Hydraulic TO Bearing and clutch pedal travel Help...

[Tom.A]

Looking for some feedback from those whom shimmed a hydraulic TO bearing.

I had to get a tow home yesterday after I lost my hydraulic clutch. I had hope that the fluid leaking under the car was because bleeder had vibrated loose but it was not. It is coming from the lower housing. I plan to try and yank the trans tomorrow and inspect. I have listed a little details of the application:
LS3 with a TKO 600, Using the Hurst Drivline supplied kit which inlude a tilton master with a aluminum bracket. Throw out bearing is a Ram with a max travel 0f .700". I am also using a LSX Hurst bell housing which is a new casting (LSX style) of the old 621 style bell. Here are my measurements when I installed prior. Bell depth was 3.08" to the bell housing face from the pressure plate fingers, for the gear box it was 2.47" from trans face to the face of the TO bearing (compressed/relaxed) so that left me with a delta of .61". As per the instructions each conical shim is .100". Looking at my notes I used 4 shims which brought it to 2.87". The bearing to pressure plate gap needs to be a min. .125" to a maximum of .225", so 3.08" minus 2.87" = .210" . Fast forward about ~ 600 miles and I got a leaker. Sorry for the details but I just want to be sure I am not missing something simple.
Now with the above shimming in mind here is my next question: My clucth pedal would have to be all the way to the floor and the littlest (release)travel it would move the car. I always thought it should have more travel before it disengaged. Would this be an indication of more or less shims needed?
I am considering trying an external slave cylinder but it I may just give another try with a RAM bearing. Thanks in advance for i=any feedback.

[67ragtp]

Tom,

Had the same situation on my ls7/tko 600 with regards to the release point. Just barely disengaging when depressed to the floor and releasing immediatly off the floor. My numbers came up with a difference of .210 to .215 this puts you on the high side leaving to much gap between the bearing and fingers of the clutch. Another words your not depressing the pressure plate deep enough. You need to close up the gap, problem is another .100 conical shim wil close it off to much. What I did, to put me in the center of the range was machine off .050 from one of the shims and tig tack(around the perimeter) the shim on to one of the .1 shims to give me a shim that yielded
.150". This moved my difference number to .160 and now it grabs in the center of the clutch pedal travel.

I dont think that your adjusment parameters are what caused your bearing failure, the first thing that comes to mind is weather or not your slamming the back of the master. I would expect the leak to be up top if that was the case. The pedal stop is very important, you should hold the pedal firmly to the floor and adjust the clevis until the master bottoms out. Then back off two full turns.

maybe its a line failure where the lines enter the release bearing, when you get the trans out please let us know what you found, Jim over at hurst drive line will support you as well, he's very good.

Rich

[Fluid Power]

I feel your pain. I went thru the same drama. Let me drag my notes out as well and see what I can do. My RB came with 2 different thickness shims. I believe .100 and .050. I may have extra if needed. But for starters, the tech guys at RAM are awesome. I would start with them. (no offense to the Hurst guys) but it is RAM's product.

It took lots of math and measuring but I got it right and it works perfect. Much better than the 2 McLeod POS's I bought. Yes, I am very good at pulling transmissions!

Darren

[Tom.A]

Tom,

Had the same situation on my ls7/tko 600 with regards to the release point. Just barely disengaging when depressed to the floor and releasing immediatly off the floor. My numbers came up with a difference of .210 to .215 this puts you on the high side leaving to much gap between the bearing and fingers of the clutch. Another words your not depressing the pressure plate deep enough. You need to close up the gap, problem is another .100 conical shim wil close it off to much. What I did, to put me in the center of the range was machine off .050 from one of the shims and tig tack(around the perimeter) the shim on to one of the .1 shims to give me a shim that yielded
.150". This moved my difference number to .160 and now it grabs in the center of the clutch pedal travel.

I dont think that your adjusment parameters are what caused your bearing failure, the first thing that comes to mind is weather or not your slamming the back of the master. I would expect the leak to be up top if that was the case. The pedal stop is very important, you should hold the pedal firmly to the floor and adjust the clevis until the master bottoms out. Then back off two full turns.

maybe its a line failure where the lines enter the release bearing, when you get the trans out please let us know what you found, Jim over at hurst drive line will support you as well, he's very good.

