NEED HELP! Hilborn injection

[Mathi]

Hi,

I have a Z502 Chevrolet crated engine with a Hilborn fuel injection system on it. It's an electronic fuel injection with Fast ECU and other electric parts.
Now, the injection works perfect only if you stop throttle, there is some bangings in the exhaust :_paranoid . Everytime we stop throttle, there are those annoying bangings. Really loud.
Just like too much fuel...
Now, we tried everything... We contacted Hilborn and they helped us out with some instructions but it was worse after those instructions.

Now, I live in Belgium and we don't know anymore what we can do. We are far away with a system that doesn't work as it should. We have contacted here in our country, the Netherlands, Germany, etc fuel injection specialist but nobody knows this system good enough to help us out.

Can someone help me out?

Thank you!

This fuel injection system:


http://www.hilborninjection.com/product.asp?Id=429&CatId=174

[Blown353]

I've experienced this problem on several engines with FAST EFI. Individual runner intakes seem to magnify the problem of exhaust pops during overrun especially if there are sync issues between each cylinder. Get a syncrometer and check each runner to make sure the throttle blades are adjusted properly.

FAST does not have a DFCO (decel fuel cut off) function so the injectors continue to deliver the amount of fuel that is specified in the VE tables during overrun as well as typically adding O2 correction during overrun if you're running closed loop. This causes the engine to run too rich during overrun and leads to popping in the exhaust.

Do some datalogging and while driving run the engine up to high RPM and then completely let off the throttle and coast back down to a near-idle. Look at the datalog see what cells on the VE table are used for overrun then play with the fuel & timing settings in those overrun cells. Usually adding some timing and taking away a lot of the fuel in the overrun cells will take care of the popping issue. Also limit the amount of positive O2 correction fuel in the overrun areas of the O2 limit tables (XFI) or O2 correction limit menu (FAST classic). That will prevent the ECU from adding too much positive correction fuel when the mixture starts reading max lean (15.9 AFR) when you let off the throttle to coast.

Also make sure there are no air leaks in the exhaust system.

[Mathi]

ok, we will give it a try... Will update!

Thanks for your help! I really appreciate it!

[supremeefi]

Very Good info 353 , but sometimes when it's too lean on decel it backfire and burble as well. And as mentioned, timing can be a big part of it too.

Keep us posted Mathi and good luck.

[camcojb]

Very Good info 353 , but sometimes when it's too lean on decel it backfire and burble as well. And as mentioned, timing can be a big part of it too.

Keep us posted Mathi and good luck.

yeah, I ended up richening mine in the decel areas to stop it.

[GregWeld]

yeah, I ended up richening mine in the decel areas to stop it.

Same here....

It's easy enough to mess with and see which way it works out best - but too lean can pop even more than too rich... and 8 stacks "tend" to be lean because there's so much air and air speed available so quickly. That, of course, is what we like about them!

:D

[Blown353]

Very Good info 353 , but sometimes when it's too lean on decel it backfire and burble as well. And as mentioned, timing can be a big part of it too.

Keep us posted Mathi and good luck.

Good point-- I forgot to mention that as well. That's what I get for posting in a hurry from work. LOL!

A mixture that's far too lean during overrun can cause the mixture not to burn or not completely burn in the cylinders and instead the unburned fuel will build up and burn/pop in the exhaust.

It does take a little trial and error to find best amount of fuel to greatly reduce or eliminate the overrun pops. Datalogging will at least show you which cells you need to concentrate on for mixture, timing, and O2 correction limit tweaks.

Going too lean in the overrun areas can also cause a "dead spot" in the pedal at very slight throttle angle changes when transitioning out of overrun.

I still wonder why FAST hasn't added a DFCO function after all these years... it's not something that's necessary but it would sure be nice to have-- and it seems like 98% of the other ECUs out there offer it.

[supremeefi]

Good point-- I forgot to mention that as well. That's what I get for posting in a hurry from work. LOL!

A mixture that's far too lean during overrun can cause the mixture not to burn or not completely burn in the cylinders and instead the unburned fuel will build up and burn/pop in the exhaust.

It does take a little trial and error to find best amount of fuel to greatly reduce or eliminate the overrun pops. Datalogging will at least show you which cells you need to concentrate on for mixture, timing, and O2 correction limit tweaks.

