T56 Magnum White Lightning Shifter - update on the way

[carbuff]

I just spoke to American Powertrain regarding the White Lightning shifter, and specifically asked them about leaking issues. I was talking to Jason in tech support, and he was quick to acknowledge that there is a leaking issue on the original design, but they have a new base design being machined right now which has a lip on the base to use a seal to stop the leaks. My guess would be that they are going to use something like the original Tremec seal, but I didn't ask for sure.

He said that they are expecting these to be ready within about a week. I didn't order one yet, I may try out the stock Tremec shifter first. But for those of you who have had problems in the past, maybe there is finally a solution.

On a related note, I recall reading that Hurst has updated the Blackjack similarly. Does anyone have experience with this updated version to know if the leak issues have been resolved? I'm trying to line up the shifter I want to use for TOW.

[Sieg]

Spoke with Hurst end of last week, their's should be ready to ship in couple of weeks. They completely re-engineered the design and are standing behind their product for those of us that bought the original unlike the other company who promised their's was far superior to Hurst's and wouldn't leak.

Video's worth a thousand words..........
TAtF_-ZLnQs

It leaked 60-80% more than the "inferior" Hurst product :rolleyes:
Shifter feel and throw is similar, the WL may have a very slight edge but that's debatable. Hurst has went out of their way to take care of this situation financially and re-engineering the product with input from myself and others. This started in the summer of 2011 and I wasn't swept under the carpet. :thumbsup:

[chr2002ca]

Wow, now this shifter too? I know a few folks who changed from the Black Jack shifter to the White Lightning shifter specifically because their Black Jack shifter was leaking. That right there would be irritating. Thanks for sharing this information. I was interested in the White Lightning, but I think I'll just stick with the Tremec shifter and avoid the issues, regardless of upcoming 'revised editions' that don't leak like the first edition should have done. Where's the testing on these products? I guess we're the testers, using our own $$$ of course. Now, if a compay steps up and does a free replacement of the defective first edition with the corrected edition, then they're doing it right.

[parsonsj]

I'm looking forward to the new White Lightning too. I installed 3 versions of the previous design -- and they all leaked.

For now, the customer is using the stock shifter. It doesn't leak, but it rattles.
:(

I need a shifter that doesn't rattle or leak.

[Sieg]

Wow, now this shifter too? I know a few folks who changed from the Black Jack shifter to the White Lightning shifter specifically because their Black Jack shifter was leaking. That right there would be irritating. Thanks for sharing this information. I was interested in the White Lightning, but I think I'll just stick with the Tremec shifter and avoid the issues, regardless of upcoming 'revised editions' that don't leak like the first edition should have done. Where's the testing on these products? I guess we're the testers, using our own $$$ of course. Now, if a company steps up and does a free replacement of the defective first edition with the corrected edition, then they're doing it right.
Where the engineering lacked was consideration for utilizing the shifter in forward position which places it over the top of this gear........
http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Hurst-Blackjack-Shifter/i-cxPpSsr/0/XL/IMG_3685-XL.jpg

A machine fit without an internal seal compounded by an internal case pressure of up to 10 psi won't control the oil slung by that gear.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-f2nwx6g/0/M/i-f2nwx6g-M.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-g5CsVGT/0/M/i-g5CsVGT-M.jpg

Now if I hadn't built this cover to gain tunnel clearance which also conveniently serves as a shifter access panel............I'd have been seriously PO'd.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-jSMqdgH/0/XL/i-jSMqdgH-XL.jpg


In the rear mounting position neither shifter leak, they just weep a little. So until the new shfter was engineered I'm running the Hurst in the rear position with these tunnel and console plates.
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9qq3n86/0/M/i-9qq3n86-M.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-FpmR6Dc/1/M/i-FpmR6Dc-M.jpg

All said, having some redesign insight gives me confidence in Hurst's redesign. Being under the B&M umbrella is good and bad in that they have the resources but the corporate processes take time.

[carbuff]

Sieg,

Thanx for the update on the BlackJack as well! I unfortunately read somewhere that they don't sell them independently though, only as part of a kit. Do you know if that is true or not?

For now, I'm going to start out with the stock Tremec and see how I like it. I'm going to use a short stick, since my transmission is raised. We'll see how that combination works out.

[Sieg]

Sieg,

Thanx for the update on the BlackJack as well! I unfortunately read somewhere that they don't sell them independently though, only as part of a kit. Do you know if that is true or not?