Rich

Rich, Thanks for reply. I did not think of smaller shim as I just assumed .100 was the smallest. I did not get the trans out today but I did get it up and off the ground. Looking in the side and feeling lines with my finger tips it had no sign of media leaking. So I am pretty sure it is likely an o-ring failure. I will post back when I get it out. I must admit I never really fussed with a pedal stop. I will give that some thought.

I feel your pain. I went thru the same drama. Let me drag my notes out as well and see what I can do. My RB came with 2 different thickness shims. I believe .100 and .050. I may have extra if needed. But for starters, the tech guys at RAM are awesome. I would start with them. (no offense to the Hurst guys) but it is RAM's product.

It took lots of math and measuring but I got it right and it works perfect. Much better than the 2 McLeod POS's I bought. Yes, I am very good at pulling transmissions!

Darren

Darren, thanks for sharing. I suspect newer RB must come with two shims sizes. I read that the Ram 78125HD is a better offering now than a few years ago. I will call them this week and ask them. I also saw this in the Chevy Hi Performance mag: http://www.ramclutches.com/zen-cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=63&products_id=677 it seems the HD bearing has a longer travel of 1" and somehow this will help adjust? I will report back.

Thanks again for the feedback guy's:thumbsup:

[andrewb70]

Tom,

Personally I think a gap of .210" is a little much. I use a Quarter Master bearing which doesn't have nearly as much maximum travel as the Ram or Howe, so for me, every bit of travel is important. I set my LS7 clutch with about .100" air gap. The LS7 clutch is nice in that the springs don't have to move very far to achieve full release. I am using a .700" MC and have about 2" of pedal travel before the clutch starts to bite.

Since you will have to remove the trans, I would suggest rebuilding the Ram bearing, if a rebuild kit is available, and reducing your gap to about .100-.125"

Andrew

[Tom.A]

Thanks Andrew. I think agree about closing the gap more. I may still spend the money to get the heavy duty Ram TBO in hopes that it may last longer because flat backing a trans sucks!

[Fluid Power]

I have not had a chance to dig my notes out and look. I apologize. (I am reading/writing this while attending a phone meeting at work!) If I remember correctly, the RAM website has the installation instructions that you can print. I will do my best to get something tonight. If it is leaking, my guess is your travel on the clutch pedal is greater than the travel on the RB. It causes it to force fluid pass the o rings. As Andrew said, remove and rebuild (kits are cheap $13 or less) How ever, unless someone has a trick to install an o ring on an INTERNAL undercut, your best bet is to send it back to RAM and have them repair it. Ask me how I know. :(

Darren

[GrabberGT]

Must be the nature of internal HTO bearings. Mine, a Mcleod for a T5 did the same thing. After messing with it for 2 years, I finally threw in the towel and went with an external slave. So much nicer now that I can make adjustments without having to rip the bottom of the car apart to do it.

Anyone want to buy a used McLoed unit? :rolleyes:

[andrewb70]

Tom,

I would look into the Howe TOB. I like its design which incorporates a travel stop. It is also advertized as having up to .750" of travel. My Quarter Master TOB has also been quite reliable. The only time it failed is when I over-traveled it which cut the seal. The downside to the Quarter Master TOB is the rather limited travel. Thankfully my LS7 clutch doesn't need much for release, but some clutches may need up .5" of travel at the fingers to fully release. I don't have first hand experience with the Ram or McLeod, but the reviews online seem to be mixed at best.

Andrew

[Tom.A]

I pulled the trans tonight and it looks like the inner seal came apart?
The travel stop is intact so I am not sure what happened. I think I will replace the bearing because I am not really sure how to get the bearing apart
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x82/passperf/2011-10-18_21-52-47_195.jpg

[Fluid Power]

2 things happened.

