Floater setup--yes or no

[DFRESH]

I am getting close to the next mod on the car which is putting the Fab 9 housing under the car (Moser 3rd member--thanks John Parsons) and finally have what is called a positive traction device---evidently most of the PT cars have them. Since I am the only member of the "One Legged Jihad" team left, I feel I must give into peer pressure and adopt this two wheel driven fetish.

Anyhow, it's time to make the axle purchase and brake purchase in the next month or so. The brakes will be Baer Pro Plus with 14in rotors--this is what I have up front. So, herein lies my ask to you all---I will be running power brakes--DSE's setup on the master/booster and I don't hear folks complaining about knock back with power setups. If I am not mistaking, none of the DSE cars run floaters and I am making an assumption they don't have knockback issues. Perhaps this is a bandaid and knockback does actually exist, but isn't noticed due to the extra pressue on the calipers thanks to the power assist. I will spend the 2 to 3k on the floater if I must, but don't want to waste the time, money and effort if it's really not necessary. Maybe DSE changes their axle bearings every 3 months to prevent seal leaks, wear, flex, etc. I use my car at the track--it doesn't have sticky tires under it currently (320 treadwear) and it's not mini tubbed yet---having said that, it will at some point be minitubbed and run 200 treadwears--so if doing it right is the floater, then i'm in. Lay it out for me based upon your experience--

Doug

[Vegas69]

Never assume anything in this hobby. Put a floating caliper on it and retire early. Haha

[Musclerodz]

DSE is currently retro fitting Kyle's Camaro with the new Baer floater. All power brakes do is mask the problem. If your serious about track events, do it. Also I know since your plan on using baer brakes, their floater requires is own end to be welded on so hopefully you don't already have a "done" housing.

I will have 2 baer floater set ups shipping to me this week hopefully and one is extra.

[Bryce]

Lets disect the issues that a full floater can solve.

Brake knock back, this can also be solved with a floating caliper.

Excessive bearing wear or failure, a wheel with a centerline that line up with the centerline of the bearing can greatly reduce the moment load on the bearing, increasing life.

If you brake an axle your wheel will stay attached to the axle housing. I doubt any of us will brake a good alloy axle with 200 treadware tire, even with 1000hp and drag racing. You will just not have the traction to hook up the 7000ft-lbs of torque required to break a moser 31 spline axle.

[Payton King]

First, glad your wife is on her way to recovery.

Dse changes the bearings and seals often. They drive hard and are at the shows to feature their merchandise. A failure is not an option. When they rebuilt the 69 for Optima they put the Baer floater set-up on the car...so they were running it in the 69 at Optima this year. Not sure about the 2nd gen.

The fluid volume helps hide the knock back with the fixed caliper brakes. If you do not mind the booster, I would run power brakes.

When I changed rear suspension in my car last year I went with the Moser floater. The DB unit (dual bolt pattern) It is 5x4.75 with 1/2 studs. The center register is 3.06 (which is a ford) I had them turn it down to 2.78 (Chevy) After getting the floater, I doubt that I would ever run anything different in a PT/track car if I owned it. The strength of the design and bearing spread make for a very safe and serviceable unit. It takes me longer to jack up the car, place it on jack stands and remove the wheels than it does for me to pull the axles and remove the hubs.

In my opinion there is no comparison to a standard 9 with the tapered or sealed bearing and the floater. But...and there is alway a but, the parking brake is an issue and how much lip you want on your wheels. I wanted to run a C6Z06 wheel offset, so I had plenty of room to package a custom parking brake. If you want 5 inches of lip on your wheel, it is going to be tough to do with a standard floater. The new one that is being developed that runs a C6 bearing pack and parking brake would solve all of that.

Doug, not sure if you still have my cell but give me a call 704-564-8577 and I can answer any questions you have. I have researched every floater set-up out there and can give you a ball park in cost and pros and cons of each one.

Here is what I did for a parking brake. Took my existing Wilwood hat with the intergal parking brake, machined out the center and attached it to a rotor adapter. Then machined out a bracket that is like a 9 inch flange and attached it to the floater to mount the ebrake/caliper mount.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/paytonking/DSCN3494.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/paytonking/IMG951212.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/paytonking/IMG959545.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n539/paytonking/DSCN3507.jpg

[Cris@JCG]

Doug- I have different opinion on both set ups... call me to discuss if you like.. or you can come out our way on the last week on January when we take out Blu Balz out to the Camarillo airport for a full day of abuse to shake the car out.. Suspension tuning & brake testing.. I will rent out the airport for a day for this testing.. Your welcome to bring out the 69.. It is looking like Jan 28th.. Week days are cheaper.. CHP will be out setting up cones & a course.. I hear the Ventura County CHP instructor is a great driver & instructor.. Hopefully the Pozzi's will be able to make it out also..

I do agree with Todd.. a floating caliper will keep problems down to a minimum.. Plus expense.. Floater rears require maintance but the best solution..

[TheJDMan]

Doug,
I don't know where you get 2k to 3k number. You can buy a complete Moser 9" floater you specify the width for $879.

http://www.moserengineering.com/circle-track-packages-and-parts/moser-9-full-floater-9.html

Just FYI, Once you have the 9" housing you can buy surplus center sections in virtually any ratio from any of the top NASCAR teams. I just purchased a refurbished center section with locker and polished ring & pinion gears from Roush/Yates for $850. Hendrick Motorsports also has a Performance Parts Div. which sells all manor of surplus parts.

[Blake Foster]

Speedtech is in the final stages of putting together a floater that is totally different than the rest. It will be based on the ZR1 35 Spline rear hubs and will fit any standard Corvette brake package including Baer Brakes. you also get the factory wheel speed sensor that in the near future will be able to be used for traction control as well as ABS. you will need to upgrade to ZR1 front hubs also as they ZR1 and Z06 have different wheel speed sensors in them.

[Vegas69]

Nobody had a fix for a fixed caliper, now the market is flooded with options. Somebody start beating up their set up so we know which choice is the RIGHT one.

[TheJDMan]

Floating hubs have been widely used in circle track racing for over 25 years and as a result the designs are proven, inexpensive, readily available and for the most part interchangeable between manufacturers. But floaters seem to be an emerging feature in PT builds and as such those of us who have gone that direction with conventional floaters have been forced to fabircate some brake parts in order to use 13" and 14" rotors. But there are just a couple of parts that if someone would start producing would allow the use of any conventional floater setup with big brakes. These items are 1. a rotor adaptor with a 12 on 8.750 bolt circle and 2. caliper brackets with a clamp on mount which could be tack welded to the housing once properly positioned.

The thing I have noticed in the PT community is that rather than using a conventional floater from established manufacturers which are reasonably priced then supplying the parts to mount big brakes, PT manufactures are re-inventing the wheel so to speak with unconventional non-standard floating setups which are different but not necessarily stronger designs and then charging nearly twice or more the price. I have a hard time swallowing these reinvented floaters selling for two or three times more, when you can buy a complete 9" floater from Moser for $879 in any width. I get the sense that these PT manufactures are trying to tap into an emering PT floater market and trying to get maximum profits and in process taking advantage of the PT community.

I know I talk up circle track floaters ad nausium, but I am simply trying to spread the word to the PT community that you can run 9" floaters from a slew of existing circle track manufacturers for very reasonable prices.

[Vegas69]

This isn't circle track.com These are street cars and I know you have 0 miles on your set up. It may prove to be a reliable street/track setup, but time will tell.

[onelapduster]

Watching with interest, have been researching this subject for a few months.

[Payton King]

from Moser and it has been fine. Which part do you not think will not be reliable?

Not all floaters will work in our cars from the circle track world. Most have 5/8 studs and a center register that would be too long to have a center cap on your rim. There are a couple of alternatives that will work.

The two that I found to be the best was the Moser DB floater and the Speedway unit. With the Speedway unit they will re-drill the hub to run 1/2 studs instead of the 5/8's. If I remember correctly, the Speedway housing, aluminum hubs redrilled and axles was around $1600. Moser price was listed above.

Is Speed Tech working with Chicane to produce and market his floater that is in development?

[Vegas69]

I just don't trust anything anymore until it's been tested for a reasonable duration. I like the sealed corvette bearing setup for a bullet proof solution. I bet speedtech and chicane are working together.

[ccracin]

I just don't trust anything anymore until it's been tested for a reasonable duration. I like the sealed corvette bearing setup for a bullet proof solution. I bet speedtech and chicane are working together.

Todd,

With respect, I gotta say the circle track floater setups especially those from speedway have more hours of testing and abuse to prove the design than anything the PT community is bringing out right now. The only un-known if you will is the braking packages. However they are also unknowns on the PT specific floater packages. I would have no issue running any of the Moser, Speedway, AFCO products from the circle track world on any Street Track Car or All Out Track car for that matter. There are parts being sold to the PT community for multiple times the price you can get them for from the racing world. Not all, but some. I think as long as anyone does their research and is comfortable with their own decisions it is not an issue. But, back to topic, the "circle track" floaters are top notch. That Corvette Sealed Bearing setup as part of a floater is the least tested solution mentioned in this thread. Mark S. has the only real time on them, that i have been able to find. I certainly take his word for its performance, but that is only 1 test so far. I hope all these solutions pan out. The more choices, the better the pricing. We all win! I certainly am not trying to argue with you, just impart some of the benefit of my past research when I was a circle track racer! :cheers:

[Blake Foster]

from Moser and it has been fine. Which part do you not think will not be reliable?

Not all floaters will work in our cars from the circle track world. Most have 5/8 studs and a center register that would be too long to have a center cap on your rim. There are a couple of alternatives that will work.

The two that I found to be the best was the Moser DB floater and the Speedway unit. With the Speedway unit they will re-drill the hub to run 1/2 studs instead of the 5/8's. If I remember correctly, the Speedway housing, aluminum hubs redrilled and axles was around $1600. Moser price was listed above.

Is Speed Tech working with Chicane to produce and market his floater that is in development?

Yes would be the short answer.
This Set up is all OEM stuff, ZR1 Corvette, so i figure it has been tested already. the packaging is super tight also no special wheels the off set should not change from a standard 2.5" ford , i will need to confirm that.

[Blake Foster]

[QUOTE=ccracin;389494]Todd,

That Corvette Sealed Bearing setup as part of a floater is the least tested solution mentioned in this thread. Mark S. has the only real time on them, that i have been able to find. I certainly take his word for its performance, but that is only 1 test so far.

Other than all the testing GM has done ofcourse. :cheers:
the only part of the set up that is any different than a factory Corvette is the Billet housing end.
speedtech is excited to be able bring this product to market.

[ccracin]

[QUOTE=ccracin;389494]Todd,

That Corvette Sealed Bearing setup as part of a floater is the least tested solution mentioned in this thread. Mark S. has the only real time on them, that i have been able to find. I certainly take his word for its performance, but that is only 1 test so far.

Other than all the testing GM has done ofcourse. :cheers:
the only part of the set up that is any different than a factory Corvette is the Billet housing end.
speedtech is excited to be able bring this product to market.

I knew the way I worded that was going to come back and bite me! :lol: You are correct, but the billet end housing is also mounted to a live axle being driven by a floating axle and not an IRS knuckle being driven by a CV stub shaft. (If that has any importance at all:lol: ) My point was that the circle track floater as an assembly minus only different brake packages has been tested and well proven for years and years. I agree with your point, but the complete assembly to Todd's point has not. Don't get me wrong Blake from what Chicane has shown I think it is a great piece and solves the down sides of the racing floaters applied to the street. That's what all this is all about. Getting better and pushing the envelope. Everyone has their own set of criteria when buying. As I also said before if you do your research and make an informed decision and you are happy, Excellent! The more choices the better. If one of Todd's criteria is testing than he needs to make choices based on that. Another guy may want the latest trick part regardless of testing, so be it. I have no doubt you will have success with this part. I just wanted to throw out that the quote"circle track" stuff is well tested and proven. :cheers:

[Vegas69]

Tested and well proven on the racetrack. Not 10,000 miles on the street. I may be dead wrong but often times RACE parts don't make for reliable street parts. A tried and tested GM ZR1 hub is tested. I agree the adaptation could cause issues. The ZR1 hub set up isn't really a floating design. If it's good enough for a ZR1 it's to good for me. :lol:

[Blake Foster]

Tested and well proven on the racetrack. Not 10,000 miles on the street. I may be dead wrong but often times RACE parts don't make for reliable street parts. A tried and tested GM ZR1 hub is tested. I agree the adaptation could cause issues. The ZR1 hub set up isn't really a floating design. If it's good enough for a ZR1 it's to good for me. :lol:

I was not getting defensive. and do agree that RACE parts are not always the BEST Sterrt parts, actually in alot of cases probably exactly the opposite, like say aluminum connecting rod.
The ZR1 hubs are the part of Choice due to the fact that they have 35 splines, and the larger bearing pack and thicker wheel flange compared to the standard C5 / Z06 rear hub.
another good point Todd "If it's good enough for a ZR1 it's to good for me."
but some people just have a different piont of view, and those consumers is who these products are aimed at, no doubt about it.

[Vegas69]

When I said to good, I meant no way in hell I'd be able to compromise the part. That's EXACTLY what I want. :thumbsup:

[ccracin]

If it's good enough for a ZR1 it's to good for me. :lol:

It's hard to argue that! :thumbsup:

[Blake Foster]

When I said to good, I meant no way in hell I'd be able to compromise the part. That's EXACTLY what I want. :thumbsup:

Sorry i mis understood :_paranoid

[DFRESH]

Thanks for the feedback. Payton, yes, still have your number and thanks for the offer. Will hope to reach out and connect this weekend.

I am aware that several types and brands of floater setups are out there, including the circle track components. Having some friends in the "Rearend Business" (and i'm not referring to Dave Gordon--just because he lives in San Fran), i've had some conversations with Currie and and few others about the various setups they would typically reccommend for what I was doing. The honest answer back was that they didn't have anyone they knew driving long distances plus tracking the car. It's not what a floater was designed to do---doesn't mean it won't work in that manner--(I am quoting here on these 2points). Thus, i am left with only those of you with real world experience and what exactly that experience has been like for you up to this point.

I got the 2 to 3 thousand dollar figure from the cost of the parts and the labor to install on my housing plus the extras I don't know about.

Thank you again for the input. I do believe that a true floater setup is safer and more durable, which is appealing also.

FYI, i do know one sure method to cure knock back---convert back to drum brakes. Mine still work--but I continue to take severe abuse everywhere I go.

Doug

[Matt@BOS]

Doug, if you have your heart set on those big pretty Baer calipers, go for it. If you think you need a floater, and you want to shell out the cash, get one of those too. Personally, if I were running fixed calipers I'd get one of these floater contraptions, be it Speedway's, or the soon to be released Speed Tech piece), etc. We tend to do what we want in this hobby, because it is exactly that - a hobby. A lot of our decisions are based on what makes us happy and fits our budget. Hell, I buy stuff because it looks cool, it sounds impressively engineered, and it is supposed to work well, (pro touring companies must have good marketing departments :lol: ) Anyway you've been around cars long enough to know that no two of our cars are alike, and as such there is no such thing as modern OEM reliability. We can each tell you what works for us, or what doesn't, but I bet that even if you copied one of our exact setups you'd get different results. You've been around cars so long you know there are pros and cons to everything. Picking parts isn't exactly a crap shoot, but everything works a little differently for each unique car.