For now, I'm going to start out with the stock Tremec and see how I like it. I'm going to use a short stick, since my transmission is raised. We'll see how that combination works out.
Good question!
The original was somewhat of a prototype, I'm guessing they'll take this one to the general market to recoup the investment. I'll inquire.

[GMJim]

Scott
Thanks for the thorough explanation. Our original Blackjack was tested and didn't leak but over time as design changed to improve shift feel we started getting feed back of fluid weeping up through the shifter. Our re-engineered design incorporates a seal that will hold up even when power washed from the gear below. Anybody who owns one of the affected shifters can call me to discuss a replacement.
Jim Goodlad

Hurst Driveline Conversions
www.hurst-drivelines.com.
760-859-6635 Tech Department
[email protected]
"Specializing in Tremec TKO & T56 Magnum overdrive conversion kits".
#1 Tremec Elite Distributor!
#1 In Customer Service and Support!

[parsonsj]

In the rear mounting position neither shifter leak, they just weep a little. That wasn't my observation. I had to stop by the drug store and buy maxi-pads to keep the car from pouring fluid all over the exhaust with the shifter in the rear position. And that was with a seal on the bottom. (one generation newer than the WL pictures above).

I'm hearing there is a newer/better seal on the way for the White Lightning, which would be their 3rd seal design trying to fix this problem.

[chr2002ca]

I had to stop by the drug store and buy maxi-pads to keep the car from pouring fluid all over the exhaust with the shifter in the rear position.

Most creative explanation for standing at the checkout line with maxi-pads that I've seen yet. :)

[Sieg]

Scott
Thanks for the thorough explanation. Our original Blackjack was tested and didn't leak but over time as design changed to improve shift feel we started getting feed back of fluid weeping up through the shifter. Our re-engineered design incorporates a seal that will hold up even when power washed from the gear below. Anybody who owns one of the affected shifters can call me to discuss a replacement.
Jim Goodlad

Hurst Driveline Conversions
www.hurst-drivelines.com.
760-859-6635 Tech Department
[email protected]
"Specializing in Tremec TKO & T56 Magnum overdrive conversion kits".
#1 Tremec Elite Distributor!
#1 In Customer Service and Support!
Jim!

Welcome to Lat-g! Really glad to see you join the fold. :thumbsup:

Lat-g'rs - Jim and I have had many conversations over the last couple of years, they began with researching my auto to T56 Mag conversion kit options and installation details. In all my years of customer service business he ranks highly in my book as one of the real good guys no matter the industry.

That wasn't my observation. I had to stop by the drug store and buy maxi-pads to keep the car from pouring fluid all over the exhaust with the shifter in the rear position. And that was with a seal on the bottom. (one generation newer than the WL pictures above).

I'm hearing there is a newer/better seal on the way for the White Lightning, which would be their 3rd seal design trying to fix this problem.
Did you use the one's with wings? :D Obviously the level of mechanical fit varies and the seal was basically worthless. Did you fill the trans level to the bottom of the fill plug hole? I've seen T56 specs that call for 4 qts. Mine will only take 3.4 qts. on level ground with 2.5* drivetrain angle.

Most creative explanation for standing at the checkout line with maxi-pads that I've seen yet. :)
Very Macgyverish! :D

[carbuff]

Jim,

I also welcome you to the site. Already great to have manufacturer representatives here to help us out!

Regarding my question below, any insight?

I unfortunately read somewhere that they don't sell them independently though, only as part of a kit. Do you know if that is true or not?

Thanx!

[69znc]

Are the leaking issues isolated to the T56 WL or is the same problem occurring in the WL for the TKO-600?

[Sieg]

Are the leaking issues isolated to the T56 WL or is the same problem occurring in the WL for the TKO-600?
To the best of my knowledge T56 based issues, associated with the shifter when mounted in the forward position being located over the gear. It's my understanding the original shifters where designed for TKO's then they adapted the design to the T56 without adding proper internal sealing. In the rear position they weep, in the forward position they cry. :D

T56 Magnum:
http://sieg.smugmug.com/Cars/Hurst-Blackjack-Shifter/i-cxPpSsr/0/L/IMG_3685-L.jpg

I don't think the WL or Hurst are a problem on the TKO, but they may weep a little as that's how the shifter pivot ball is lubricated.

