FAST XFI or Holley Dominator or ?

[BBC71Nova]

I'm hoping to get started on the engine build this spring. Right now I'm looking to go with an EFI setup. Which one is the question.

It sounds like the Holley Dominator EFI is getting a lot of press lately. Is there anything to that beyond just being the newer kid on the block than XFI or is it really a better product? This is for a naturally aspirated BBC.

[GregWeld]

Have you looked at the FAST EZ EFI?? You can run multiport injectors with it - I do on both my 8 stack EFI cars...

Hook it up - answer the questions - start it up - go drive - in half an hour she's tuned up... and then just keeps getting better from there.

I'm not a fan of their system with the wet injection --- I just like the 8 injector harness. Plug it in and run.

[64duece]

You've likely seen alot of.press lately due to.the release of the V2 Software which incorporated many new features such as boost, traction control etc. Hands down it's one of the nicest systems available for the cost. It is self learning and can control nearly any system you desire (TBI, Dual TBI, MPFI, Drive by Wire ) along with standard and LS/DIS Ignitions. Check out the latest software at http://www.holley.com/TechService/Library.asp

[BBC71Nova]

Greg, thanks! Not sure how I missed that capability with EZ EFI. I was thinking it was TBI only.

Dennis, thanks for the info. I've read many of your posts recently here and other places. I guess you "get around" ha. I was planning to give you a call sometime as well to discuss. I sent a buddy your way when you had an XFI setup for sale. Off the '55 I think. I see now that was likely to make room for the Dominator setup. One of these days I gotta pick your brain :)

[GregWeld]

I'm running my buddies 496 BBC w/ nasty Brodix heads and a roller cam and Imagine Injection 8 stack on the EZ EFI Multiport controller.

We switched over from the FAST XFI 2.0 when he went with the 8 stack.

The "tuners" hate these systems because there's no money in it for them... but if your motor is pretty "normal" - not the super huge lumpy cam etc... then they work great. If you have no vacuum at idle etc.. THEN you need a tunable system. My two motors - and this 496 were built with wide LSA (114* or so) cams = so they were built with EFI in mind. It makes a difference.

My cars start INSTANTLY --- and idle cold.... and they run like EFI motors should. None of these three even run IAC (idle air control). They just don't need it.

The other thing that I really like about this system is that you can just run a normal distributor etc. The EZ EFI only controls fueling... no timing. So for most of us this keeps the system simple and we can use our old skool carb/timing experience to get the motor in tune.

Just remember that there's a few things to learn about EFI -- and one of them is DO NOT run your MSD box or any of that wiring in a loom with the EFI stuff... If you do - you'll have all manor of nastiness going on. These need to be kept as far away from each other as you can get 'em -- boxes AND the wiring.

[64duece]

John,

That was correct, we previously ran the Fast XFI (std distributor) along with a PCS trans controller for the 4L80e, an Exile boost conttoller and AIS Water/Meth Injection. Once we installed the Dominator...all thos boxes/software came out. We also decided to benchmark the standard distributor vs DIS which was a nice improvment. Next were onto LSx coils to how they compare back to back (several LSx coil types). A few other upgrades along the way were a factory 2010 Camaro 90mm Drive by Wire throttlebody which made alot.of off idle drivability improvement vs a standard race piece. The addition of Holley's integrated Water/Meth and Boost control solenoids helped.tie.in the system together. We're currently awaiting the new Davis Technologies Traction Control to test down in Florida in the next few days. All reports show its been a great added feature.

[BBC71Nova]

Greg has peaked my interest so I gotta dig into that a little more. The EzEFI is less expensive so that is a plus. Although for this build I had largely written it off as an option. Didn't figure it would support ~650hp BBC. Not sure yet how aggressive the build will be. Could get fairly radical though :).


So recently I've spoken to tech reps for a couple of the popular EFI companies trying to get some guidance. I went into both calls with some preconceived notion that I wanted to go sequential EFI w/DIS. Packaging being one of the driving factors, i.e. distributor clearance maybe, hide the coils so no wires draped over everything, no need for MSD box, etc. More specifically I was wanting to go "coil near plug" instead of a waste fire setup. Maybe use the LSx coils with some aftermarket EFI/ignition controller to accomplish this. Although I had no idea if that was possible. Just not much info out there on this setup. Almost like nobody is building BBC/SBC anymore :).

One of the techs I spoke to basically said there isn't any need/reason to go DIS. I also didn't feel the other made a convincing argument either. On paper it seems worthwhile so I was a little perplexed. I'm interested to hear how this next step in your setup works Dennis.