Going too lean in the overrun areas can also cause a "dead spot" in the pedal at very slight throttle angle changes when transitioning out of overrun.

I still wonder why FAST hasn't added a DFCO function after all these years... it's not something that's necessary but it would sure be nice to have-- and it seems like 98% of the other ECUs out there offer it.

That's a great question, probably why Accel hasn't added "self learning". Let me tell you why.
I asked Accel a couple of years ago about adding "self learing", the answer is simple.
Most EFI's in this class use the same capacity boards, they'll only hold/do so much, period. Big Stuff has more dataloging than most others out there, but did you ever see their transient fueling tables? They suck, I think there's 3 of them. FAST now has self learning and some other "new" stuff. But again there are other things they had to leave out. Accel doesn't have self learning but has more transient fueling tables than anyone, and have you ever used their nitrous tables? I don't think they get any easier, enter the pill size and bottle pressure and it does the fuel map for you, and it's damn close.
So what do you give up? In the case of Accel, do you give up the transient tables etc that imo make it drive better than anything in this price range, or does BS3 give up their datalogging capacity that makes them a drag racers favorite? Tough choices.

Every system has some limitations, it just depends on what's important to you and your application. I have no trouble tuning the Accel without the self learning feature, I wouldn't give up the potential driveability for anything.

[camcojb]

That's a great question, probably why Accel hasn't added "self learning". Let me tell you why.
I asked Accel a couple of years ago about adding "self learing", the answer is simple.
Most EFI's in this class use the same capacity boards, they'll only hold/do so much, period. Big Stuff has more dataloging than most others out there, but did you ever see their transient fueling tables? They suck, I think there's 3 of them. FAST now has self learning and some other "new" stuff. But again there are other things they had to leave out. Accel doesn't have self learning but has more transient fueling tables than anyone, and have you ever used their nitrous tables? I don't think they get any easier, enter the pill size and bottle pressure and it does the fuel map for you, and it's damn close.
So what do you give up? In the case of Accel, do you give up the transient tables etc that imo make it drive better than anything in this price range, or does BS3 give up their datalogging capacity that makes them a drag racers favorite? Tough choices.

Every system has some limitations, it just depends on what's important to you and your application. I have no trouble tuning the Accel without the self learning feature, I wouldn't give up the potential driveability for anything.
That's good info Mark. I'd like to tune the new Accel some day. The Gen VII was not a favorite of mine, BECAUSE of those transient fueling tables and overall complexity of the overlapping of tables. That TAU vs table was not understood by any of the Accel tech guys or the EMIC's. :lol: Also not a fan of having the pro key and the cost to buy the key. My buddy's car was a procharged 406 and I don't remember what, but there was something in there we had to tweak to fix an issue. Wasted a bunch of time tuning before we were told about that area.

It was the hardest system for me to tune that I've encountered. Easy to get up and running, but hard to get perfect. We would shut certain things off trying to isolate something, and then in datalogs you'd see they were still working (think it was the O2 correction, been too long to remember).The one we had on a friends car was finally sold after a year and replaced with Fast, and ran great.

I assume the new stuff is not like this? My friend has completely re-done that car and now has a 500 rwhp LS motor in it, and we have not decided on an engine management system yet for it.

[supremeefi]

That's good info Mark. I'd like to tune the new Accel some day. The Gen VII was not a favorite of mine, BECAUSE of those transient fueling tables and overall complexity of the overlapping of tables. That TAU vs table was not understood by any of the Accel tech guys or the EMIC's. :lol: Also not a fan of having the pro key and the cost to buy the key. My buddy's car was a procharged 406 and I don't remember what, but there was something in there we had to tweak to fix an issue. Wasted a bunch of time tuning before we were told about that area.

It was the hardest system for me to tune that I've encountered. Easy to get up and running, but hard to get perfect. We would shut certain things off trying to isolate something, and then in datalogs you'd see they were still working (think it was the O2 correction, been too long to remember).The one we had on a friends car was finally sold after a year and replaced with Fast, and ran great.

I assume the new stuff is not like this? My friend has completely re-done that car and now has a 500 rwhp LS motor in it, and we have not decided on an engine management system yet for it.