Hopefully someone with first-hand TKO experience will respond.

[69znc]

Thanks Sieg. I have been running mine for a few months now and have not had an issue. Just did not know if I should anticipate one!

[Roberts68]

Here are a few pics of the White Lightning shifter design progression. Earliest to most recent from left to right:
[/URL]

It is noteworthy that the WL #3 is a fair bit taller than #2 which was taller than #1. This may be insignificant but I was already thinking that my shifter stick is pretty long. When I get to the point that all I have to complain about is placement of the shifter ball I will gladly accept the challenge to correct that issue.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e214/YamaCowboy/Camaro/White%20Lightning%20shifter/photobucket-10559-1363905248242_zps2a3bad8c.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/YamaCowboy/media/Camaro/White%20Lightning%20shifter/photobucket-3565-1363905237592_zps0fa92ad0.jpg.html)

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e214/YamaCowboy/Camaro/White%20Lightning%20shifter/photobucket-3565-1363905237592_zps0fa92ad0.jpg


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e214/YamaCowboy/Camaro/White%20Lightning%20shifter/photobucket-20894-1360244224111_zps5c283fe8.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/YamaCowboy/media/Camaro/White%20Lightning%20shifter/photobucket-20894-1360244224111_zps5c283fe8.jpg.html)
The tear in the boot appears to be from being forced over the ball. It may not have effected the performance of containing fluid but a flaw is a flaw. The use of some sealer or epoxy on this #2 WL made me think it was a little proto-typish as well.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e214/YamaCowboy/Camaro/White%20Lightning%20shifter/photobucket-4453-1363905256424_zps02cc0543.jpg[/URL]
WL #3

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e214/YamaCowboy/Camaro/White%20Lightning%20shifter/photobucket-10588-1363905254116_zpsc4b4925e.jpg
WL #3 with ball articulated


Backstory, When I bought my T56 and specified the White Lightning Shifter as an upgrade Sieg was entrenched with his videography and leakage diagnosis and sharing it with the masses here at Lat-G. Thankfully this led to me being very explicit about my concerns that it could happen to me.

As it turns out "Life happens" and my shifter is brand new in box at the time I learn that AP unveiled a new White Lightning design incorporating a seal. I called to inquire and was offered a swap even though mine had never presented a problem or even been installed.

When #2 shows up it's boot was slightly torn. Apparently from being slid over the ball. When I report this AP states they are meeting with their machinist and going over a reworked baseplate and speccing a different seal. I am told to hang onto the first 2 until the 3rd comes with an RMA shipping label which took about 5 weeks.

I never had an issue with the timeline due to "Life" but I figured it gave me the chance to snap these pics for you all before I returned #1 and #2. This thread seems like the right place to share them now. I really am impressed with the current version and in evaluating it's construction do not see how fluid could make it up and out of there.

69znc, do you recall what version your WL looked like?.. or when did you take delivery?

[parsonsj]

I tried 3 different copies of WL #2. No luck with any of them. All leaked badly.

WL #3 looks promising. I'll be snagging one right now. Thanks for the post!

[spooty]

I am sure that they will get the sealing modifications eventually. Its never good to leave development in the customers hands. Even if it is just an oversite.
BTW
in an earlier post I found this:

compounded by an internal case pressure of up to 10 psi

Neither the TKO nor the Magnum units hold pressure. They have breather elements. If you have internal pressure, you have a plugged breather.

[Sieg]

I am sure that they will get the sealing modifications eventually. Its never good to leave development in the customers hands. Even if it is just an oversite.
BTW
in an earlier post I found this:

compounded by an internal case pressure of up to 10 psi

Neither the TKO nor the Magnum units hold pressure. They have breather elements. If you have internal pressure, you have a plugged breather.

I believe the vent check valve on the T56 vent has a psi value. It's my understanding that a certain amount of pressure is required for seals to function properly.

[spooty]

While its true the newest breathers have a spring-loading and can hold a small pressure....it is quite small and certainly well below 10 psi.
The spring loading is there to avoid splash- entry and not for seal function.

[Sieg]

While its true the newest breathers have a spring-loading and can hold a small pressure....it is quite small and certainly well below 10 psi.
The spring loading is there to avoid splash- entry and not for seal function.6-7 psi was what the Tremec tech advisor told me.

[dontlifttoshift]

What shifter doesn't leak?