One issue I'm having is what to do with the dampner mounted trigger wheel. I'm running the Frontrunner and I'd prefer not to space out the crank pulley and then everything else. ATI makes a dampner shell with crank trigger magnets installed that would solve the dimension issue. However, the issue there is 1. it is magnetic pickup, 2. lower resolution signal when compared to a 58x/60-2 hall effect setup. ATI said they have and can build a dampner with 60-2 style wheel but that it is a 120day custom order and cost like $800. A "not so sure it is possible", more drastic idea I had was to take a wheel and machine out the inner section to match the outer dimension of the crank pulley. Weld them together and machine it flat. Sort of a pulley/trigger wheel in one.

The other issue is lack of a good solution for providing a cam signal. EFI Connection has a modified OE 7.4l distributor that is popular it seems. Others are just cutting reluctor tabs off of their old MSD distributors making them 1x cam sync signals. Surely there is a more elegant solution to this cam sync. Others tell me no, there just isn't much market and I should just go LS like the rest of the world. I'm putting lipstick on a pig...

MSD used to make this cam sync distributor plug that looked like an awesome solution. Been out of production for few years and I've also been told it wasn't dependable signal and not good over 5500rpm. Otherwise it would be awesome. Very small package, adjustable collar, etc.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/msd-8514_w.jpg
Photo courtesy of Summit Racing :)

[GregWeld]

The ONLY reason you'd need a cam signal is IF you want to run your EFI in Sequential mode.... No need for it in BATCH mode regardless of which ECU you're running.

Sequential is for super fine tuning... and you'd have better control for emissions testing etc. But we don't need that because for the most part our cars are exempt.

[mikels]

One issue I'm having is what to do with the dampner mounted trigger wheel. I'm running the Frontrunner and I'd prefer not to space out the crank pulley and then everything else. ATI makes a dampner shell with crank trigger magnets installed that would solve the dimension issue. However, the issue there is 1. it is magnetic pickup, 2. lower resolution signal when compared to a 58x/60-2 hall effect setup. ATI said they have and can build a dampner with 60-2 style wheel but that it is a 120day custom order and cost like $800. A "not so sure it is possible", more drastic idea I had was to take a wheel and machine out the inner section to match the outer dimension of the crank pulley. Weld them together and machine it flat. Sort of a pulley/trigger wheel in one.

The other issue is lack of a good solution for providing a cam signal. EFI Connection has a modified OE 7.4l distributor that is popular it seems. Others are just cutting reluctor tabs off of their old MSD distributors making them 1x cam sync signals. Surely there is a more elegant solution to this cam sync. Others tell me no, there just isn't much market and I should just go LS like the rest of the world. I'm putting lipstick on a pig...

http://www.chevroletperformance.com/Parts/catalog.jsp

Go to page 305 of latest Chevrolet Performance Parts catalog - Item H

H. 19260247
Big-Block Crank Trigger Ignition Conversion Kit
• Enables the use of the latest aftermarket electronic control systems
• 58X reluctor ring for installation on the front of the crankshaft
timing gear
• 4X camshaft gear
• New front cover with camshaft position and crankshaft
position sensors
• Double-row timing chain for greater durability, stability and timing
accuracy
• Requires aftermarket ignition controller capable of 58X signal
• Coil packs are not included
NOTE: Minor machining of the cylinder block and the damper is required.

Can run a big block off Performance Parts Crate Engine controller kit (E67) if you want - else have great 58x crank / 4x cam pickup assembly.

If run with Crate Engine Controller, can run individual coils rather than distributor.

Dave

[BBC71Nova]

Thanks Dave. That's pretty awesome. Hadn't ran across that yet. That's super clean from a packaging perspective. Have no idea if the 4x cam sync will work with either XFI or Holley EFI setups though. Maybe they can support it.

The other issue I see initially is that it is for a 6 bolt timing cover Gen VI block. GM, if you are listening, can we get a gen IV version of this? :D

BTW, that new GMPP catalog has the LS 376 "boost ready" crate engines listed. Those are sweet. One of those with a Maggie tossed on top would be the ticket.

[64duece]

The 58x stuff was primarily used for misfire detection. 4x Crank/1x Cam we use quite often with excellent results. Holley now offers a Hall Effect sensor to directly replace MSD Mag sensor for a digital conversion. We use the EFI Connection 1x Cam Sync drives in a few dozen applications...never an issue.

IMO, if your spending this type of money on EFI, its wise money spent to get the best it has to offer...SEFI and Ignition Control should not be left off the list. DIS/CnP is a nice feature bit not gonna make or break from a performance stand point.

[supremeefi]

Or you could just do an engine builders kit from Accel, dual sync distributor to run in sequential, intake, injectors, pump etc. and everything plugs right in.
FAST has them now too but not sure of their available manifold selections.
And just an fyi, Mallory as well as AEM are now making a distributor/pickup like the one pictured a few posts ago.

