's not "pretty" -- but it's all there.


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/C4%20Dana%2044/DSC_7739.jpg


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/C4%20Dana%2044/DSC_7736.jpg


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/C4%20Dana%2044/DSC_7724_2.jpg


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/C4%20Dana%2044/DSC_7735.jpg

[deuce_454]

Deuce --

Here's the pics of the C4 Dana 44 with 3:45's ..... It's been outside the shed on a dolly -- so it's not "pretty" -- but it's all there.


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/C4%20Dana%2044/DSC_7739.jpg


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/C4%20Dana%2044/DSC_7736.jpg


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/C4%20Dana%2044/DSC_7724_2.jpg


http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/C4%20Dana%2044/DSC_7735.jpg

sweet.. ill take it..

the best thing is that now ill haev an excuse to buy that AC/DC TIG ive been looking for an excuse to buy

[GregWeld]

Deuce --

Just Email me... give me shipping etc.