Anybody else had problems with the factory tremec shifter?

[parsonsj]

The latest design White Lightning shifter (from American Powertrain) doesn't leak.

The first several iterations did.

The factory shifter rattles, rather badly, no matter how much I shim it.

[dontlifttoshift]

White lighting is confirmed dry....even on track?

[parsonsj]

Dry as a bone in my customer's car. He's had several months with it now with perfect results... but he doesn't go to the track.

Edit: the earlier ones seemed to leak only in high RPM conditions, and I tested the latest one (hard) in that sort of situation. The new seal sure looks impressive.

[Roberts68]

Donny, did you see my post #16 with the pictures of the WL generations I had in my possession for awhile?

John, can you confirm if the one in your customers car looks like that third one? From memory I mean, I do not intend for it to sound like I would ask you to look at it.

Thanks,

Robert

[GMJim]

Jim,

I also welcome you to the site. Already great to have manufacturer representatives here to help us out!

Regarding my question below, any insight?



Thanx!


Sorry for the loooooong delay getting to this thread. I've been busy with new projects.

Hurst Driveline DOES sell parts individually and ships them FREE. Some parts that are contained within an assembly are not available separately unless you have the assembly and it has a broken or worn out part. An example would be if you want a hydraulic master cylinder mounting bracket that is normally sold as a kit and you need a new bracket to replace one for what ever reason we would sell this to you without question. If you want to purchase just the bracket and don't have our hyd kit we don't sell the bracket separately. Reason being it won't fit most other hydraulic master cylinders and we wind up getting it back for a refund. If anybody has any questions please contact me. I'll be happy to help you with what you need.
Jim

[parsonsj]

John, can you confirm if the one in your customers car looks like that third one? Yes, that's the one. I've installed it in two customers' cars now, though only one is on the road so far.

[Vegas69]

I still can't believe these manufacturers make parts and don't test them. It's beyond me....

[TheJDMan]

Mr Goodlad,
I currently have a T56 Magnum with the stock Tremec shifter and I'm interested in upgrading to the Hurst Blackjack shifter. But I don't see any reference to an individual part number for the just the shifter. My question is, is the Blackjack shifter available separately or is it only sold with a kit? If the shifter is available can you tell me what part number I would need to order?


Steve

[jwad355]

I had the third version installed in the forward position and it leaked like a mofo! Got in touch with APT and they admitted there was a problem and sent me the new version IV (they were really good about it even tho I live in Australia) I have now installed the new one (this time in the rear position) Drove for around an hour and had zero leak. I did take photo's to show what the new seal looks like but I lost my phone:( an easy way to tell is that the new seal is a more square/rectangular shape and it covers the shoulder on the ball, where the other round seal did not. Hope that helps, can't do much more without the pics

[Roberts68]

I had the third version installed in the forward position and it leaked like a mofo! Got in touch with APT and they admitted there was a problem and sent me the new version IV (they were really good about it even tho I live in Australia) I have now installed the new one (this time in the rear position) Drove for around an hour and had zero leak. I did take photo's to show what the new seal looks like but I lost my phone:( an easy way to tell is that the new seal is a more square/rectangular shape and it covers the shoulder on the ball, where the other round seal did not. Hope that helps, can't do much more without the pics


Did you see the pictures I posted back in post 16? Here is a closeup reposted of what I believed to be #3's underbelly. Was yours different from this?


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e214/YamaCowboy/Camaro/White%20Lightning%20shifter/photobucket-4453-1363905256424_zps02cc0543.jpg
WL #3.

[jwad355]

Yep, how I described it!

[Tuske427]

ok, reviving a 3 year old thread here. After 6100 miles my T56 magnum shifter is leaking (mounted in the rear position) so I need to fix this.

1- Are the two aforementioned shifters my only option, or has something else come along over the past few years?

2- Is there a consensus on which is the better shifter- the WL or the Hurst? I really don't care about individual spring tuning adjustment, I just want a shifter that works well and doesn't leak.

Thanks!

[Tony V]

Hey i'm in the same boat although using the front shifter position. Three different gasket replacements and all failed with 50 miles. Unfortunately it forces me to redo my tunnel to gain access and replace the entire shifter. So any one with success on the T56 magnum forward position i'm all ears.....

[randy]

Any update on this? Any more feedback from those running this shifter? Does the shifts feel a lot shorter?