Anyway, for some reason tonight I felt like summerizing points brought up in most of the floater discussions I've read and adding a few of my own points. haha, here it goes, with named and numbered setups:

1. the purple car version 1: 7/8" manual master cylinders and fixed calipers on conventional axles, i.e. torino big bearings with big wheels. This sucks!

2. the Vegas Special I don't know if there are other things that constitute a "Vegas Special," but we're talking about cars here. 1" master cylinders with tapered bearings and floater calipers. Todd says they're not half bad!Then again, Payback has a ZL1 that, Doug, makes everything on his car a touch better than our little small block low riders.

3. DSE: power booster with big ass fixed calipers and torino bearings. It works? Kyle checks the tolerances on every bearing going into his car because some are manufactured tighter than others. I wish this was an urban legend among the pro-touring community. Actually maybe it is, maybe it will be. Maybe Kyle is trying to psych us all out, but seeing as how he is an engineer, I think inspecting each and every bearing is more likely. Anyway, that s*** is intense - checking EVERY bearing to try and get rid of knock back. :faint: Lastly, let's not forget Kyle doesn't need fancy floating axles to beat us. He just drives better than us because he kind of does this for a living now.

4. Finch's King of every event Camaro DSE setup plus a 10lb residual pressure valve. I think it probably still had a little knock back...

5. purple car version 2: manual brakes and fixed calipers on a floater from Speedway Engineering. It works, and has been for 7000 miles!

6. "Lateral Dynamic's" Mark's old Camaro that no one remembers This thing probably existed sometime before written history up to 7ish years ago? so we can't be sure if it had manual brakes, power brakes, or Flinstone foot brakes. It probably had Wilwood fixed brakes. It also had a Moser circle track floater. Every time I see Mark he tells me it was garbage, and the the tolerances weren't good.

7. Dead Cat version 2: Newer than Mark's. Manual brakes and fixed calipers on a floater by Moser. It works!

8. ZR1 hub based floater It seems to have been invented simultaneously between Chicane and Steilow, kind of like how Newton and Leibniz both independently invented Calculus. Surely this must be revolutionary. Steilow claims it accommodates ABS functionality, stops knock back, and leaking... I think. It even stops leaking? every axle I've had leaks. I need to buy one of these to try out on my next project.

9. What works for Ford... Most new cars have IRS setups. The Mustang still uses a live axle. It also uses power brakes and floating calipers. Even the Grand Am Mustang race cars use that dinky little floating caliper.

10. The Renner mobile: If we all applied the logic of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," perhaps all of us would be running around with drum brakes on our old solid axle vintage cars. Sadly this is not the case, and I shed a tear as you move on from your days of one-legged-jihading it up with those self energizing prototype rear drum brakes. If you post them for sale I want first shot at them since I gave you a deal on that subframe...

*EDIT* 11. ... A pretty Penny How could I forget about Steve's car. If you bought it, you wouldn't have to worry about knock back. He has a 1" manual master cylinder with fixed calipers and tapered bearings. When Currie put in the tapered bearings they made sure to straighten the axle because previous work on it had caused it to warp, I believe.

Other things that may or may not work...
Hydroboost? anyone have experience with hydroboost and knock back?

Also, Stacey now has a Baer floater. Seems like everyone has been getting a few in for the last year and a half, and yet Stacey's car has the only one I've ever seen. we all have every reason to assume that it works, but damn is it expensive.

I'm sure I missed something, so feel free to something, anything...

Matt

[Musclerodz]

for the record, baer floater uses speedway made parts, and at least with the quadralink, Wes at DSE pretty sure they reused the same backspacing even after the conversion so the "dish look" is maintained which may not be able to do with some of the other aftermarket suspensions

[Flash68]

Having some friends in the "Rearend Business" (and i'm not referring to Dave Gordon--just because he lives in San Fran),

Whoa whoa whoa... I thought I had to only worry about Todd on this one... now YOU are gonna go there? You BASTAGE!! :lol:

You don't post much no more Dougie... but when you do.... you drink Dos Equis? :cheers:

[clill]

My two cents...If you are going to track your car and push it hard I would do a floater. If you are going to street drive your car and maybe hit the track once a year for a fun day I wouldn't worry about it. I hate puck knockback. Jackass has it and it really gets your attention when you are doing 100 mph, hit the brakes and the pedal drops instead of slowing the car. You simply need to hit the pedal again but when you are running out of stopping room it really gets your attention. For any people that don't know what knock back is...When there is slop in the bearings or slop anywhere, the rotor flexes, when it flexes it pushes the piston behind the brake pad back into the cylinder. When you step on the brakes you waste the first push on the brakes just getting that brake pad back out to the rotor. You then hit the brakes again to actually apply the brakes.

[Stuart Adams]

My two cents...If you are going to track your car and push it hard I would do a floater. If you are going to street drive your car and maybe hit the track once a year for a fun day I wouldn't worry about it. I hate puck knockback. Jackass has it and it really gets your attention when you are doing 100 mph, hit the brakes and the pedal drops instead of slowing the car. You simply need to hit the pedal again but when you are running out of stopping room it really gets your attention. For any people that don't know what knock back is...When there is slop in the bearings or slop anywhere, the rotor flexes, when it flexes it pushes the piston behind the brake pad back into the cylinder. When you step on the brakes you waste the first push on the brakes just getting that brake pad back out to the rotor. You then hit the brakes again to actually apply the brakes.

With how fast JA is I'll bet hitting the brakes with no results the first time will test your scones.

[Vegas69]

All I can say is when I ran 5 sessioins at Buttonwillow with 2 year old axle bearings, I had 0 knockback. :D For once I took the economical route and it works. I do want to switch to a 7/8 master eventually and that could change things. Your real problem is Baer doesn't offer a decent floating caliper. You are forced into a floating rear end if you want 0 knockback. If you aren't in a hurry, give it some time for this new baer setup along with the Speedtech to get some miles under their belts. I also feel if you keep the rear wheel lip where it is currently, you will have less knockback naturally. A 5.25/5.5" BS on a 12" rim looks great but it puts a ton of leverage on a bearing. Matt over at Art Morrison calculated it for me and it is 5 or 10 times greater(Don't remember) than what the bearing was engineered for originally. FYI Have you ever seen a deep dish on a Corvette.:unibrow:

[DFRESH]

Doug, if you have your heart set on those big pretty Baer calipers, go for it. If you think you need a floater, and you want to shell out the cash, get one of those too. Personally, if I were running fixed calipers I'd get one of these floater contraptions, be it Speedway's, or the soon to be released Speed Tech piece), etc. We tend to do what we want in this hobby, because it is exactly that - a hobby. A lot of our decisions are based on what makes us happy and fits our budget. Hell, I buy stuff because it looks cool, it sounds impressively engineered, and it is supposed to work well, (pro touring companies must have good marketing departments :lol: ) Anyway you've been around cars long enough to know that no two of our cars are alike, and as such there is no such thing as modern OEM reliability. We can each tell you what works for us, or what doesn't, but I bet that even if you copied one of our exact setups you'd get different results. You've been around cars so long you know there are pros and cons to everything. Picking parts isn't exactly a crap shoot, but everything works a little differently for each unique car.

Anyway, for some reason tonight I felt like summerizing points brought up in most of the floater discussions I've read and adding a few of my own points. haha, here it goes, with named and numbered setups:

1. the purple car version 1: 7/8" manual master cylinders and fixed calipers on conventional axles, i.e. torino big bearings with big wheels. This sucks!

2. the Vegas Special I don't know if there are other things that constitute a "Vegas Special," but we're talking about cars here. 1" master cylinders with tapered bearings and floater calipers. Todd says they're not half bad!Then again, Payback has a ZL1 that, Doug, makes everything on his car a touch better than our little small block low riders.

3. DSE: power booster with big ass fixed calipers and torino bearings. It works? Kyle checks the tolerances on every bearing going into his car because some are manufactured tighter than others. I wish this was an urban legend among the pro-touring community. Actually maybe it is, maybe it will be. Maybe Kyle is trying to psych us all out, but seeing as how he is an engineer, I think inspecting each and every bearing is more likely. Anyway, that s*** is intense - checking EVERY bearing to try and get rid of knock back. :faint: Lastly, let's not forget Kyle doesn't need fancy floating axles to beat us. He just drives better than us because he kind of does this for a living now.

4. Finch's King of every event Camaro DSE setup plus a 10lb residual pressure valve. I think it probably still had a little knock back...

5. purple car version 2: manual brakes and fixed calipers on a floater from Speedway Engineering. It works, and has been for 7000 miles!

6. "Lateral Dynamic's" Mark's old Camaro that no one remembers This thing probably existed sometime before written history up to 7ish years ago? so we can't be sure if it had manual brakes, power brakes, or Flinstone foot brakes. It probably had Wilwood fixed brakes. It also had a Moser circle track floater. Every time I see Mark he tells me it was garbage, and the the tolerances weren't good.

7. Dead Cat version 2: Newer than Mark's. Manual brakes and fixed calipers on a floater by Moser. It works!

8. ZR1 hub based floater It seems to have been invented simultaneously between Chicane and Steilow, kind of like how Newton and Leibniz both independently invented Calculus. Surely this must be revolutionary. Steilow claims it accommodates ABS functionality, stops knock back, and leaking... I think. It even stops leaking? every axle I've had leaks. I need to buy one of these to try out on my next project.

9. What works for Ford... Most new cars have IRS setups. The Mustang still uses a live axle. It also uses power brakes and floating calipers. Even the Grand Am Mustang race cars use that dinky little floating caliper.

10. The Renner mobile: If we all applied the logic of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," perhaps all of us would be running around with drum brakes on our old solid axle vintage cars. Sadly this is not the case, and I shed a tear as you move on from your days of one-legged-jihading it up with those self energizing prototype rear drum brakes. If you post them for sale I want first shot at them since I gave you a deal on that subframe...

*EDIT* 11. ... A pretty Penny How could I forget about Steve's car. If you bought it, you wouldn't have to worry about knock back. He has a 1" manual master cylinder with fixed calipers and tapered bearings. When Currie put in the tapered bearings they made sure to straighten the axle because previous work on it had caused it to warp, I believe.

Other things that may or may not work...
Hydroboost? anyone have experience with hydroboost and knock back?

Also, Stacey now has a Baer floater. Seems like everyone has been getting a few in for the last year and a half, and yet Stacey's car has the only one I've ever seen. we all have every reason to assume that it works, but damn is it expensive.

I'm sure I missed something, so feel free to something, anything...

Matt

Purple Car, second edition---LOL. Great summary and great feedback. With your setup are you able to run the parking brake?

D

[DFRESH]

Whoa whoa whoa... I thought I had to only worry about Todd on this one... now YOU are gonna go there? You BASTAGE!! :lol:

You don't post much no more Dougie... but when you do.... you drink Dos Equis? :cheers:

I do stay thristy my friend--but mostly for Apple Pie.

[GregWeld]

My two cents...If you are going to track your car and push it hard I would do a floater. If you are going to street drive your car and maybe hit the track once a year for a fun day I wouldn't worry about it. I hate puck knockback. Jackass has it and it really gets your attention when you are doing 100 mph, hit the brakes and the pedal drops instead of slowing the car. You simply need to hit the pedal again but when you are running out of stopping room it really gets your attention. For any people that don't know what knock back is...When there is slop in the bearings or slop anywhere, the rotor flexes, when it flexes it pushes the piston behind the brake pad back into the cylinder. When you step on the brakes you waste the first push on the brakes just getting that brake pad back out to the rotor. You then hit the brakes again to actually apply the brakes.

:hail: :faint: This is the most Charley has ever said.... and a technical post as well!!:thumbsup: :D

No knock back on the Mustang.... so do I owe you more money? Or is it that I just can't drive it fast enough.... :lol:

[DFRESH]

All I can say is when I ran 5 sessioins at Buttonwillow with 2 year old axle bearings, I had 0 knockback. :D For once I took the economical route and it works. I do want to switch to a 7/8 master eventually and that could change things. Your real problem is Baer doesn't offer a decent floating caliper. You are forced into a floating rear end if you want 0 knockback. If you aren't in a hurry, give it some time for this new baer setup along with the Speedtech to get some miles under their belts. I also feel if you keep the rear wheel lip where it is currently, you will have less knockback naturally. A 5.25/5.5" BS on a 12" rim looks great but it puts a ton of leverage on a bearing. Matt over at Art Morrison calculated it for me and it is 5 or 10 times greater(Don't remember) than what the bearing was engineered for originally. FYI Have you ever seen a deep dish on a Corvette.:unibrow:

Ya, that makes total sense---the more lip the more leverage ability it would have/create along with the tire and its much larger contact patch. I like the approach of not being in a hurry as you know---I have been watching a couple of cars with these setups in them---but like Matt said, everyone is using them a bit differently. James Shipka and Matt---possibly Payton--have the most street miles on their cars at this point with these setups in them. I only want to do this once and not regret it later---would rather go with too much than not enough given future plans for the car--you know how that goes. The thought of what you have described to me (I beleive it was at Optima event when we were there with you car) and Charlie's description of hitting the brakes at that kind of speed and having to pump the pedal---there's just no way I am going to take the chance. Pay now, or pay later.

Doug

[GregWeld]

I do stay thristy my friend--but mostly for Apple Pie.



You guys should appreciate that more if you watch "Moonshiners" on the TV -- I had no idea just how much trouble a guy could get into...

Gawd I'm glad I don't drink (anymore).... so I can still feel my lips.

[Flash68]

All I can say is when I ran 5 sessioins at Buttonwillow with 2 year old axle bearings, I had 0 knockback. :D For once I took the economical route and it works. I do want to switch to a 7/8 master eventually and that could change things. Your real problem is Baer doesn't offer a decent floating caliper. You are forced into a floating rear end if you want 0 knockback. If you aren't in a hurry, give it some time for this new baer setup along with the Speedtech to get some miles under their belts. I also feel if you keep the rear wheel lip where it is currently, you will have less knockback naturally. A 5.25/5.5" BS on a 12" rim looks great but it puts a ton of leverage on a bearing. Matt over at Art Morrison calculated it for me and it is 5 or 10 times greater(Don't remember) than what the bearing was engineered for originally. FYI Have you ever seen a deep dish on a Corvette.:unibrow:

So I've wondered why my knockback seems to be mininal compared to you other guys with your fancy wheels and I guess this explains it? Maybe I should just keep the damn Vette wheels.... :D

[Vegas69]

Nah, you just don't drive fast enough. :D

[fleetus macmullitz]

You guys should appreciate that more if you watch "Moonshiners" on the TV --



Better than that, I think someone here is livin it. :wow:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/wnyjazz/Funnies/ginfull.jpg

[coolwelder62]

Floater,Yes.:thumbsup:

[DFRESH]

Hey, all my favorite theadjackers are here! Greg, Scott, Matt, Skip, Todd & DG---I guess things are back to normal in my world---now, if only IronWorks would say something--I'd feel complete.