[BBC71Nova]

Cool. This is turning into some good information. I had searched a week or so back to see if another manufacturer had something similar but I failed even after looking specifically at the Mallory site :(. With your confirmation I was able to locate it. Another cool option. At least it appears that way. I'll have to see if I can dig up the specs for the sensors somehow.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/MAA-77100D.jpg
Again courtesy of our friends at Summit Racing :). Mallory Firestorm Dual Sync Sensor product page (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/maa-77100d/overview/)

Freaky timing since I just spoke to their tech Monday about this and it wasn't mentioned but... I also received a marketing email from the folks at ATI today introducing some new damper shells they are producing with a 24x reluctor wheel built into the shell. Not enough details yet to know if they would be of use to a SBC/BBC conversion or not. Just that they come in 6" and 7" sizes. Not sure if I could take my existing ATI Superdamper and put the guts in a new shell or not. They are "made for AEM Infinity Systems". Here's the press release. (http://atiracing.com/links/pr/2013/02-AEM-shells/)

[supremeefi]

The Mallory stuff is out. The ATI damper release says they can retrofit.
I'm now AEM dealer as well and I know that only some of the Infinity systems are out. The system that would best run your BBC won't be out till the fall. They're still working on the software.

The Mallory stuff will plug right in to the Accel Gen 7 and Thruster but will work with just about anything.
The Mallory Firestorm box is also a CD box, providing 150 millijoules of spark power.

Hope this helps.

[mikels]

The 58x stuff was primarily used for misfire detection.

Primary reason for 58x (60x - 2 teeth) is can be used on any cylinder count engine with any bank angle configuration with an edge lining up for every cylinder TDC (edge @ every 6 deg crank angle).

[64duece]

Primary reason for 58x (60x - 2 teeth) is can be used on any cylinder count engine with any bank angle configuration with an edge lining up for every cylinder TDC (edge @ every 6 deg crank angle).

True this impacts application, however we were discussing resolution as it implies to performance. The OEs measure the delta between the waveforms to detect changes in RPM for misfire detection. Aftermarket ECUs don't employ such srategy. The lower cost 4x Balancer he spoke of is a viable option vs the costly 60-2 version for his standard V8. One point i will mention, a DIS Wastefire can run without a cam sync (batchfire fuel strategy) in the event of a failure using a 60-2. The 4-0 must have a cam sync.

[Steve Chryssos]

We love or self-learning Holley EFI system. Prior to this self-learn technology we'd always fly-in a tuning expert to get results. On a private jet. And put him up at the Ritz Carton. :G-Dub: And call in the escort service. :confused59: Good tuners were and are still in high demand, but for relatively mild engines, self learn EFI has it's place.

As Greg stated, decent vacuum, is important for good results. We fired up our Holley EFI on a fresh engine with only moderate vacuum. Moderate vacuum means a little more manual tuning is required. Ring seal is important as well. After a while, the self learn mode will start to second guess itself, so turn it off and let the standard closed loop function do it's thing.

DIS is not required. Taking that point further, you can get your self-learning EFI up and running with just a standard ignition, then add DIS down the line. Greater spark resolution IS beneficial for getting the most from your engine. A standalone Electromotive XDI kit is the hot ticket there. Good people.
http://www.electromotive-inc.com/products/xdi.php

[Steve Chryssos]

It's not the most in depth article, but you might find a pointer or two in my Holley EFI install series. A lot of what applies to the HP also applies to the Dominator:

Holley HP EFI pt 1 (http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/1968-chevrolet-camaro/in-with-the-new-holley-hp-efi/)

Fuel System (http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/1968-chevrolet-camaro/building-a-custom-efi-fuel-system/)

[supremeefi]

We love or self-learning Holley EFI system. Prior to this self-learn technology we'd always fly-in a tuning expert to get results. On a private jet. And put him up at the Ritz Carton. :G-Dub: And call in the escort service. :confused59: Good tuners were and are still in high demand, but for relatively mild engines, self learn EFI has it's place.

As Greg stated, decent vacuum, is important for good results. We fired up our Holley EFI on a fresh engine with only moderate vacuum. Moderate vacuum means a little more manual tuning is required. Ring seal is important as well. After a while, the self learn mode will start to second guess itself, so turn it off and let the standard closed loop function do it's thing.


There are few problems I have with a self learning systems.
One is just as you mentioned. They will have a tendency to chase their own tail on more than a mild build.
Two, if you're a novice and don't know what the correct air/fuels are to enter in that table then guess what, it'll try to hit what may be wrong target air/fuel. At that point self learning is useless.
Plus you still also have to do cold start, enter the right spark curve, play with the transient fueling tables etc. It's hardly ever the end all.

And when it comes to having qualified personel to help I'm with you 100%. There are too many "tuners" that simply don't have a clue. I've probably done or redone more tunes succesfully via the internet than some have sitting in the front seat. There are few examples right here on this site. And some of those were on "self learning' systems. Unfortunately there are a few who are in it for a quick buck and then off in the sunset they go.

Get a system that meets all your needs/wants and secure the help you need, before you get too far into it.

Thanks and best of luck in your project!!