Overstroked, causing the fluid to push past the o ring -or- the o ring was damaged on installation when putting it on the input shaft. Either way, call RAM, talk to tech and send it them. They will inspect and rebuild for you. Trust me, it is a ton easier to have RAM do it than do it yourself.

I cannot find my cheat sheets for my install. I must have put them away so i would not loose them and lost them. I will keep digging.

Good Luck. I do have extra shims if you need them however.

Darren

[andrewb70]

It is hard to imagine how the bearing could have been over-traveled when it has the big clip in place to prevent this from happening. Here is a picture of my Quarter Master bearing:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo30.jpg

The design is very similar to the Ram but without the travel stop ring.

Tom, did you press off the actual bearing or was it on there kind of loose?

Andrew

[Tom.A]

Darren, thanks for the offer on the shims but Ram says my new bearing will come with both sizes. I plan to send the old bearing to them to rebuild for a spare. I don't expect that they can confirm why it failed. I believe that it could be something with alignment or damaged while installing the gear box. I have had the trans on /off several times and it normally is a wrestling match.

Andrew,
The Ram bearing face just pushes on and off with little effort but it slides over the outer shoulder as shown in picture below. I thought they were all like that?
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x82/passperf/2011-10-19_22-27-38_951.jpg

[Fluid Power]

It is hard to imagine how the bearing could have been over-traveled when it has the big clip in place to prevent this from happening. Here is a picture of my Quarter Master bearing:



The design is very similar to the Ram but without the travel stop ring.

Tom, did you press off the actual bearing or was it on there kind of loose?

Andrew

Andrew, What I meant to say was that if he was not using a pedal stop, the travel on the master cylinder allowed the RB to reach the end of its stroke. (held in place by the snap ring) Since the fluid doesn't compress, it continues to flow through the RB and out around (and damaging) the O ring in the process.

Darren

Tom,

My experience with RAM is they are all like that. The bearing comes off really easy.

[andrewb70]

Andrew, What I meant to say was that if he was not using a pedal stop, the travel on the master cylinder allowed the RB to reach the end of its stroke. (held in place by the snap ring) Since the fluid doesn't compress, it continues to flow through the RB and out around (and damaging) the O ring in the process.

Darren

Tom,

My experience with RAM is they are all like that. The bearing comes off really easy.

Darren,

I understand now. So it seems that the travel limiting ring is there for a falls sense of security. Sure the bearing can't come apart, but the seal will blow anyway. LOL. For this reason it is always a good idea to have an adjustable pedal stop.

As for the bearing, my Quarter Master bearing has a light press fit on the housing. It will not just slide off.

Andrew

[sik68]

Hey Tom,

What clutch are you using? Centerforce by chance with the centrifugal weights?

Steven

[Tom.A]

Hey Tom,

What clutch are you using? Centerforce by chance with the centrifugal weights?

Steven

Hi Steven,

It is a Mcleod series 100. I got my new HD bearing in UPS Today so I hope to be back on the road soon if I get time this weekend.

[Fluid Power]

Tom,

Keep us posted. I think you are on the right track as far as using the shims and tightening up the gap.

In my install, RAM recommended installing the RB, bleeding it, and then measuring the potential travel of the RB. This will ensure that you will not over stroke the unit. (maybe you already did this?) This factors into the number and size of shims needed.

It sucks to install it, bleed it, and then install the transmission and line all of that up. I had a friend help me so it was a little more tolerable.

Let me know if you need any more help. If you are unsure of your measurements, wait and talk to RAM, or post them up. I will scour the shop for my notes.

Darren

[Fluid Power]

Tom,

Keep us posted. I think you are on the right track as far as using the shims and tightening up the gap.

In my install, RAM recommended installing the RB, bleeding it, and then measuring the potential travel of the RB by pushing in the clutch. If I remember, the travel of the RB has to be less than .5". This will ensure that you will not over stroke the unit. (maybe you already did this?) This factors into the number and size of shims needed.

It sucks to install it, bleed it, and then install the transmission and line all of that up. I had a friend help me so it was a little more tolerable.

Let me know if you need any more help. If you are unsure of your measurements, wait and talk to RAM, or post them up. I will scour the shop for my notes.

Darren