[Flash68]

Nah, you just don't drive fast enough. :D

Maybe you're right... so I'm leavin a lot on the table then.... I'll have to remedy that before we meet again. :unibrow:

Better than that, I think someone here is livin it. :wow:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k156/wnyjazz/Funnies/ginfull.jpg

Gin... the only way to make a Martini :)

[fleetus macmullitz]

--now, if only IronWorks would say something--I'd feel complete.

Dub, if it's completin' ya need...

2SzE08aInn4

[James OLC]

Updating the OLC as we speak...

http://www.onelapcamaro.com/2012OLC/Floaterpic.jpg

OLC2 will be using Chicane/SpeedTech setup

[Flash68]

As the big names in PT already have changed, and others follow, one of these various floater systems will soon be a "must have" for all future big time PT builds, whether the driver/owner really needs it or not. It was just a matter of time...

James, did you have bad knockback in your previous setup?

[James OLC]

I would not say that I had an issue with knockback... and it certainly never was "bad"... but from time to time - depending on the track - it was noticable. I've got manual brakes and pretty finely tuned masters and honestly never felt that the problem was bad enough that I had to change but after the issues that we had last year during the One Lap with the bearings we were going to have to make some changes regardless.

There have been a lot of comments made about the increased cost of the floater setups - regardless of the manufacturer - but one consideration that helps offset the floater costs is that the axes are less then half the the cost of high quality solid axles.

We've got to tack some brackets on, bend up some brake lines and we should be good to go. Currie Enterprises did the assembly on the Baer Floater and everything looks promising so far.

Tom's design using the Corvette hubs should be awesome, especially since it will allow for a lot of potentially cool benefits...

[Vegas69]

James brings up an issue I was going to address in my previous post. Axle bearing maintenence with tapered bearings is costly over the life of the car. The question is, are these other floaters any better from that standpoint? I'd have to say yes to a point. The corvette hub design will prove to be the cats meow. As if Stielows word isn't enough.

[Matt@BOS]

I don't think floaters are that hard to maintain. At least I don't have to put silicone to seal the axles from leaking constantly, which is a plus. I also decided against building camber into the housing because I was a little bit afraid of increased wear and tear. Not sure how real those fears were though. All I would say, and I couldn't help but think of this when I saw the OLC floater, is to make sure to put in some inner tube axle seals if you're planning on driving lots of miles of interstate and track time. You probably have it all figured out James, but I figured I'd throw it out because most people aren't aware of the inner tube axles seals. At least I wasn't. I think Payton suggested I use them to prevent a tiny bit of leaking I've had during track time. On the One Lap they would provide added peace of to help insure that the grease on the floater's bearings doesn't get washed out.

Doug, as to your question, I am not running an internal hat style parking brake. I wasn't really thinking about it at the time. I figure I can always just add little caliper to the rear rotor if I want.

BTW, I missed you and the Rennermobile at Cars and Coffee. My car "decided" to show up with a flat tire again just to strike up some good conversation without you around.

Matt

[Blake Foster]

So I've wondered why my knockback seems to be mininal compared to you other guys with your fancy wheels and I guess this explains it? Maybe I should just keep the damn Vette wheels.... :D

Todd asked it you have ever seen a deep dish on a Corvette.

I would answer Yes it is just all to the inside. which in theory "this is my theory right or wrong" would just load the bearing the opposite way???

Matt made a post commenting on the master cyl sizes possibly making a differance in the knock back. and resicual pressure valves, i think i remeber Mark S saying the RES Valve made no differance and in theory it shouldn't make any differance as it is only holding pressure not stopping reverse flow back to the MC.
I run a tripple master set up with a 7/8 front and 1" rear and could probably change the rear to a 7/8 as i have ath balance bar adjusted full rear. i have the Bare Proplus with tapered bearings (they dont leak.... yet) and there is a sligth amount of knockback still, I will likley change to the ZR1 floater before RTTC.

[Matt@BOS]

Todd asked it you have ever seen a deep dish on a Corvette.

I would answer Yes it is just all to the inside. which in theory "this is my theory right or wrong" would just load the bearing the opposite way???

Matt made a post commenting on the master cyl sizes possibly making a differance in the knock back. and resicual pressure valves, i think i remeber Mark S saying the RES Valve made no differance and in theory it shouldn't make any differance as it is only holding pressure not stopping reverse flow back to the MC.
I run a tripple master set up with a 7/8 front and 1" rear and could probably change the rear to a 7/8 as i have ath balance bar adjusted full rear. i have the Bare Proplus with tapered bearings (they dont leak.... yet) and there is a sligth amount of knockback still, I will likley change to the ZR1 floater before RTTC.

Blake, I don't remember exactly what I said, or if I accidentally typed "would" instead of "wouldn't" or something to that effect. I'm going to just play the "it was late" card right off the bat :lol: Anyway from what I remember hearing, the 10lb residiual valve wasn't a noticeable difference. It has also been interesting hearing Charlie's commentary about Jackass. From all the "internet science and engineering" we've gathered, (and I don't feel like rehashing all of the talk about m/c bore sizes, etc.) the popular belief seems to be that a larger master makes knock back less noticeable, as would 'Vette wheels, and yet Jackass's pedal would fall to the floor just like the pedal in my car with its little 7/8 master and 6" backspaced wheels.

Matt

[GregWeld]

Don't forget an important wheel factor....

If your offset is all to the inside (Corvette) the outside edge is what is seeing the load on a corner -- and the inside edge of opposite side is unloaded for the most part.... and that can be 100's of pounds difference between the loads seen at the bearing/rotor vs a "deep dish" style wheel.

[GregWeld]

I forgot to add -- the more grip a car has - the more "G" force it can produce -- thus multiplying the weight of the car "side loads".... and I'm sure most of these big ass fatty tired cars are capable of 1 g +.... so now you hang that big wide tire - on a deep dish wheel and put it way to the outside of the bearing/rotor and it's no wonder we're seeing this discussion.

I thought we learned about LEVERAGE in the 4th grade??

[Vegas69]

I love Monday morning quarter backs. I suppose you are a Tebow fan to?

[GregWeld]

Sometimes it seems it takes a lot of time for some of you to figure this all out.... I'm not sure we can live thru 3 more years of shock adjusting. :rofl:

Maybe go out and buy a separate set of wheels and tires for the track events... and save yourself a whole bunch of bs..... But then I forgot the whole Optima argument about race cars on the street... :unibrow:

[GregWeld]

Just to be clear -- my '32 Ford has a full floater rear end... by definition... :D

The drive axle is driving a floating stub axle and thus only transmits the torque load...

[Matt@BOS]

Sometimes it seems it takes a lot of time for some of you to figure this all out.... I'm not sure we can live thru 3 more years of shock adjusting. :rofl:

Maybe go out and buy a separate set of wheels and tires for the track events... and save yourself a whole bunch of bs..... But then I forgot the whole Optima argument about race cars on the street... :unibrow:

By wheels and tires for a track day, do you mean something kind of similar to this :unibrow:
http://mustangsdaily.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/01-1965-shelby-gt350-r.jpg

Or do you actually mean just wheels and tires?

Matt

[Matt@BOS]

I love Monday morning quarter backs. I suppose you are a Tebow fan to?

Oh that reminds me, has anyone tried this approach to solving knockback?

http://www.chicagonow.com/lists-that-actually-matter/files/2011/11/tebowing.png

Matt

[fleetus macmullitz]

I thought we learned about LEVERAGE in the 4th grade??

Sometimes it seems it takes a lot of time for some of you to figure this all out.... I'm not sure we can live thru 3 more years of shock adjusting. :rofl:



For a fat guy you're not very jolly.

[Vegas69]

Oh that reminds me, has anyone tried this approach to solving knockback?

http://www.chicagonow.com/lists-that-actually-matter/files/2011/11/tebowing.png

Matt

:rofl:

[GregWeld]

By wheels and tires for a track day, do you mean something kind of similar to this :unibrow:
http://mustangsdaily.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/01-1965-shelby-gt350-r.jpg

Or do you actually mean just wheels and tires?

Matt


Yep ---- You want to track a car buy a track car... leave the show car at home.

:rofl:

[GregWeld]

For a fat guy you're not very jolly.



:rofl: :rofl:


Want a perfect "race car" just buy a new $60,000 Corvette... save yourself all the hassle. I've beat on 'em for days at the track - no knock back whatsoever!

:D

[Matt@BOS]

:rofl: :rofl:


Want a perfect "race car" just buy a new $60,000 Corvette... save yourself all the hassle. I've beat on 'em for days at the track - no knock back whatsoever!

:D

Yeah, that would probably be cheaper than buying a set of HREs and track tires for the "show car."

I await a come back Greg. Doug's thread still has tinge of relevancy right now, and you need to correct that!

[GregWeld]

Yeah - if he wasn't so cheap he'd just pony up and buy "another" race car... 3 '69 Camaro's -- Drag - Road race - and the Donk....

[Blake Foster]

Blake, I don't remember exactly what I said, or if I accidentally typed "would" instead of "wouldn't" or something to that effect. I'm going to just play the "it was late" card right off the bat :lol: Anyway from what I remember hearing, the 10lb residiual valve wasn't a noticeable difference. It has also been interesting hearing Charlie's commentary about Jackass. From all the "internet science and engineering" we've gathered, (and I don't feel like rehashing all of the talk about m/c bore sizes, etc.) the popular belief seems to be that a larger master makes knock back less noticeable, as would 'Vette wheels, and yet Jackass's pedal would fall to the floor just like the pedal in my car with its little 7/8 master and 6" backspaced wheels.

Matt

I hear yat Matt lots of different ideas to consider, I guess it could all be a thing of the past if the bake companies just made the caliers floating??
FYI on my car with the triple master set up the worst case is that you ave to tap the brake pedal to reset the pads, and Jay and I have just got in the habit of doing that but it NEVER falls to the Floor.

[ccracin]

I guess it could all be a thing of the past if the brake companies just made the calipers floating??


I think you hit the nail on the head there Blake. When the brake companies started introducing the large by huge brake packages, they did it with fixed calipers. They look awesome! These were originally racing pieces typically mounted on floating rears or IRS set-ups. This goes back to Todd's point about racing parts on the street. They seemed to be fine and look great until you start tracking a car and applying loads to the rear axles much greater than any situation you would encounter on the street. Now with the higher loads, knock back is an issue. So now the question is, do you go back to a more street caliper (floating) set-up or do you go to the more race rear end (floating). Or you come up with a solution like you and Chicane are bringing to market. This is one of the things I like about the Pro-Touring movement I'll call it, a problem arises and there are companies willing to step-up and solve it with parts available to the masses. Good Stuff! Now the hard part, what do I do on our truck? I had thought about this in the beginning and tried to make decision accordingly, but now I'm not sure. Our rear is a 9" with Big Bearing ends and tapered rollers on the 31 spline Moser Axles. The rear brakes are the 14" Wilwood 4 Piston Radial Mount deals. The rear wheel will be 10" with about 4.25 to 4.5" of back space. Speaking pretty honestly, this will not be a "Track" vehicle. Maybe once or twice just to stretch it's legs. It will spend the bulk of it's time on the street and doing some auto crossing. Is the auto crossing enough to warrant a whole sale change in rear end and expensive brakes? The brakes were mostly for looks to fill a 20" wheel. Don't know! Decisions Decisions :cheers:

[GrnDragon]

Lots of good info and discussion going on here!

Does anyone know off-hand which inner axle seals will work with a 35 spline axle? I have been looking for a while and all the seals I find only claim to fit 31 spline.

And throughout this entire thread I didn't see any mention of the GMR setup, that's what I decided to buy.

[DFRESH]

Lots of good info and discussion going on here!

Does anyone know off-hand which inner axle seals will work with a 35 spline axle? I have been looking for a while and all the seals I find only claim to fit 31 spline.

And throughout this entire thread I didn't see any mention of the GMR setup, that's what I decided to buy.

Yeah, I was hoping Jason might chime in here--why did you decide to go with his setup?

[GrnDragon]

Yeah, I was hoping Jason might chime in here--why did you decide to go with his setup?

I decided on his after A LOT of research, but at the time the only Full Floaters that were available were Moser, Speedway, and The GMR. I was sold on the bearing spread and MUCH cleaner hub design and finishing that GMR did.

But today there are a couple more options to consider Baer and Chicane/Speedtech. I don't really like the Baer kit, it just doesn't look as stout at the GMR setup but it does include the e-brake which is nice. When I look at it I think of a swiss army knife, there are piece/parts everywhere and it may do the job but not as well as other setups.

Now I am REALLY intrigued by the Chicane/Speedtech kit, it's a really good design and I really like the fact that they use some OEM off the shelf components. I would jump all over this if ABS was something that I really wanted to have, but again comparing hardware between GMR and this design I would say GMR is the stronger design.

This is all my opinion, and I haven't actually done any stress analysis on any of the kits nor have I run the GMR stuff yet so I don't know how it will handle the racing environment.

[JasonElvisHeard]

Yeah, I was hoping Jason might chime in here--why did you decide to go with his setup?

I'm here, I have not read though the entire thread but are there any specific questions you would like answered?

Jason

[sik68]

I experience a lot of knockback as well, but this is coming from a guy who has floating calipers. I use C5 calipers with a 7/8 Wilwood MC.

Around Buttonwillow & Thunderhill, and the El Toro track and autocross, I can do a few laps and know reliably which braking zones I will experience knockback; some corners are completely trouble free, and some corners the pedal is undoubtedly soft in the same zone lap after lap..."gotta pump it up for turns 3,5,8...etc"

Deflection is definitely part of the problem; 28 spline axles and the original 8.2" rear aren't what I would call stiff.

But there is also another nagging problem and that's axle play (inboard/outboard motion of the axle). I'm guessing I'm not the only one who has 3/16" of axle freedom, and if you go around a combination of corners where one or both axles moves, there's another source of pads spreading. This became very clear to me in autocross; there is much more severe and abrupt lateral weight transfer and consequentially I must pump the brakes around the whole track to keep the pedal up. Also very prevalent after hitting track curbing on road courses, where you get a lot of impact that can move and deflect the braking system.

I am about to install a 5lb knockback spring under the piston (or maybe a pair under each for 10lbs) to see if it helps.

The residual valve we all know does the same thing. I bought one but haven't installed it yet. I hate messing with brake lines so I want to try the springs first. Running a quick number on residual valves: 10psi residual pressure on a 40mm diameter (C5) piston = 19lbs. So it will be pushing against the piston almost 4x harder than the spring I'm installing.

If you keep the caliper pins lubricated and free from binding, the springs or valve should be able to do their job. I don't know if 5lbs, 10lbs, or 19lbs of force is enough, but I am going to start with 5lbs and work my way up.

I will be sure to post the spring install and results after RTTC.

:cheers: :cheers:

[Vegas69]

Get rid of that 3/16 end play and your problem will be solved. That's way to much slop for any caliper set up. I bet someone has figured out an economical solution. Otherwise you are putting lip stick on a pig.