I'd be happy to help Jody. Unfortunately there are too many "EMICs" that don't have a clue, on any system. There are progressions that you need to follow, and if you do I promise you the rest falls into place. I've had guys tell me that this or that system makes more peak power, that's because that's the system they know the best. x amount of spark/fuel will make x amount of peak power, period. However the curve in getting there can be made more beneficial with the right system and tuner. I've tuned some FAST, Holley and MSD Blaster/BS3, I'll take the Accel over them any day. Imo the others just don't have the features/software to maximize the hp/tq curve.

P.S. you can turn most anything off on the Accel system if you like, even the O2. And they came up with the Pro key option because too many people were fooling with stuff they didn't need to fool with, that's also the reason for the Thruster. But guess what, you can still access all the GenIIV stuff thru that software, even though on the surface the Thruster seems "dumbed down".

[camcojb]

I'd be happy to help Jody. Unfortunately there are too many "EMICs" that don't have a clue, on any system. There are progressions that you need to follow, and if you do I promise you the rest falls into place. I've had guys tell me that this or that system makes more peak power, that's because that's the system they know the best. x amount of spark/fuel will make x amount of peak power, period. However the curve in getting there can be made more beneficial with the right system and tuner. I've tuned some FAST, Holley and MSD Blaster/BS3, I'll take the Accel over them any day. Imo the others just don't have the features/software to maximize the hp/tq curve.

P.S. you can turn most anything off on the Accel system if you like, even the O2. And they came up with the Pro key option because too many people were fooling with stuff they didn't need to fool with, that's also the reason for the Thruster. But guess what, you can still access all the GenIIV stuff thru that software, even though on the surface the Thruster seems "dumbed down".

we were turning off the O2 correction, but could still see it working. So the Gen VII is still the most advanced system they have, or is it now the Thruster? I'd never be able to talk him into the Gen VII again....... :faint:

[supremeefi]

we were turning off the O2 correction, but could still see it working. So the Gen VII is still the most advanced system they have, or is it now the Thruster? I'd never be able to talk him into the Gen VII again....... :faint:

When you turn it off, Control C, then flip the switch, the O2 area will grey out. It will still read, but won't influence the air/fuel ratio.

The Gen 7 is the big brother to the Thruster, but you can buy the Thruster, for about $400.00 less than the Gen 7, and still access most all the features of the Gen 7. They have added 4 new screens on the Gen 7 recently, all the more reason there isn't room for "self learning". Imo a decent tuner doesn't need that anyway.

It's a shame he wouldn't consider it. I know Greg Weld got caught up with a crappy tuner on Accel too, it's just a shame.

[Mathi]

Hi,

This weekend we checked everything, tables, timing, airflow stacks, etc... . Everything was as prescribed. From the moment you start (cold or warm) and you throttle just for one moment, the exhaust pops hard...

We are trying now for about 3 and a half months and we are getting frustrating!
Now, we are looking for an EFI specialist from America that want to come over to help us out. So if someone knows someone high recommended that want to come over... Everything will be paid for like flight tickets till diners, etc...
It's better to invest in a real specialist...

Regards

[supremeefi]

Hi Mathi,

I would do it if it comes to that but pm me, I may have a couple guys in the U.K. that might be able to help you out. Much closer than here.

[Mathi]

Hi Mathi,

I would do it if it comes to that but pm me, I may have a couple guys in the U.K. that might be able to help you out. Much closer than here.

Ok, will do... Yes, UK is much closer and would be much easier. Check you pm.

Regards

[Mathi]

Still have problems with it...

A small movie where you can hear the popping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YB3awvk-nc

[GregWeld]

2YB3awvk-nc

[MrForce]

Still have problems with it...

A small movie where you can hear the popping:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YB3awvk-nc

What is your timing set at in the area that the popping happens. under high vacuum/light load conditions, adding timing can give the engine more time to burn the fuel in the cylinder.

Rob
Force Fuel Injection

[supremeefi]

I have his cal, it has too much fuel and not enough spark in that area. Plus there are other issues in his fuel, spark and air/fuel tables.
However until I can boot up to a live XFI I can't even send him a revised cal. What a lousy way to have to do it.

[MrForce]

I have his cal, it has too much fuel and not enough spark in that area. Plus there are other issues in his fuel, spark and air/fuel tables.
However until I can boot up to a live XFI I can't even send him a revised cal. What a lousy way to have to do it.

I have one in stock if you want to send the cal down.

Rob
[email protected]