[sik68]

Get rid of that 3/16 end play and your problem will be solved. That's way to much slop for any caliper set up. I bet someone has figured out an economical solution. Otherwise you are putting lip stick on a pig.

You've seen my car, it's lipstick everywhere on that pig! :lol:

Totally agree though...ultimately I need a new rear but that's a can of worm$ I don't want to open right now. I blame the Investing 102 thread.

[Blake Foster]

From the info "I" can find . this car uses the ZR1 rear hubs and mono block calipers (fixed i will assume)

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/tn_midohio008.jpg

sorry pic is small , 2011 C6R

[Vegas69]

You've seen my car, it's lipstick everywhere on that pig! :lol:

Totally agree though...ultimately I need a new rear but that's a can of worm$ I don't want to open right now. I blame the Investing 102 thread.

Pull those axles and figure out a way to attach a shim to the axle ends. It won't cost you squat and will fix your problem. Send the rest of the money to the Todd Akes "I need another BEER fund" Hendertucky USA.:lol: :cheers:

[LUACE]

Hey Doug, if you are curious about the Baer floater and want to check them out, let me know... I have everything in my garage waiting to get installed.

[James OLC]

I should have the OLC at RTTC3 with the new Bear floater assembly... I hope... The rear end is all together, we just need to get brake lines done and hopefully it will bolt right in...

At least that is the plan...

[ironworks]

I bought a really sweet 14" floater kit 8 months ago and i have had zero knockback issues as the parts are still in the box and i have no time to install them.

Hi Doug better late then never.
Sounds like i need to let you use some floater spray

On your drum brakes

[TheJDMan]

My Moser 9" floater is finished. I blead the brakes over the weekend. Total cost on the complete rear end including housing, hubs, axles, center section and brakes was just short of $2500.

http://hayes-ent.com/steve/images/Camaro130112%20001.JPG

http://hayes-ent.com/steve/images/camaro201201 003med.jpg

[Blake Foster]

What does Mosier use for a parking brake?

[Bad94]

My Moser 9" floater is finished. I blead the brakes over the weekend. Total cost on the complete rear end including housing, hubs, axles, center section and brakes was just short of $2500.

http://hayes-ent.com/steve/images/Camaro130112%20001.JPG



looks great. what rear rotor is that? part number?

whats the WMS to WMS measurment?

Any pics of the caliper bracket?

[JasonElvisHeard]

TheJDMan - Looks good! Props to you for getting another thing checked off the list in your build, I really like your caliper / rotor selection as well. I'm a big fan of the Asymmetrical GT style rotors! Your car is really coming along.

Jason

[MillerBuilt]

I went with THE GMR floater.

[Vegas69]

I went with THE GMR floater. It is undeniably the strongest/lightest COMPLETE kit on the market.

If you truly need a "Floater", this is the ONLY one specifically designed for the harshest of conditions and will take it, and not built around existing marginal parts out of convenience.:yes:

If you are looking to solve all associated problems inherent of the semi-floater design, I recommend THE GMR. JMO

How many miles and races?

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[JasonElvisHeard]

How many miles and races?

Im going to keep this short because I do not want to thread hi-jack but here is one of our clients with well over 60 hard autocross runs and thousands of miles on the GMR setup. :)

http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?81164-NEW-GMR-Pro-Touring-Rear-Floater-Hubs&p=875218#post875218

for any further questions please PM me, I dont want to step on any toes around here. Thanks

Sorry for the hi-jack. Carry on! :thumbsup:

Jason

[Vegas69]

Oh....a anti-GMR guy. Let me answer a question with a question....do you see ANY flaw with this kit whether I tell you I have 100 races or 0?

Yep, when I woke up this morning my goal was to tarnish a company I know nothing about. If you don't understand the reasoning for REAL WORLD TESTING, your opinion isn't worth the internet space it just took up. What is your opinion based on their pal? Your engineering degree at Wal Mart or seat time?

[MillerBuilt]

Always a kid in the crowd that hates.....when I was youger it was a kid that rode a "Huffy", I then sported a Diamondback for it's strength/lightness. He raced at the local BMX track all the time and had a superioriority complex, he finally showed to the track a bunch of us kids had built out in the desert....well to make a long story short..... his bike broke and he never saw anything but the back of our mullets! Go figure....with all that official track experience and all? Hey.... you did'nt happen to ride a Huffy as a kid did you? ;)

[Vegas69]

Im going to keep this short because I do not want to thread hi-jack but here is one of our clients with well over 60 hard autocross runs and thousands of miles on the GMR setup. :)

http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?81164-NEW-GMR-Pro-Touring-Rear-Floater-Hubs&p=875218#post875218

for any further questions please PM me, I dont want to step on any toes around here. Thanks

Sorry for the hi-jack. Carry on! :thumbsup:

Jason

Proof is what I'm looking for, good to hear it's real world experience.

[Vegas69]

Always a kid in the crowd that hates.....when I was youger it was a kid that rode a "Huffy", I then sported a Diamondback for it's strength/lightness. He raced at the local BMX track all the time and had a superioriority complex, he finally showed to the track a bunch of us kids had built out in the desert....well to make a long story short..... his bike broke and he never saw anything but the back of our mullets! Go figure....with all that official track experience and all? Hey.... you did'nt happen to ride a Huffy as a kid did you? ;)

I rode a schwinn with a banana seat and still smoked your ass. :lol:

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[Ron in SoCal]

I went with THE GMR floater. It is undeniably the strongest/lightest COMPLETE kit on the market.

If you truly need a "Floater", this is the ONLY one specifically designed for the harshest of conditions and will take it, and not built around existing marginal parts out of convenience.:yes:

If you are looking to solve all associated problems inherent of the semi-floater design, I recommend THE GMR. JMO

JMO, much respect to Jason for his ingenuity, design and commitment to bring it to market. Seriously. Donnie's a madman - check out his pic of the entire housing being turned down on the lathe - Badride is a committed customer and I admire that as well.

You OTHO make claims above that really need to be substantiated in my mind. I'm not sure it's the 'lightest' on the market, it's not proven the existing options are marginal, and it certainly is not the cheapest...just ask Dust off Steve on that one. BTW, what exactly are the 'inherent problems associated with semi-floater design'??

One of the things buyers in today's market look for is extensive R&D, longevity of the vendor and a proven design that offers advantages over other options. I like Jason (alot) and hope that his product/company is successful and proves to be a market leader, but one thing I'm looking for is a bit more real world testing and will not buy based on your opinions presented as fact. I do hope your assumptions prove to be correct and I'll get in line for one of Jason's kits. :cheers:

[Flash68]

Im going to keep this short because I do not want to thread hi-jack but here is one of our clients with well over 60 hard autocross runs and thousands of miles on the GMR setup. :)

http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?81164-NEW-GMR-Pro-Touring-Rear-Floater-Hubs&p=875218#post875218

for any further questions please PM me, I dont want to step on any toes around here. Thanks

Sorry for the hi-jack. Carry on! :thumbsup:

Jason

Jason, I've also been following your stuff and you seem like a stand up guy and very professional. Best of luck with your products.

That being said, some of your "followers" on here and on PT are not doing you much justice with many of their posts and attitudes. :rolleyes:

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[MillerBuilt]

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[GregWeld]

Opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.... When I read a post by someone I always say to myself.... How many cars has this guy/gal built... How long have they been doing this? What's their real life experience? Something they read on the internet or have they actually done "whatever".

I remember when my kids where taking martial arts classes... the sensi used to tell them - "when you want to know something - should you ask your parents? Your Teacher? Your Grandparents? Or should you ask your buddy that's in the same class you are"?

I'll use Todd as a model -- he was having knock back issues -- he was actually running the crap out of his car -- he was trying various "fixes" -- and testing those fixes... and reporting the results. That's not an opinion - that's real world knowledge. I listened because he was in the fight.

[Vegas69]

For me it's about asking questions that have been formed from experience in hopes that a less experienced member won't buy an inferior part. We've all seen the sales pitch and parts that don't deliver. People around here are getting more knowledgable and demanding parts that are actually tried and true due to these questions. It's a great thing moving forward for the hobby.

I looked at the GMR set up and it looks damn nice. We have multiple options that weren't available a year ago. Time will tell which rises to the top and proves reliable in this venue. I still like the ZR1 hub set up even though it's not a floater.

[MillerBuilt]

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[Ron in SoCal]

JSM...are you Badride? If so, did you move out of Cali? If not, you two would get along great...:lol:

[MillerBuilt]

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[MillerBuilt]

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[Ron in SoCal]

Ron, you kill me! Of all the responding/defending I have done....you have never rubbed me wrong as your comments to me come with respect. As I hope we all know....these words we type sometimes come across in a tone that was not meant....plus I am a little stubborn and believe in what I believe in. I actually harbor ZERO bad feelings toward my critiques and actually hope some day soon (I am working hard at it) I can rub elbows with the "respected" big dog REAL racers of this site....until then I guess I will be viewed as the "Floater Villain". Later Ron! :cheers:

Oh sorry almost forgot....yes am BADDRIDE on PT and have homes in CA and AZ....great I am exposed!

Thanks for the kind words Baddride. Post up some pics of your Nova so guys here know what you're about.

Posts on the net, or in texts for that matter, do not always convey tone or intent as they would when a couple dudes are throwing a couple back and bench racing. As I said before, you are a committed customer (I think, no ownership interest or shilling right?) and that is a good thing. You also have alot of knowledge about Jason's product and floaters in general. I think to avoid a repeat of the thread on PT, show what you know and why you think it's a superior product. Don't get your feathers ruffled if anyone disagrees - parts is parts, right? - and you'll win some over here.

I like you dude. Tell Jason I said hi, and welcome to Lat-G! :cheers:

[MillerBuilt]

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[GregWeld]

Always good and calm advice...you would be great in hostage situations...if or when I disappear from angering the wrong guy with all my floater talk...I would want you on the bull horn Ron :D

And no, unfortunately no ownership interest. As you know in the past I have joked about a job at GMR....but if that where to ever happen I guess I would have to heavily work on my people skills as I am not very popular with some (never my intention). I think I will turn a new leaf today (thanks Ron and all the small people that made it possible :D ) and play better with others. So come on and give me another chance:_party:


I think you misread my post about experience rather than opinions.... Read it again with a little less bias on your part and see if you don't come away with a different 'opinion'.

You'll find LAT G quite different than Pro Touring - discussions are civil - informed - and usually come from experience rather than just "my opinion 'cause I read somewhere in the internet". This is no place for flamers - they get run out of here in one day - or one post. I've read 1000's of posts on here and 99.9% are just great general discussions without "tones" or "flames" or anything like that.


:lateral: :cheers:

[Vegas69]

I am kinda gun shy to talk with you, but I have to ask. Why did you say that the ZR1 set-up is NOT a floater?

It's a fixed sealed bearing hub that is bolted to the axle housing. The axle is affixed with a nut. It's not really a floating axle like a conventional floater.

We are a great group of guys, we just don't take any crap. :thumbsup: You shoudl come out to the pro touring events. They are a blast.

[Blake Foster]

It's a fixed sealed bearing hub that is bolted to the axle housing. The axle is affixed with a nut. It's not really a floating axle like a conventional floater.

We are a great group of guys, we just don't take any crap. :thumbsup: You shoudl come out to the pro touring events. They are a blast.

Todd you are correct in your statement about the ZR1 hub, the axle IS bolted to the hub cap,it is not the same set up as a factory Corvette which uses the large 32mm nut. It is simply a socket head cap screw to help more with the install of the axle. a normal floater uses a cap to retain the axle basically the same principal. The Speedtech/Chicane set up also uses in inner axle seal so the tubes are Dry, no gear oil in the axle tubes. makes things alot cleaner when servicing. also the Hub is a sealed unit as you would know so no maintaince required there either.
So it really is Technically not a floating avle BUT due to the fact that the Wheel Mounting Surface does not move with the axle and is fixed there is no caliper knock back issues.

[ccracin]

The Speedtech/Chicane set up also uses in inner axle seal so the tubes are Dry, no gear oil in the axle tubes. makes things alot cleaner when servicing.

Blake,

Be very cautious with the axle tube seals. We lost a 3rd member in the race car using these. We tried several brands of seal and even a couple different types of axles. All sized properly, but in the end all they ended up doing was trapping the lube in the tube once it got past the seal and didn't allow it to get back into the sump. I had multiple conversations with people and found a lot of similar feed back. Obviously since my application was circle track the right axle tube was the culprit. I'm not sure you will see this in the Pro-Touring/Track Day venue, but it is worth looking into. I would hate to see you deal with come backs over burned up gear sets! In the end we just ran a slightly higher oil level in the rear and made sure we had good o-rings on the hub seals. Never had an issue after that. (Obviously this was a standard design floater) All in all it was about a $2K lesson between broken parts and test pieces trying to solve the problem. Hope this helps some. :cheers:

[Blake Foster]

good feed back. this is not something i had heard of. but i have to now check with Speedway Engineering on this. i would think that Kenny know if the NASCAR guys are having problems or not. he told me yesterday they had something like 40 rear ends to build for Daytona :willy: :willy:

i will call and post up the response. it is an easy thing to delete if it may cause a problem.

stay tuned

[MillerBuilt]

It's a fixed sealed bearing hub that is bolted to the axle housing. The axle is affixed with a nut. It's not really a floating axle like a conventional floater.

We are a great group of guys, we just don't take any crap. :thumbsup: You shoudl come out to the pro touring events. They are a blast.

Sounds good, and I will be the first to respect that since I am the same way. I will be out and about soon, thanks for the kind invite and look forward to meeting you personally as we may be more alike then we would probably admit currently. Oh, and sorry about the banana seat comment!:thumbsup:

[ccracin]

good feed back. this is not something i had heard of. but i have to now check with Speedway Engineering on this. i would think that Kenny know if the NASCAR guys are having problems or not. he told me yesterday they had something like 40 rear ends to build for Daytona :willy: :willy:

i will call and post up the response. it is an easy thing to delete if it may cause a problem.

stay tuned

They should certainly be able to help. We tried seals from Allstar (Motorstate), Afco, and Speedway. We also tried standard floater axles as well as GN axles. We also tried GN Seals with standard axles thinking they would be tighter, but couldn't put it together. Obviously gun drilled won't work :lol: . I'll be anxious to hear your feedback. It would definitely be the way to go if you can be successful! :cheers:

[MillerBuilt]

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[Blake Foster]

Spoke to Speedway they Normally do run a inner axle seal including snap rings on both sides of the seal on all the NASCAR housings. That being said he has not seen any failures since 1993 when they changed to a different type of diaphram seal. BUT did say that is would be possible if the housing was bent or "rubbed" as the seal is quite delicate and also can be damaged during assembly if the axles being used do not have a large enough taper on them. that is the official answer.
Also the housing has axle seals at the housing ends. so the inner would not be required.

[MillerBuilt]

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[68protouring454]

when I road race, i always re pack the bearings and clean the tubes after each race weekend, which is 4 -30 min sessions for practice and qual, and 2 35-45 min races. I always have some oil in the the tubes(with inner seals,which we silicon as well). Never had any bearing issues etc, we also ran our fluid level high but found it to get by the seals and start to wash the bearings out, in sprint races (under an hr) generally with a rear end cooler, you can keep 2.5-4 qts plenty cool.
A floater will absolutely stop knock back, HOWEVER, the rear end has to be straight, we do all our welding with a jig(and a certain procedure) and still get run out to .200-.300 thou, we then heat and squelch till we have under .008. Now once you have a straight housing, now you space your caliper correct and you will have NO knock back.
Most of the time complaints on caliper knock back with a full floater is, either axle run out, or a caliper not spaced properly on rotor.
Now when you get into hard track day, time trial etc use you will now get the rotors so hot the heat gets into the calipers and boils or starts to boil the fluid, which will give you a spongy knock back feeling pedal, now add cooling.
It all adds up to going fast, generally on a protouring car with a d.o.t tire you wont get the brakes hot enough to do this unless you have really cheap brake fluid or race compound pads.
we use gun drilled axles

the zr-1 set up looks nice.

[Ron in SoCal]

^ Tech we can use. Thx for adding to the discussion Jake. Can you comment on the brand/design you're using, how many splines on the axles and if you see any difference in side loads in a floater set up for AutoX vs Roadrace (besides the hotter fluid mentioned above)?

I'm digging everyone's input here. As Todd said, floaters in the PT world are really in it's infancy. I bet there's alot more to be learned from real world use.

[Blake Foster]

Interesting point on the gun drilled axles. Chicayne also offered a gun drilling option on PT for this setup. Blake, does the retaining bolt you speak of seal out fluid for the gun drilled axles or some sort of sealed cap to retain fluids?

we have not discussed the gun drilling much as of yet, the avle would have to be drilled short ( so the retaining bolt has material ) so that would have to be a blind hole.
the cap on the hub end IS sealed.

there was a comment about camber / toe settings being an option, there have been talks about that as an option and Chicane and SKF are running some numbers to see if a ball end axle can be used to any extended service life. More on this as we get more information.

[ccracin]

I think Jake is on to something with the run out. In fact that is something I have been concerned with on here for years. I see people buy axle housings and then weld brackets to them. Guaranteed they are running out excessively afterword unless they follow a procedure similar to the one Jake mentioned. That's another topic all together. The way I can see this working and what you mention Blake about Speedway using snap rings helps substantiate my theory. If when the housing is being constructed, you machined a seat for the seal on the inside of the tube that was concentric with the carrier bearings and hub bearings than you could ensure a good fit. When we were using them, they were sold as lip seals to press in the end of the 3" axle tube with no machining. The tubing is typically DOM, but I'm not sure what the mfg. tolerances are with regard to wall thickness and ID/OD concentricity. In any case, I think runout was definitely an issue. All of our housings were jig built and straightened, but maybe not close enough. It sounds like Speedway is machining the ID on the NASCAR stuff since they are using snap rings. The amount of compliance in the seal will help a lot too. You'll get it handled Blake. Good luck with the product! :cheers:

[Blake Foster]

ordering one tomorrow for my Nova to have in for RTTC. and let the beating begin. :thumbsup:

[TheJDMan]

What does Mosier use for a parking brake?

PARKING BRAKE? I don't need no stinking parking brake!

But seriously, I have two options in mind. 1. Is to use a pinion mount park brake from Speedway Motors for $299. 2. Wilwood makes a puck style mechanical spot caliper which (just so happens) is the same caliper that is used for option 1. but I would mount a pair of them on the rear rotors at about the 3 o-clock position. I would just need to fabricate mounts for them, then Inline Tube can make custom cables which would connect to the factory PB cable system.

I suspect as floating hubs gain acceptance in the PT world manufactures will step up and provide the pieces I had to fabricate. Time will tell.

[TheJDMan]

looks great. what rear rotor is that? part number?

whats the WMS to WMS measurment?

Any pics of the caliper bracket?

The rotors are Wilwood 160-8508 and 160-8509 GT series which are 13"dia x 1.1" thick with a 12on7" bolt circle. I did not want drilled rotors.

My 9" was ordered from Moser with 57" WMS to WMS. My rear Forgelines are 18x12 with a 5.5" bs.

BTW, if anyone is curious, I purchased a freshly rebuilt surplus NASCAR center section from Roush Fenway racing in a 3.64 ratio with polished ring and pinion for $850. One thing about this center section is that it is setup with -8AN fittings if I decide to install a rear end cooler at a later date.

[GregWeld]

Just thinking out loud here -- but wouldn't "what works in NASCAR" come with some caveats? --- as in --- don't you think they rework and inspect just about every aspect of these cars after every race? So while the seals might be "fine" for NASCAR -- 500 miles isn't that big of a deal if they're being replaced all the time...

I don't know if they do that - but just saying that what might work on a NASCAR might not be so "user friendly" for our PT cars.

[DFRESH]

Thank you to all of those who have posted thus far to this thread.

As the original poster, I should clarify a few things about what I was/am after. Understanding that knockback is a real issue that several folks I know have and are personally dealing with, I want to know if they had to do it over again, would they have choosen to go with a floater setup--this begs the question, which one and why.

Now, I do value opinions, and I should also say that I tend to place greater value on that individual's opinion that has actually used the product in the manner that I am going to use it and can provide me actual feedback, specifically that it works and has worked for XXXX amount of time. Some of you have outstanding technical and scientific abilities in which you can compute load on the face of a bearing and have it expressed as a percentage, build a 1.21 jigawatt flux capaciter, etc., which I know is also valuable information and makes appropriate points to lend solid credability to the various products out there. Those points are well made and actually help me feel better about making a purchase of those specific products as well. I don't have those same talents in every area and rely on this site and you industrial mega minds to help fill me in. (No comments about my personal abilities from the peanut gallery are necessary on this point.)

In the end, for me, I want to know the part works ---and works for my intended application, which in my case is lots of street miles (trips of 400 to 600 miles at a time), track days, auto crossing (peanut and large tracks). Additionally, do I have to give up the center caps on my wheels? This may not seem like a big deal to some, but to me, I would be bummed out to have to give up those up. Small thing I know, but it's an individual thing.

This is why I value and have valued the opinions of guys like Todd, Dave, Chad, Payton, James, and others like them that can and will chime in. They are out at the tracks, have hit the streets and have used their cars, generally speaking in a similar fashion. I would hate to purchase one, find out they make some crazy noise at crusing RPM's, or require maintence every 5k, etc. It's my comfort level in assessing the next purchase--kinda like investing 401, after you have excess income, what is the best approach to take when wasting it on a car---my response, careful and thoughtful wasting by asking others who have wasted it before me if it was worth it.

Thanks again to all who have posted as I believe it will help others considering this same purchase as well. It appears we are well represented on this topic. I would hope that one of the mags would cover this topic in depth with some real world testing (Rupp, job opportunity--you can quit building motors and switch to floaters----GMR, Baer, Speedtech, Speedway--put them all on BP this year and give us feedback--there's got to be a story in that).

Doug BW Fresh

[DFRESH]

when I road race, i always re pack the bearings and clean the tubes after each race weekend, which is 4 -30 min sessions for practice and qual, and 2 35-45 min races. I always have some oil in the the tubes(with inner seals,which we silicon as well). Never had any bearing issues etc, we also ran our fluid level high but found it to get by the seals and start to wash the bearings out, in sprint races (under an hr) generally with a rear end cooler, you can keep 2.5-4 qts plenty cool.
A floater will absolutely stop knock back, HOWEVER, the rear end has to be straight, we do all our welding with a jig(and a certain procedure) and still get run out to .200-.300 thou, we then heat and squelch till we have under .008. Now once you have a straight housing, now you space your caliper correct and you will have NO knock back.
Most of the time complaints on caliper knock back with a full floater is, either axle run out, or a caliper not spaced properly on rotor.
Now when you get into hard track day, time trial etc use you will now get the rotors so hot the heat gets into the calipers and boils or starts to boil the fluid, which will give you a spongy knock back feeling pedal, now add cooling.
It all adds up to going fast, generally on a protouring car with a d.o.t tire you wont get the brakes hot enough to do this unless you have really cheap brake fluid or race compound pads.
we use gun drilled axles

the zr-1 set up looks nice.

Excellent--thanks Jake--that is great to know. There are more factors to consider that I had not heard about until you mentioned them here in your response.

D

[Cris@JCG]

One more thing I will throw in their Jake.. Caliper mounting brackets.. Speedway welds a gusset plate on the floater they build for Winston Cup.. If the mount is not fully supported & flexes.. it can make you feel something on the brake pedal..

when I road race, i always re pack the bearings and clean the tubes after each race weekend, which is 4 -30 min sessions for practice and qual, and 2 35-45 min races. I always have some oil in the the tubes(with inner seals,which we silicon as well). Never had any bearing issues etc, we also ran our fluid level high but found it to get by the seals and start to wash the bearings out, in sprint races (under an hr) generally with a rear end cooler, you can keep 2.5-4 qts plenty cool.
A floater will absolutely stop knock back, HOWEVER, the rear end has to be straight, we do all our welding with a jig(and a certain procedure) and still get run out to .200-.300 thou, we then heat and squelch till we have under .008. Now once you have a straight housing, now you space your caliper correct and you will have NO knock back.
Most of the time complaints on caliper knock back with a full floater is, either axle run out, or a caliper not spaced properly on rotor.
Now when you get into hard track day, time trial etc use you will now get the rotors so hot the heat gets into the calipers and boils or starts to boil the fluid, which will give you a spongy knock back feeling pedal, now add cooling.
It all adds up to going fast, generally on a protouring car with a d.o.t tire you wont get the brakes hot enough to do this unless you have really cheap brake fluid or race compound pads.
we use gun drilled axles

the zr-1 set up looks nice.

[Vegas69]

Just thinking out loud here -- but wouldn't "what works in NASCAR" come with some caveats? --- as in --- don't you think they rework and inspect just about every aspect of these cars after every race? So while the seals might be "fine" for NASCAR -- 500 miles isn't that big of a deal if they're being replaced all the time...

I don't know if they do that - but just saying that what might work on a NASCAR might not be so "user friendly" for our PT cars.

Exactly what I was thinking. They rebuild those cars after every race. And for somebody to say that they have NEVER had a problem, is a LIE. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that line calling misc. vendors. An axle seal out towards the flange is the safest alternative.

[Vegas69]

Sounds good, and I will be the first to respect that since I am the same way. I will be out and about soon, thanks for the kind invite and look forward to meeting you personally as we may be more alike then we would probably admit currently. Oh, and sorry about the banana seat comment!:thumbsup:

I've got more respect for you saying what you think than being one of the herd. :thumbsup: RTTC is a must. Great racing, party, and group of liars. :D

[ccracin]

Exactly what I was thinking. They rebuild those cars after every race. And for somebody to say that they have NEVER had a problem, is a LIE. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that line calling misc. vendors. An axle seal out towards the flange is the safest alternative.

Even when I was just doing local short track stuff, we checked and packed the bearings on all four corners every couple weeks. With the sustained high g left turns, I would see a slight bit of wash in the floater hub bearings. I never had an external leak as long as I kept the o-ring seals in proper shape. I don't think you would have the bearing wash from rear end lube with normal street driving. When tracking or autocrossing, I consider that racing and therefore you should maintain the car as such. Ie. checking all the bearings, replacing and resetting pre-load. This will also help with knock-back. I agree with you on the " we have never seen that" comment. We agree also on the outer axle seal. At this point I will not run inner seals anymore. The other point I wanted to throw out is that floaters were not developed for racing. They were adapted. Originally they were supplied on heavy duty trucks. As racers always do, they saw the benefits these types of axles had and over the years developed them for racing. I'm sure most of you knew that, but for the folks reading that may not be involved in this conversation I just thought I would throw it out there.

Doug,

Thanks for the mention in your response. I am glad you started this thread, because it has brought out a lot of tech that I will certainly also use in making future decisions. Heck I'm already rethinking what we have for the current project. :lol: I really need to stop that. We need to finish this thing and quit changing stuff! :cheers:

[Blake Foster]

One more thing I will throw in their Jake.. Caliper mounting brackets.. Speedway welds a gusset plate on the floater they build for Winston Cup.. If the mount is not fully supported & flexes.. it can make you feel something on the brake pedal..

the Caliper brackets are billet aluminum and bolt to the housing end as all Bare or Wilwood brake kits do.

[Blake Foster]

Exactly what I was thinking. They rebuild those cars after every race. And for somebody to say that they have NEVER had a problem, is a LIE. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that line calling misc. vendors. An axle seal out towards the flange is the safest alternative.

I hate to come out and call anyone a liar, the fact that Speedway has been building these housings for some of the biggest NASCAR teams for over 20 year (and possibly longer that is the number i was told) and continue to do so would lead me to think that they have a product that is working. In the early days of running inner seals they had some issues apparently with oil moving past the seal, but like I said "since about 93-94 when they switched to a different seal design they have had no "issues" I will add "that they mentioned" and this was from the owner.

The housing DOES ALSO have a seal at the out board end of the tube and in discussions yesterday We have decided to make the inner seal an OPTION not a standard issue as they will require more "Checking" of the unit.

All these Opinoins and comments are good to make the product that much better.

[Blake Foster]

Just thinking out loud here -- but wouldn't "what works in NASCAR" come with some caveats? --- as in --- don't you think they rework and inspect just about every aspect of these cars after every race? So while the seals might be "fine" for NASCAR -- 500 miles isn't that big of a deal if they're being replaced all the time...

I don't know if they do that - but just saying that what might work on a NASCAR might not be so "user friendly" for our PT cars.

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.
and this is where some of the thought process has come from to use the ZR1 sealed hub... no maintance

[JasonElvisHeard]

The subject of Nascar in relation to products and parts being used is a little bit of a slippery slope. You will never see GMR components on any NASCAR chassis any time soon and possibly never. Believe me I have tried, the issue is more political then it is component biased. I really would love to see items stacked against each other side by side and let the teams decide but that is not the case. When it comes to Nascar is comes down to who is paying the most to have their products on the cars. I simply cant play that game, we are not large enough and that mentality does not sit well with my philosophy. I have personally seen failures in Nascar many times, its racing. This does not mean the parts are poor quality, it simply means that when you push the limits sometimes the limits push back. I have nothing but the up-most respect for the larger companies that I "compete" against. I would not be in this sport if it wasn't for these guys in the first place, the true originators who pushed the sport to progress well before my time. I feel as though our product line fits in a slightly different class then most, bottom line is Im making products with zero consideration to "how" I can make this cheaper, easier, or sell more of "X" unit. GMR will never reach the volume of the larger outfits, that is not my goal.

Now with that said I would like to address a point that seems to be brought up more often then not.

The issue of maintenance. I would love to tell you that our products are 100% maintenance free but then I would be lying. They are however, the easiest and lease maintenance when it comes to the floater market. I currently have guys that drive to autocross events, "bring - it" in several events, then drive home sometimes a few hundred miles each way. Here is one little reason why-

http://thegmr.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/DSC034236-222x300.jpg

"The other often over looked element is the use of a precision machined crush sleeve. As you can see in the picture above there is a dark section of material between the bearings. This is a precision machined Chromoly sleeve that holds the bearing separation perfectly in line with the outer bearing races in the hub. This achieves three major things.

One – This sleeve locates the bearings in the optimal position for extended life, no more over tight bearings that fail prematurely.

Two – Allows for you to torque the snout nut up to 100 ft-lb (recommend 65 ft-lb) of torque, you will never crush the sleeve or the inner bearing race. They are simply too strong…

Three – Provides the ultimate in bearing strength, creates a solid structure on the snout that will provide more lateral strength because it locks the bearings perfectly in place." (thegmr.com)

[GregWeld]

I don't know anything about what you guys are talking about -- but it sure is interesting! Personally -- I love stuff like this and it's what makes LAT-G so rich. Rich, as in fulfilling - not money.

:cheers: :woot:

[Flash68]

I don't know anything about what you guys are talking about -- but it sure is interesting! Personally -- I love stuff like this and it's what makes LAT-G so rich. Rich, as in fulfilling - not money.

:cheers: :woot:

Ha, Greg, those are my thoughts exactly. This thread is one of my favorites in awhile and I am trying to "hang on by a thread" with all of this tech.

[Ron in SoCal]

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.
and this is where some of the thought process has come from to use the ZR1 sealed hub... no maintance

Hey Blake - understand the why of the SKF hub and like it. But...on the fronts they do require replacement after a certain amount of track time. Do you think the rear wear and tear would be about the same MTBF?

[Sieg]

Anyone know what the Australian Supercars Ford rear ends are using? They might be a better comparison to PT applications than NASCAR. They definitely get abused and turn left and right. :D

Note - It looks like they may be switching to IRS in 2013.

[Blake Foster]

[QUOTE=Ron in SoCal;391944]Hey Blake - understand the why of the SKF hub and like it. But...on the fronts they do require replacement after a certain amount of track time. Do you think the rear wear and tear would be about the same MTBF?[/QUOTE

From what i understand???? which isn't much sometimes lol the SKF ZR1 hub was designed for the ZR1 and for racing. it is much heavier duty than the C6 Z06 hub. the Z06 hub is the same as the standard C6 and that is what we use on the AFX Spindles ( it is what EVERYONE uses that supplies Corvette spindles on their suspension packages)

people keep talking about having to replace the hubs but we have never had anyone call asking or questioning or complaining about worn hubs??? yet


My nova has some hard miles on it with no issues as of yet. i think if a guy was going to the extent of a floater rear he would also upgrade to the ZR1 hubs in the front if he has AFX or Corvette spindles. they are in the 400.oo each range. the SKF Racing Hub is just a ZR1 factory hub no differance there.

[TheJDMan]

Just to expand on something "ccracin" touched on. Floating axles are not new and in fact are run 100s of MILLIONS of hiway miles every year. Every truck you see 3/4ton and up is equipped with floaters. Every class 8 semi-truck you see running down the hiway is equipped with floaters and most are equipped with aluminum hubs. There is no magic about the floating axle design, it is no different than a two bearing front spindle on say an older 4x4 jeep or pickup. The current generation of 4x4 and front wheel drive cars/trucks is another example of a floating axle design with sealed bearings. There is a reason that circle track racers and off road racers adopted the floating axle design to their application. Simply stated, floaters are stronger than bearing on axle rear ends. Why you ask do manufacturers still provide bearing on axle rear ends? The answer is simple, cost. The bottom line is, regardless of the manufacturer, the floating axle design is far superior to bearing on axle designs.

[68protouring454]

I have run the same parts store c6 hubs for 2 years racing wheel to wheel, we check them but have not had to replace them.
In fact vinnys red car (my old shop car) has the same bearings in it that it had a motorstate in 09

[Vegas69]

I've got 6500 street miles and 20 races or better on mine. Still nice and tight. They are engineered for a corvette after all. :D

Here's a good question. What's on the C6R?

[Ron in SoCal]

I have run the same parts store c6 hubs for 2 years racing wheel to wheel, we check them but have not had to replace them.
In fact vinnys red car (my old shop car) has the same bearings in it that it had a motorstate in 09

Thanks Jake. The Corvette guys quickly found the stock c6 hubs wore out after one season. If the SKF/ZR1 hubs last a long time than that's good news for Blake's product...:thumbsup:

Edit: The Vette 'may' pull a few more Gs than we do, or submit them to more hours which could cause explain a shorter life span.

[Vegas69]

Good point Ron. Let's keep in mind that this is a pro touring website. 99.9% of us aren't putting Z06 Corvette with road racing slicks load on thes cars, EVER. On top of that, we aren't putting daily driver miles on them either. ZR1 hubs should last the cars lifetime. Regular hubs may as well. Jake or I will let you guys know. :D I'd be interested to hear DSE or Finch on this subject. Rttc here we come.

[Blake Foster]

I will have this new Floater set up in ResurreXion for RTTC and i will also have one on display, if any one is interested i can probably get a couple more done by then and deliver them as well.

[GregWeld]

I will have this new Floater set up in ResurreXion for RTTC and i will also have one on display, if any one is interested i can probably get a couple more done by then and deliver them as well.


Will you come down and help me put the new rear end in Rudys Camaro? :willy: :lol:

I just tore out all of his old leaf springs and ladder bars and converting him to coil overs and a new Ford 9" with all new ladder bars etc. It's heavy and I could use your head for holding it up in there while I weld up a couple things.

It's not a floater... and it's Pro STREET not Pro touring...



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Rudys%20Camaro/photo.jpg

[Sieg]

Which new floater, chicanes?

[Blake Foster]

Will you come down and help me put the new rear end in Rudys Camaro? :willy: :lol:

I just tore out all of his old leaf springs and ladder bars and converting him to coil overs and a new Ford 9" with all new ladder bars etc. It's heavy and I could use your head for holding it up in there while I weld up a couple things.

It's not a floater... and it's Pro STREET not Pro touring...



http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/ad33/gregweld/Rudys%20Camaro/photo.jpg

i can do this............ but will need some help on the new kitchen cabinets when we are done. lol

[Blake Foster]

Which new floater, chicanes?

WEll lets call it the Speedtech Chicane 9" floater.............. how about that. from now on. :_paranoid

[Sieg]

WEll lets call it the Speedtech Chicane 9" floater.............. how about that. from now on. :_paranoid

I LIKE it! :thumbsup:

[Blake Foster]

Figure it's time to post up some pictures of this unit.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/SpeedtechperformanceChicanefloaterhousingend.jpg

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/SpeedtechPerformanceChicaneFloaterhubandAxle.jpg

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/SpeedtechPerformanceFloaterhousingweld.jpg

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/SpeedtechPerformanceChicaneFloaterbrake.jpg

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/SpeedtechPerformanceFloaterhousing.jpg

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72
nova/SpeedtechPerformanceSpeedwayHousing.jpg

[Sieg]

Figure it's time to post up some pictures of this unit.
You're officially in the hardcore porn industry. :thumbsup:

[Blake Foster]

one more

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/SpeedtechPerformanceSpeedwayHousing.jpg


I said it was nice didn't I ???

[68protouring454]

that is two seasons, one on 315 front/335 rear hoosier r1, and last year with yokohama a006 slick

[KPC67]

Blake,
does your set up add much width to the rear over a new style torino end? I would only have roughly 1.5" to go before I hit my quad link brackets.

[Blake Foster]

The OAW from the welded area on the housing end that you can see in the picture above to the hub face is 3.28" so actually less than a standard big ford end with 2.5" offset.

[Blake Foster]

Currently we are ready to start production, I have a few being built now for customers as well as one that will be in ResurreXion (my Nova) for RTTC, I will also have a display unit at RTTC.
There are some limits to the ordering of these rearends,
1. NO you can not oreder the parts seperately and install them your self. The housing alignment is to critical.
2. NO you can not retrofit the ends to your existing housing, feel free to sell that one.
3. NO you can not order the housing with out suspension brackets and weld them on yourself. again housing alignment is critical.
4.YES you can get "NEW" suspension brackets from the company who's suspension you are running, supply all the dimensions required to attach them and for an additional labour fee of 65.00 per hour they can be installed.
5. The housings are available with out a 3rd member in 31 spline. 35 spline is an option CALL if that is what your interested in.
6. YES you can run any Corvette rear brake kit.
7. Yes there are options for different widths
8. YES We can also supply Very high quality all American made Center sections to complete the packace. ( Trutrack and Aluminum case upgrades if desired.)
9. YES there will be provisions for fluid circulation and cooling if requested.
10. YES for an additional charge you can request ARP wheel studs in 12mm or 1/2
This Floater will ONLY be available for 9" ford rear ends, NO others sorry

Camber and Toe adjustability and or preset is NOT an option at this time, we are working on getting more information on the possibility of being able to do this in the future, I know Chicane has been working on this and can probably give an update soon.

If anyone is interested call me directly, I can even deliver no charge to RTTC if you place an order in the next couple of days. sorry about the short notice.
Blake

[Vegas69]

Daaaaayuuuum that is nice.

[Chicken Louie]

So how much lighter is a guys wallet going to be? I know it all depends on the options, but do you have any ballpark numbers?

[Blake Foster]

Candle Stick Park or Yankee Stadium????


With a third member approx 4200.00 just paint it and bolt it in.

[Sieg]

Candle Stick Park or Yankee Stadium????


With a third member approx 4200.00 just paint it and bolt it in.
Todd that's only $3200 more than those LED headlights! Knock-knock......so much for your car being completed. :D

[Blake Foster]

like the post above says if you have a current 9" 3rd member it will fit. and you can reduce the price by 1500.00

[Ron in SoCal]

Currently we are ready to start production, I have a few being built now for customers as well as one that will be in ResurreXion (my Nova) for RTTC, I will also have a display unit at RTTC.
There are some limits to the ordering of these rearends,
1. NO you can not oreder the parts seperately and install them your self. The housing alignment is to critical.
2. NO you can not retrofit the ends to your existing housing, feel free to sell that one.
3. NO you can not order the housing with out suspension brackets and weld them on yourself. again housing alignment is critical.
4.YES you can get "NEW" suspension brackets from the company who's suspension you are running, supply all the dimensions required to attach them and for an additional labour fee of 65.00 per hour they can be installed.
5. The housings are available with out a 3rd member in 31 spline. 35 spline is an option CALL if that is what your interested in.
6. YES you can run any Corvette rear brake kit.
7. Yes there are options for different widths
8. YES We can also supply Very high quality all American made Center sections to complete the packace. ( Trutrack and Aluminum case upgrades if desired.)
9. YES there will be provisions for fluid circulation and cooling if requested.
10. YES for an additional charge you can request ARP wheel studs in 12mm or 1/2
This Floater will ONLY be available for 9" ford rear ends, NO others sorry

Camber and Toe adjustability and or preset is NOT an option at this time, we are working on getting more information on the possibility of being able to do this in the future, I know Chicane has been working on this and can probably give an update soon.

If anyone is interested call me directly, I can even deliver no charge to RTTC if you place an order in the next couple of days. sorry about the short notice.
Blake

Blake I get why you're limiting the floater to a complete kit, it just strikes me that you maybe limiting your potential customer base (all the guys drooling in this thread - including me - who already have complete rear ends) by only offering it this way. What are your thoughts on a speedtech 'certified' installer program? There's lots of guys out there like Speedway, Currie and others that certainly have the jigs and skills to ensure proper alignment. Just a thought...:yes:

[Blake Foster]

Blake I get why you're limiting the floater to a complete kit, it just strikes me that you maybe limiting your potential customer base (all the guys drooling in this thread - including me - who already have complete rear ends) by only offering it this way. What are your thoughts on a speedtech 'certified' installer program? There's lots of guys out there like Speedway, Currie and others that certainly have the jigs and skills to ensure proper alignment. Just a thought...:yes:

I do understand your point, but here is part of the issue. think of it from the vendors stand point. Here is a high end part that is ment to do a high end job. If we were to sell all the parts needed to do an install and the shop,/ guy who did the istall didn't do it correctly then what happens to the reputation of the product........... we all know that the guy who bought it as a kit will not "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth" and then it is a fault with the product. Also if you think about it the only EXTRA part you would be purchasing is the Housing. I don't have the exact cost of just the housing but we might be talking about 700-900 on the high side. Consider if you were to send your housing to have the ends installed, first you have strip it to bare metal $$$ ship it $$$ then they check it for straightness, what if the seals don't fit your tubes?? what if after the ends are cut off the tubes are to short??? now the housing is cut and cleaned and shipped and won't work. now you need to buy a housing and brackets anyway.
So to just eliminate all that not to mention the screwup factor, and not many guys like welding gear oil soaked housings.
If you are in the market for a rear end of this caliber then I feel 700-900 is not going to be the end of the deal.

Sometimes you just have to make the call. We try to accomadate as many people as possible but can't make everyone happy. We still have the option for non floating rear ends as well.
:cheers:

[DFRESH]

I've had a lot of conversations these past two weeks on this topic. Thanks to Payton for giving up watching the X-Games to chat with me late into the night, and for all of you who have posted! In the end, it was Todd's post where he said "Dayummmm---that is nice" that did it for me. I just want his acceptence.

After much debating and searching, I have ended up with the new Speedtech Chicane 9" --accompanied by their torque arm setup.

It was the free shipping to RTTC in March---you know me.

Blake, thank you very much!! Fed Ex going out tomorrow to you--


Doug

[fleetus macmullitz]

In the end, it was Todd's post where he said "Dayummmm---that is nice" that did it for me. I just want his acceptance.



Being honest about your feelings is the first step to recovery Dub. :thumbsup:

6ldAQ6Rh5ZI&feature

[Sieg]

I've had a lot of conversations these past two weeks on this topic. Thanks to Payton for giving up watching the X-Games to chat with me late into the night, and for all of you who have posted! In the end, it was Todd's post where he said "Dayummmm---that is nice" that did it for me. I just want his acceptence.

After much debating and searching, I have ended up with the new Speedtech Chicane 9" --accompanied by their torque arm setup.

It was the free shipping to RTTC in March---you know me.

Blake, thank you very much!! Fed Ex going out tomorrow to you--


Doug

Good for you Doug! Blake and Speedtech are a real asset to Lat-G and work hard to earn the business, like numerous other Lat-G supporting vendors. Lat-G is a great example of the potential value forums posess for members and supporting vendors. :thumbsup: :lateral:

Vendors - Your support is Appreciated!

[Roadbuster]

I've had a lot of conversations these past two weeks on this topic. Thanks to Payton for giving up watching the X-Games to chat with me late into the night, and for all of you who have posted! In the end, it was Todd's post where he said "Dayummmm---that is nice" that did it for me. I just want his acceptence.

After much debating and searching, I have ended up with the new Speedtech Chicane 9" --accompanied by their torque arm setup.

It was the free shipping to RTTC in March---you know me.

Blake, thank you very much!! Fed Ex going out tomorrow to you--


Doug

Sounds like you got a neat setup with this one!

[KPC67]

Blake I get why you're limiting the floater to a complete kit, it just strikes me that you maybe limiting your potential customer base (all the guys drooling in this thread - including me - who already have complete rear ends) by only offering it this way. What are your thoughts on a speedtech 'certified' installer program? There's lots of guys out there like Speedway, Currie and others that certainly have the jigs and skills to ensure proper alignment. Just a thought...:yes:

I have to agree with Ron here, I would be jumping all over this if I could retro fit it to the 9" I just purchased from DSE. I am not in the position to buy a whole new housing, and I doubt mine would sell due to the custom width I ordered it in.
That being said it is a nice piece.

[Vegas69]

About time you were the guinea pig buddy. :unibrow: You are making some great decisions. :thumbsup:

[skatinjay27]

knowing doug im sure he worked in the "free t-shirts for the whole family or no deal" haha :lol:

[Flash68]

Doug E. Fresh.... the man who spends umpteen thousands of dollars on bad ass bulletproof parts to put behind, under and in front of.... his 220 horsepower motor with a flex fan and no tach. :thumbsup:

In the end, it was Todd's post where he said "Dayummmm---that is nice" that did it for me. I just want his acceptence.


Doug

We all do, Doug..... we all do. :willy:

[Bad94]

I have to agree with Ron here, I would be jumping all over this if I could retro fit it to the 9" I just purchased from DSE. I am not in the position to buy a whole new housing, and I doubt mine would sell due to the custom width I ordered it in.
That being said it is a nice piece.


I pmed blake, about the same thing.

I would buy a kit right now if i could, I dont need or want a new housing, Im not going to spend $4000 plus on a rear end again.

I have all the rear end narrowing stuff, i have done them before.


Not selling this as a kit is going to be the only problem. Other then that, looks killer and a super cool set up.

[DFRESH]

knowing doug im sure he worked in the "free t-shirts for the whole family or no deal" haha :lol:

Oops, yeah--that's right---I forgot to mention that the front subframe came with it also--but I had to pay for the T-shirt----Blake is a tough businessman.

[DFRESH]

Doug E. Fresh.... the man who spends umpteen thousands of dollars on bad ass bulletproof parts to put behind, under and in front of.... his 220 horsepower motor with a flex fan and no tach. :thumbsup:



We all do, Doug..... we all do. :willy:

Dude, I told you, I added the 1.6 rockers to the motor---picked up 3 RWHP--the cam has a total lift of 420 now--when you pull the valve covers and the motor is running, you can actually see the rocker move occasionally---wait till you here it now--it doesn't even sound like the same car-It now has to idle at 300 rpm to get rid of the heavy chop and to have some vacume for the brakes. I have to put it in neutral at every stop light now.

Ironworks now makes a "Camshaft Floater" ---i'm going to do that next.--

D

[DFRESH]

About time you were the guinea pig buddy. :unibrow: You are making some great decisions. :thumbsup:

I'd give you a hug if you were here.

XXX OOO

[DFRESH]

Being honest about your feelings is the first step to recovery Dub. :thumbsup:

6ldAQ6Rh5ZI&feature

LOL---classic Skippy.

[Vegas69]

I'd give you a hug if you were here.

XXX OOO

No you wouldn't.:lol:

[Blake Foster]

I have to agree with Ron here, I would be jumping all over this if I could retro fit it to the 9" I just purchased from DSE. I am not in the position to buy a whole new housing, and I doubt mine would sell due to the custom width I ordered it in.
That being said it is a nice piece.

I hear you guys............. and MAYBE I will reconsider after a few are out there and i can get some additional feed back from Speedway. So lets not close that door completly.
I hope you guys can also understanfrom our point as well. that because it is new we really don't need any Negative feedback from someone who tried to do it themselves and had a bad experiance.

You would also have to get custom made housing adaptors made for your narrowing jig in order to even mount the ends, so there is a cost factor there to consider as well.

[KPC67]

I hear you guys............. and MAYBE I will reconsider after a few are out there and i can get some additional feed back from Speedway. So lets not close that door completly.
I hope you guys can also understanfrom our point as well. that because it is new we really don't need any Negative feedback from someone who tried to do it themselves and had a bad experiance.

You would also have to get custom made housing adaptors made for your narrowing jig in order to even mount the ends, so there is a cost factor there to consider as well.

Blake,
I hear what you are saying, I can respect the fact you want to get a few out there so you can ensure a good product.
Sooo.. that being said is it not as simple as cutting the torino ends off my housing (that is unused with the suspension brackets welded on by DSE, not me) and welding your ends on retaining the width I want? (52.875")
I would be willing to ship the housing to you as well; if that is a possibility?

[KPC67]

Going back and reading again I can totally see all your angles. Its hard to cater to everybody's situation.
In my situation like I stated my housing is a brand new DSE unit, unpainted as of yet, and I am only one province over from you as far as shipping goes.

[frankv11]

I have to agree with Ron here, I would be jumping all over this if I could retro fit it to the 9" I just purchased from DSE. I am not in the position to buy a whole new housing, and I doubt mine would sell due to the custom width I ordered it in.
That being said it is a nice piece.

x2:mad:

[Sieg]

I've been researching rearend options for a few years now and I've priced multiple options of modifying my 12 Bolt and without major shortcuts buying and complete Ford rear end and selling my basically new 12 bolt appears to be the best cost vs. features vs. performance option.

Please keep in mind: No decent businessman wants to turn away business especially in this economy. If modifying customer housings was cut and dried I'm sure they'd gladly be taking orders.

Set up costs, liability, reputation, market value, and profitablity all factor in to the equation. Basically the system is still in beta mode so give them a little time to sort all the variables out. Delivering genuine customer satisfaction doesn't happen overnight. :thumbsup:

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[Blake Foster]

Does this mean that if you did have a current rear set-up (like few guys have stated) that you could not just simply cut off your "ends" and retro-fit with your kit anyway, because basically you would end up with a narrower Wheel Mount Surface?

Of course this would mostly affect guys with existing wheel/tire packages. Am I reading correctly?

I Will start with this one.
That is how it appears from the drawings and numbers we have been working with. UNTILL we actually try one and see if it can be done i will not have a solid answer on that. Keep in mind the intent was to sell Complete units as it has never been a "Retrofit" so we need to do more work on that if we are going to go down that road. I will keep everyone posted.

[Blake Foster]

Blake, "no maintenance".....yes because the hub unit will not allow it as it is a sealed unit as we know, which also does not permit random inspection of such a key part that could very well send a wheel flying....so just how long will Speed Tech guarantee this "no maintenance" for?

Well you can still perform a random inspection of the unit if you were so inclined, I am sure that if there was a wear issue it would show up the same way it does on a Corvette, when hub bearings start to wear the WMS has play in it and that would indicate that the part would need to be replaced.

Will it be a SKF warranty on the hub since technically it is SKF's component (even though not being used for its intended application)...or will Speed Tech be replacing these $450 a piece hubs if they show any signs of wear?

Normal wear, or Racing Wear.
So I guess three questions:

How long a warranty on "NO maintenance"?
I do not have an answer for you as of right now I will research and let everyone know.Will the warranty exclude race type abuse?
How many warrantys "DO" cover RACE type abuse?

Who will be backing this warranty?
Speedtech.

I believe everybody would want to know this since these SKF hubs cannot be serviced and are probably not a part that anybody will want to replace after 1,2,3,4 or even five years given the cost per SKF hub.

I guess it would depend on your level of intended abuse and use, if you are not willing to change a wheel bearing asembly after 5 years of race type use then perhaps this is not the right unit for you??? you would rebuild the motor long before 5 years of race type use I would think and that is more than 900.00. I am not being an ass but lets be realistic about the use and abuse factor. if you are out at Race Type Events 10-15 times or more a year then I think you can expect parts to wear, All the Parts. I will try and contact a couple of the racing schools and see how often they are seeing issues.Thanks in advance for info!

Oh one more question....what material are these hubs cast from? It seams that currernt floater offerings (GMR,BAER,SPEEDWAY,ETC.) go to great length to supply a superior material when it comes to the driveplate/splines themselves as they ALL know this is a VERY key component....what material specifically are the SKF ones made of?

I know Chicane has spoken to SKF
I will see if I can track down this info,

Thanks for the questions.

[KPC67]

I've been researching rearend options for a few years now and I've priced multiple options of modifying my 12 Bolt and without major shortcuts buying and complete Ford rear end and selling my basically new 12 bolt appears to be the best cost vs. features vs. performance option.

Please keep in mind: No decent businessman wants to turn away business especially in this economy. If modifying customer housings was cut and dried I'm sure they'd gladly be taking orders.

Set up costs, liability, reputation, market value, and profitablity all factor in to the equation. Basically the system is still in beta mode so give them a little time to sort all the variables out. Delivering genuine customer satisfaction doesn't happen overnight. :thumbsup:

This is well said.
:thumbsup:

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[Payton King]

JSM/badrides, it is apparent that this product is not for you, but your continued bad mouthing of other people's solutions, products and choices have just gotten to be too much.

You continue to wave the GMR flag like we are all idoits for not having the product on our cars. GMR stuff is a nice design, but when it fails and it is going to fail, I would love to be there. All parts fail, it is just a fact.

The part that I am confused about is once you form an opinion, all others are inferior. I am too lazy to go back and cut and paste the post, but you were asking a question about C6Z06 calipers that you wanted to run and asked for opinions. When they did not jive with what you thought, you got defensive citing that GM has done testing and has more resources...blah, blah, blah. Then turn around and say GM does not know what they are doing in bearing pack design is just crazy.

Wear items are never under warranty and to ask Blake about a warranty on the bearings is just ridiculous.

Doug, sorry to hi-jack you post.

Blake, I would have one of these under my car had it been offered when I purchased my Moser floater.

JMS, take comfort in the fact that you have the best floater rear and front hub system in existance and we will all be running second to you in any event you attend.

[GregWeld]

^^^^^^^ Well said Payton!

[Blake Foster]

Wear items are never under warranty and to ask Blake about a warranty on the bearings is just ridiculous.

Funny you should say that. Just today I have Confirmed that in fact there WILL be a 12 month or 12,000 mile Warranty on the Wheel Hub, Excluding any damage from Contact. IE Crashing into ANYTHING!!
"I" Cant find any other manufacturers that state that they cover their Bearings.

Blake, I would have one of these under my car had it been offered when I purchased my Moser floater.

Well we will have to save one for your NEXT project won't we. :_paranoid

[JasonElvisHeard]

here is something you guys might find interesting. :)

http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?86693-GMR9-TX-Rear-End-Tooling-System




killer69 - setup looks good man! I personally think its a good idea, keep on pushing the pro-touring industry forward! Even I can appreciate that!

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[James OLC]

Placed an order for the Chicane SpeedTech floater today!

I'm lookin forward to using in OLC2!

[Sieg]

Placed an order for the Chicane SpeedTech floater today!

I'm lookin forward to using in OLC2!

Nice! :thumbsup:

[Vegas69]

I don't feel JSM's questions are unreasonable. There is nothing wrong with asking questions about a product with 0 miles.

[JasonElvisHeard]

I dont see why all the fuss about JSM's questions...

You should have see / heard all the questions I received about the GMR products about a year ago from him... :D

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[Blake Foster]

Originally Posted by killer69

Funny you should say that. Just today I have Confirmed that in fact there WILL be a 12 month or 12,000 mile Warranty on the Wheel Hub, Excluding any damage from Contact. IE Crashing into ANYTHING!!

That is great that you ARE offering a warranty, I will see if it is in my Dad's budget still since yearly or so replacement is being implied and may be needed.

I am glad to see you are considering this as an option, we are obviously moving in a positive direction.:cheers: I don't think I am implying that a yearly replacement may be needed, I am simply offering a warranty, it is not a life time warranty but it is a warranty and after reading some other sites I think it is actually pretty good coverage. for a part that will get used at "race type events" and probably even RACED
I spent some time on the phone today and am having a follow up conversation tomorrow with a top driving school at a very well known track that uses Grand Sport, Z06 and ZR1 Corvetts in the school. they actually had a very different out look on the Corvette hubs qoute" we have seen very few failures since 2008 even in the GS models. this is a track with mostly right had turns and one would expect the left rear to be the big problem." they have not had an issue with any of the ZR1 cars to date.

"I" Cant find any other manufacturers that state that they cover their Bearings. Actually you had asked about "race parts" being warrantied...you know, like these SKF "race hubs". But if we are now in agreeance that race parts DO have warranties, I guess I will answer your new question pertaining to the bearing. You are probably right.....on just bearings, but as you just stated above...this is a "wheel hub" and not just bearings we are talking about. So to clarify.... is this "warranty" ONLY covering the hub body itself, and the actual ball bearings & splines have none?

"the internet" Pfadt, SKF and others call them a Race Hub, they are the OEM hub used on the ZR1 Call it what you will. The UNIT is one piece the bearings are really the only wear part of the unit but as a UNIT there will be a 12 month 12,000 mile warranty. If the housing melts??? it will be covered, if the bearings become loose it is covered, if it is bent and you are ordering a new wheel??? I will probably ask that you send your rear end housing in to have it checked for straightness and straightened and then guess what. NO warranty.

Alright, alright, I will ask a easy question as to not make Payton mad.....What color housings do you offer? Does the kit come with a sticker? JK...lighten up everybody! The housings will be a very nice steel grey :lol:
You asked about the hub housing material... it is actually Forged, I am trying to get the actual alloy number. Not sure if it will be possible but I am working on it for you.

[Musclerodz]

so the hubs your using are the same one Phadt sells correct?

[Blake Foster]

so the hubs your using are the same one Phadt sells correct?

To the best of my knowledge.
The one they show on their site is EXACTLY the same as the ZR1 hub even tho they are calling it the Phadt/skf race hub ????

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[Blake Foster]

Interesting, Not the same inital information I received from SKF on the hub. I will continue to follow up.

Hopefully if it is acceptable for GM and Pfadt it will be acceptable for the rest of us.

[frojoe]

Get rid of that 3/16 end play and your problem will be solved. That's way to much slop for any caliper set up. I bet someone has figured out an economical solution. Otherwise you are putting lip stick on a pig.

I measured the axle flange end play at ~ 0.011" on my 8.5" 10 bolt with Moser 31spline axles and Detroit TruTrac.. then I removed the posi's "center spacer" that prevents the axles from traveling inwards and allowing the c-clips from popping out. Measured this spacer's width and made a new, wider one, that brought the axle flange end play down to ~0.001". Figured it would be good to allow some running clearance for heat expansion and to avoid bearing preload. I have yet to drive it but I have 7/8" manual master and 4piston fixed Dynalites in the back, hoping to test out within the next couple weeks. Not sure if this is helpful for you Torino-bearing'd guys but simply an idea.

[James OLC]

A couple of comments that I can make with a fair bit of certainty... since I've had hands on experience...


The Pfadt Racing Hubs are exactly the same as the the SKF hubs - there is no difference. They are simply doing a better marketing job.

The SKF Racing hubs are materially different from the stock Corvette (i.e. non-ZR1) hubs. There are additional bearings (on the (in the?) outside shoulder) and the shoulder itself is larger diameter to accommodate the additional bearings and improve the pressure base.

While the materials used in the SKF and stock bearings may be the same (I can't prove it one way or another) I believe that the process is different - the SKF hubs are visibly different.


While I understand the desire to be thorough in looking at a "new" product - I really can't understand why the SKF bearing would be the part in question. I think that it is safe to say that it is the least unknown or unproven commodity here.

I have to hand it to Tom and Blake and co. for designing a system which takes advantage of a reliable, street and track proven component and adapting to to "our" applications.

[GregWeld]

I measured the axle flange end play at ~ 0.011" on my 8.5" 10 bolt with Moser 31spline axles and Detroit TruTrac.. then I removed the posi's "center spacer" that prevents the axles from traveling inwards and allowing the c-clips from popping out. Measured this spacer's width and made a new, wider one, that brought the axle flange end play down to ~0.001". Figured it would be good to allow some running clearance for heat expansion and to avoid bearing preload. I have yet to drive it but I have 7/8" manual master and 4piston fixed Dynalites in the back, hoping to test out within the next couple weeks. Not sure if this is helpful for you Torino-bearing'd guys but simply an idea.


I'm not a metallurgist - but allowing for only .001" growth in axle length (figuring 20+ inches?) certainly doesn't allow for much heat expansion. :wow:

[Sieg]

I'm not a metallurgist - but allowing for only .001" growth in axle length (figuring 20+ inches?) certainly doesn't allow for much heat expansion. :wow:

+1 Extreme ambient temp variations could possibly cover .001"?

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[DFRESH]

A couple of comments that I can make with a fair bit of certainty... since I've had hands on experience...


The Pfadt Racing Hubs are exactly the same as the the SKF hubs - there is no difference. They are simply doing a better marketing job.

The SKF Racing hubs are materially different from the stock Corvette (i.e. non-ZR1) hubs. There are additional bearings (on the (in the?) outside shoulder) and the shoulder itself is larger diameter to accommodate the additional bearings and improve the pressure base.

While the materials used in the SKF and stock bearings may be the same (I can't prove it one way or another) I believe that the process is different - the SKF hubs are visibly different.


While I understand the desire to be thorough in looking at a "new" product - I really can't understand why the SKF bearing would be the part in question. I think that it is safe to say that it is the least unknown or unproven commodity here.

I have to hand it to Tom and Blake and co. for designing a system which takes advantage of a reliable, street and track proven component and adapting to to "our" applications.


James, you will most likely have yours in and running before I do. Lots of folks have already asked me for feedback as soon as that is possible---so let's agree that we will come back here and post that feedback in this thread (if it's not locked by then) for future consumers to assist in real seat of the pants and actual performance/impressions. Durability will prove itself over time, and since we both attend many events and drive the cars quite a bit, we should also be able to provide that piece as well in the future.

See you at RTTC---Taco cart and Apple Pie have been secured.

D

[Vegas69]

:yes: Screw the floater, tacos and apple pie will fix anything.

[DFRESH]

:yes: Screw the floater, tacos and apple pie will fix anything.

Amen---and with respect to the Apple Pie, there is a noticable improvement immediately following install.

[James OLC]

What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men.

:rolleyes:

James, you will most likely have yours in and running before I do. Lots of folks have already asked me for feedback as soon as that is possible---so let's agree that we will come back here and post that feedback in this thread (if it's not locked by then) for future consumers to assist in real seat of the pants and actual performance/impressions. Durability will prove itself over time, and since we both attend many events and drive the cars quite a bit, we should also be able to provide that piece as well in the future.

See you at RTTC---Taco cart and Apple Pie have been secured.

D

Looking forward to it my friend. I don't know where this thread will be in a month (I would assume nowhere good based on where it is now) but I know that I'll have the floater in the OLC (Baer's not Chicane's) and will be able to provide some feedback on that. With luck Blake will have the Chicane housing for OLC2 when he comes down (I'm being presumptuous with that) so
we can look at one while beating on the other.

[GregWeld]

I feel a ban coming on....

[skatinjay27]

i love chips, Doritos, Frito's, lays...

but my favorite are the shoulder kind.;)

[frojoe]

I'm not a metallurgist - but allowing for only .001" growth in axle length (figuring 20+ inches?) certainly doesn't allow for much heat expansion. :wow:

I do have the c-clip setup still in, so the length in question is actually the ~0.5" between the c-clip seat and the end of the axle (what the center spacer pins up against).. axle tube bearings just support the axles radially.. i was more thinking of trying to remove as much axial play as possible without adding axial preload to the c-clips...

[GregWeld]

I do have the c-clip setup still in, so the length in question is actually the ~0.5" between the c-clip seat and the end of the axle (what the center spacer pins up against).. axle tube bearings just support the axles radially.. i was more thinking of trying to remove as much axial play as possible without adding axial preload to the c-clips...


I've stayed out of this floater conversation because I just am not knowledgable on suspension or rear ends... So as long as you've thought thru the clearances -- which appears you have ('cause I certainly don't know anything about them)... then good! :thumbsup:

[Blake Foster]

Amen---and with respect to the Apple Pie, there is a noticable improvement immediately following install.

REALLY......................... You can confirm that from first hand experiance can you??? or is that just what everyone has told you lmao :rofl:

[Matt@BOS]

REALLY......................... You can confirm that from first hand experiance can you??? or is that just what everyone has told you lmao :rofl:

Make sure to have Doug pay you for the parts after the apple. That little trick worked for me last year :lol:

Matt

[Blake Foster]

DAMN Never even though of that............. prehaps I can hit him up for the delivery costs..... 1700 miles At 12 mpg and 3.80 per gallon ????/ :lol:

[DFRESH]

REALLY......................... You can confirm that from first hand experiance can you??? or is that just what everyone has told you lmao :rofl:

You were here last year--pretty sure you saw my hands on experience---lol. Thank you again for the delivery of the parts---please feel free to have an extra taco on Cris. Let's install the parts that Saturday night for fun. What could be more fun than that.

D

[chr2002ca]

What could be more fun than that.
D

Cheerleaders on trampolines?

I think you made a great choice Doug. :thumbsup:

[Blake Foster]

[QUOTE=chr2002ca;393201]Cheerleaders on trampolines?

YEA Doug .......... CHEERLEADERS ON TRAMPOLINES!!!! would be WAY more fun.

since your not paying for the TACO party maybe we should rent a trampoline??? :rofl:

[GregWeld]

[QUOTE=chr2002ca;393201]Cheerleaders on trampolines?

YEA Doug .......... CHEERLEADERS ON TRAMPOLINES!!!! would be WAY more fun.

since your not paying for the TACO party maybe we should rent a trampoline??? :rofl:

I'd chip in for a "vacation" for Cassie and the kids.... :D

[DFRESH]

[QUOTE=chr2002ca;393201]Cheerleaders on trampolines?

YEA Doug .......... CHEERLEADERS ON TRAMPOLINES!!!! would be WAY more fun.

since your not paying for the TACO party maybe we should rent a trampoline??? :rofl:

Have something better than that, a pool. Shall I heat it this year?

Man, this thread has gotten way off the beaten path---

[Blake Foster]

[QUOTE=killer69;393213]

I'd chip in for a "vacation" for Cassie and the kids.... :D

I'm in too.

HEAT THE POOL!!!

Ya, that floater conversation was going sideways anyway lol

[DFRESH]

[QUOTE=GregWeld;393217]

I'm in too.

HEAT THE POOL!!!

Ya, that floater conversation was going sideways anyway lol

Didn't you mean to say, the floater conversation got knocked back?

Pool heater is set to run. I don't have any Cheerleaders though, except for Todd and Dave--and i've seen both of them in skirts--last time in Vegas--we don't talk much about that though. We need Skip to post up one of the SNL Cheerleader vids for this one.

D

[frojoe]

wow this thread got derailed hard & quick haha

[GregWeld]

I've still got the number of Big Wanda... I'm sure she has "friends" that could bounce our "tramp"oline.... after a bit of apple pie coaching.:woot:

[ccracin]

:rofl: :willy: :hail: :lol: :wow: :faint: :unibrow: :D

[Blake Foster]

I've still got the number of Big Wanda... I'm sure she has "friends" that could bounce our "tramp"oline.... after a bit of apple pie coaching.:woot:

LOL thats funnnnnny

[chr2002ca]

I've still got the number of Big Wanda... I'm sure she has "friends" that could bounce our "tramp"oline.... after a bit of apple pie coaching.:woot:

Wrote the number down did you? Hey, get in line buddy. :lol:

Doug, it's a bit cold this time of year for a pool, even if it's heated. It might get a bit too nippley, I mean nippy. Sorry, can't type.

If I show up with a big honkin trampoline strapped to my car, there better be some f'ing cheerleaders. Wait, I got that backwards. If I show with some cheerleaders strapped to my car ...

[Blake Foster]

Just a bit of an update and get this back on track.
Currently we are building 4 units, 1 is comming for install in My Nova for RTTC as soon as it shovs up I will post up some more pictures and install info.
We have pricing worked out if you are iinterested give me a call.

[chicane]

Wow. My metallurgist can beat up your metallurgist.

This has certainly been entertaining, considering all of the speculative commentary associated to the "logic and common sense" (read: lack of any inclusive material science) approach of certain personalities. Good times.

I'd like to order two taco's and a Chinchilla with my pie.


From the info "I" can find . this car uses the ZR1 rear hubs and mono block calipers (fixed i will assume)

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/tn_midohio008.jpg

sorry pic is small , 2011 C6R


Actually Blake, it utilizes fabricated spindles and radially mounted (fixed) two piece AP's.

Front:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k270/chicane67/DCP_0420.jpg

Rear:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k270/chicane67/DCP_0426.jpg


Hope you got what you were looking for Dougie.

[DFRESH]

Wow. My metallurgist can beat up your metallurgist.

This has certainly been entertaining, considering all of the speculative commentary associated to the "logic and common sense" (read: lack of any inclusive material science) approach of certain personalities. Good times.

I'd like to order two taco's and a Chinchilla with my pie.





Actually Blake, it utilizes fabricated spindles and radially mounted (fixed) two piece AP's.

Front:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k270/chicane67/DCP_0420.jpg

Rear:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k270/chicane67/DCP_0426.jpg


Hope you got what you were looking for Dougie.

I feel like we are somehow related now.

So the pics are from the Vette above then, right?

D

[chicane]

That was just before they went back to 'iron' from the rule changes in the GT class... but effectively, yes, pretty much the same thing minus the carbon/carbon.

This pic shows a glimpse of the iron "J-hook" rotors now being used:

Laguna Seca GT2
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k270/chicane67/34074_402772847238_507797238_4344619_4497749_n.jpg

[Blake Foster]

Wow. My metallurgist can beat up your metallurgist.

This has certainly been entertaining, considering all of the speculative commentary associated to the "logic and common sense" (read: lack of any inclusive material science) approach of certain personalities. Good times.

I'd like to order two taco's and a Chinchilla with my pie.





Actually Blake, it utilizes fabricated spindles and radially mounted (fixed) two piece AP's.

Front:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k270/chicane67/DCP_0420.jpg

Rear:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k270/chicane67/DCP_0426.jpg


Hope you got what you were looking for Dougie.


I stand corrected.
Maybe something like this should be next on the list???

[chicane]

It's about four grand a corner, just for the brakes alone... ya sure about that Blake ? :lol:

That's a-lot of tacos...

[Sieg]

It's about four grand a corner, just for the brakes alone... ya sure about that Blake ? :lol:

That's a-lot of tacos...
Are you possibly under-estimating the value of bragging rights at a cruise-in? :D

[Blake Foster]

Are you possibly under-estimating the value of bragging rights at a cruise-in? :D

^^^^^^^^ what he said

[Blake Foster]

It's about four grand a corner, just for the brakes alone... ya sure about that Blake ? :lol:

That's a-lot of tacos...

that is probably the cheep part!!!!

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[GregWeld]

Good gawd this is a pissy thread....

Every time I see a new post here - I think I must not be on Lat G anymore....:wow: :wow: :faint: :rofl:

[Sieg]

You can laugh, joke, avoid the questions with little comments.....but this speaks volumes. Still interested to know how your stamped housing is stronger than "any fabricated plate type" as you stated over on PT and never explained?
I've wondered why the US President is still popular, regretefully, critical mass is the answer. I doubt you're going to win the popularity vote in this election.

[Vegas69]

Sometimes engineering defeats substance.

[Blake Foster]

[QUOTE=JSM;395990]Just for the record....my metallurgist IS one of the SKF engineers. Thought you would appreciate knowing what the "race" hub is actually made of since neither you or distributor could answer. See if I help you out again. ;)

Can you forward me his contact info, we have had a couple calls in and emailed our contact at SKF with no response to date, we can not make up what the hub is constructed of that is the reason you have not received the answer. Perhaps your contact can get me the answer we are looking for. feel free to email me at blake@speedtechperformance. com that would be a big help.

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[Vegas69]

I don't think any piece on a race car is not subject to reduced life. All they do is go fast with a constant beating from bumper to bumper.

In my eyes, it's what fits this application the best. A majority of pro touring cars see many more street miles than track. Also, there are a handful of guys that can really drive and take advantage of the performance available. The best cars around here see barely over a G of force. For 99% of the guys around here, a Corvette application is plenty and is the most applicable in my eyes.

After all, this really isn't a racing site. These cars are all about riding the fence line and being able to jump a little to the left and right.

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[ccracin]

You got me :D Well, hopefully all you who doubted the info do not blow his phone off the hook at the same time :cheers:

I will delete my post if you want to alter yours to get rid of that info! :cheers:

[MillerBuilt]

Delete

[Blake Foster]

I believe it was 2010’ were GM specifically excluded the wheel bearing units (ALL Corvettes including ZR1) from the powertrain warranty entirely…..hmmmm wonder why?

Also, some very interesting verbiage on the SKF “race” Hub used by ALL CORVETTE parts retailers to advertise this SKF/ZR1 hub (of which is part of SKF marketing package). I would hope that these countless number of CORVETTE retailers of which are also active race teams will be adequate to site critiques as to the life expectancy of a ZR1 hub as used in a track type environment. Below is the exact marketing verbiage.



“you may go an entire season without replacement”.


Good thing they have a 12 month warranty

i am just going to leave it at that , you have other products that you like. this is the route we have chosen to go , for better or worse, through sickness and............... wait wrong commitment. anyway

thanks for the banter.
:thumbsup:

[Blake Foster]

So here is an update, we had received my complete unit and installed it in ResurreXion. loaded it in the trailer and off to RTTC.
install was straightforward, everything fit as designed.
At RTTC first event was the Drag stop and no issues there. on the Road Course Jay reported NO brake knock back as was expected.
the car ran hard finishing either 3 o4 or 5th on the road course, not positive yet, and 4th or 5th on the Auto X. so beating on it was ont an issue.

here are some pictures of the production part.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/FullKitDisplayedWithAxles.jpg

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/FullRearEndAssembled.jpg

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/FullHousingOnly.jpg

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/HousingBreather.jpg

[GregWeld]

AWESOME! EH!


:thumbsup: