Warning do not buy Stainless Works big block headers

[8hg383]

Been a member of this site for while now but have just been happy looking at the great cars and ideas people have.
Unfortunitly my first post is to let people no of the poor product and customer service i have received from Paul at Stainless Works.
I am building a 1969 Camaro here in Australia and ordered a set of big block headers to suit my car.
They will not fit as they are hard against the steering box and idler arm.
Paul has said send them back but i will have to pay for shipping $400.
Unfortuitly i dented a couple of pipes to try and get them to fit as i didnt want the hassle in sending them back but its to the point now that they will not fit no matter how much i dent them so now Paul want take them back.
I now have to get them cut up and pipes moved the LH header has to be made again which here in Australia is going to cost at least $1000. I have asked Paul if we can come to some sort of compromise but he is not interested saying that they should fit they dont not even close to fitting.
So to cut a long story short think again before buying SW headers i am sure there is better headers out there and diffintley better service the headers will now i owe me at least $3000 thanks Stainless Works.

[camcojb]

Been a member of this site for while now but have just been happy looking at the great cars and ideas people have.
Unfortunitly my first post is to let people no of the poor product and customer service i have received from Paul at Stainless Works.
I am building a 1969 Camaro here in Australia and ordered a set of big block headers to suit my car.
They will not fit as they are hard against the steering box and idler arm.
Paul has said send them back but i will have to pay for shipping $400.
Unfortuitly i dented a couple of pipes to try and get them to fit as i didnt want the hassle in sending them back but its to the point now that they will not fit no matter how much i dent them so now Paul want take them back.
I now have to get them cut up and pipes moved the LH header has to be made again which here in Australia is going to cost at least $1000. I have asked Paul if we can come to some sort of compromise but he is not interested saying that they should fit they dont not even close to fitting.
So to cut a long story short think again before buying SW headers i am sure there is better headers out there and diffintley better service the headers will now i owe me at least $3000 thanks Stainless Works.
Sounds like you have the wrong frame mounts. Pretty common issue. The correct big block frame pads move the engine over 1/2"+ to the passenger side, and the frame pad is taller on the drivers side; this gains the clearance needed to clear the steering box with the wider big block. Many people do not have the correct frame pads and since most headers were made off a real big block car with the correct big block frame mounts they don't fit with the engine centered in the chassis like a small block.

This happens with most headers, other than the few like Lemons who actually make headers specifically for a big block in the small block location. Here's a pic and some more info:

http://www.camaros.org/engine.shtml#EngineMounting

[clill]

I'm with Jody on this. It sounds like you have smallblock frame mounts. That is where forums like these come in very handy. If you had asked here we probably could have helped you before the headers got messed up. I have had no problems with their headers. Can you post pics ? Even the trans crossmember is different on a big block car.

[coolwelder62]

If you find out that you have the wrong frame stand's,the ding's can be fixed.Build some flange & collector block off plate's,then put a valve stem in the collector.Heat the dinged area to a light dall red,then fill the capped header tube with no more than about 60PSI of air pressure at first.The dent should slowly push it's way out.After it's cooled start using scotch brite to work out the discrolored area.I've fixed many car and motorcycle header's this way.Just take your time and work slowly.:thumbsup:

[Ron in SoCal]

I have a couple of brand new BB frame stands you can have if you determine you have the wrong ones.

You pay shipping, haha...

[chr2002ca]

Sounds like you have the wrong frame mounts. Pretty common issue. The correct big block frame pads move the engine over 1/2"+ to the passenger side, and the frame pad is taller on the drivers side; this gains the clearance needed to clear the steering box with the wider big block. Many people do not have the correct frame pads and since most headers were made off a real big block car with the correct big block frame mounts they don't fit with the engine centered in the chassis like a small block.

This happens with most headers, other than the few like Lemons who actually make headers specifically for a big block in the small block location. Here's a pic and some more info:

http://www.camaros.org/engine.shtml#EngineMounting

Not necessarily true. I have NOS big block frame stands for my 69 that shift the engine to the passenger side properly and I still had to dimple my Hedmans and would've had to dimple a set of Hookers to fit near the steering box. If the #5 header tube does not loop over the #7 tube, then the #5 tube and possibly #7 tube are probably going to hit a power steering gear box no matter how correct the frame stands are. I've seen people place shims under the drivers side frame stands to create extra clearance. Some power steering boxes stick out more than others also. I had to rework my #7 tube when I changed to a different ps box.

Additionally, he said the headers are hitting his idler arm also, so shifting the engine more to the passenger side would make this worse. I saw a thread where a guy had the same problem with his Lemons and had to send that side back to get reworked slightly.

It's a difficult fit for any header manufacturer and it's a crappy situation for the original poster because of how pricey the stainless headers are and how pricey it is to return them to have them corrected.

[Sieg]

If you find out that you have the wrong frame stand's, the ding's can be fixed. Build some flange & collector block off plates, then put a valve stem in the collector. Heat the dinged area to a light dull red, then fill the capped header tube with no more than about 60PSI of air pressure at first. The dent should slowly push it's way out. After it's cooled start using scotch brite to work out the discolored area. I've fixed many car and motorcycle header's this way. Just take your time and work slowly. :thumbsup:

This is Bomb Making 101, but it is effective, just be careful. The heat causes an increase in psi..........so baby steps.

I know more than one motorcycle friend thats launched a plug and put a hole in a garage wall and one window.......and a couple pairs of knickers. :D

[camcojb]

Not necessarily true. I have NOS big block frame stands for my 69 that shift the engine to the passenger side properly and I still had to dimple my Hedmans and would've had to dimple a set of Hookers to fit near the steering box. If the #5 header tube does not loop over the #7 tube, then the #5 tube and possibly #7 tube are probably going to hit a power steering gear box no matter how correct the frame stands are. I've seen people place shims under the drivers side frame stands to create extra clearance. Some power steering boxes stick out more than others also. I had to rework my #7 tube when I changed to a different ps box.

Additionally, he said the headers are hitting his idler arm also, so shifting the engine more to the passenger side would make this worse. I saw a thread where a guy had the same problem with his Lemons and had to send that side back to get reworked slightly.

It's a difficult fit for any header manufacture. It's a crappy situation for the original poster because of how pricey the stainless headers are and how pricey it is to return them to have them corrected.
I understand that not all headers fit correctly, but if he has different frame pads than what the manufacturer used in their header design he has little chance of them fitting without modding them. My Hookers fit perfectly (although tight) on my 69 Camaro with the correct GM big block frame pads.

[chr2002ca]

My Hookers fit perfectly (although tight) on my 69 Camaro with the correct GM big block frame pads.

Congratulations. You're one of the few! I'm jealous. :) Hooker makes 3 or 4 different models(design, primary tube sizes) each with completely different fitments and issues. I tried Hooker 2205's earlier this year and they fit very poorly and the craftsmanship was just horrible and I sent them back to Summit and decided to just re-work my Hedmans. I read from others that other models of Hookers(that have the #5 tube loop over the #7 tube) had no issues with fitment at the steering box, but had severe issues with it hitting their road racing oil pan or that they hung too low or hit somewhere else, so I didn't even want to try those. I've also heard that ordering the same model of headers twice from Hooker could get you 2 different fitments depending on how the guy building them was feeling that day.

It's simply a role of the dice. Even the priciest headers sometimes don't fit. I went to a physically smaller power steering box and it actually fit worse due to how certain areas stick out more than others. It's difficult/impossible for header manufacturers to account for something like that.

If I was to recommend any header, I'd have to go with Lemons also. They seem to have the least amount of fitment issues and most of time fit perfectly out of the box.

[8hg383]

I have got the big block mounts on they are Chris Alston big block engine and frame mounts i have measured them and comparied them with standard big block mounts and there are the same height.
I checked all that before even contacting SW as i wanted to be 100% sure i was doing the right thing befor blamming someone else.
I think they are to suit steering rack vehicle not box as there are that far away from getting them to fit.
The thing is they are hard against the box and idler arm so moving the motor left or right will not work nor will moving the motor up as the number one pipe is hard against the steering box body from the top of the box to the bottom.
All advice is appreciated.

[chr2002ca]

I understand that not all headers fit correctly, but if he has different frame pads than what the manufacturer used in their header design he has little chance of them fitting without modding them. My Hookers fit perfectly (although tight) on my 69 Camaro with the correct GM big block frame pads.

I 100% agree. I was just saying that he might have the correct frame stands and his headers still might not fit. Of course, if he has the wrong frame stands for a 69 Camaro BBC, then it can't be the manufacturer's fault.

We're on the same page. :thumbsup:

[8hg383]

Some pics.

[clill]

Is that a GM subframe or Alston ?

[coolwelder62]

This is Bomb Making 101, but it is effective, just be careful. The heat causes an increase in psi..........so baby steps.

I know more than one motorcycle friend thats launched a plug and put a hole in a garage wall and one window.......and a couple pairs of knickers. :DNO Bomb here if you follow my INSTRUCTION's.

[Sieg]

NO Bomb here if you follow my INSTRUCTION's.
Understood Scotty, just attempting to reinforce your instructions. :thumbsup:

[camcojb]

I have got the big block mounts on they are Chris Alston big block engine and frame mounts i have measured them and comparied them with standard big block mounts and there are the same height.
I checked all that before even contacting SW as i wanted to be 100% sure i was doing the right thing befor blamming someone else.
I think they are to suit steering rack vehicle not box as there are that far away from getting them to fit.
The thing is they are hard against the box and idler arm so moving the motor left or right will not work nor will moving the motor up as the number one pipe is hard against the steering box body from the top of the box to the bottom.
All advice is appreciated.
What cylinder heads do you have? And by big block mounts, you have Chassisworks frame pads and they measured the same as GM big block frame pads? I'm speaking of the frame pads themselves, not the motor mounts.

[chr2002ca]

I believe I see at least part of the problem in the photos(besides the fact that it's not a stock subframe which adds a big variable). That's not a stock power steering box, and it's the same model I just switched to from a larger/heavier model/series(my previous one was from AGR). The one he has I believe is the '600 series' model that's smaller and lighter than other quick-ratio PS steering boxes, but also unfortunately makes that common fitment issue against the #5 tube even worse. Like I mentioned earlier, it's specific to headers designed like his(and mine) where all tubes just go immediately downward instead of the #5 tube looping over the #7 tube. That particular series of power steering box just sticks out like that in that exact area against the #5 tube even worse than other quick-ratio boxes. The other quick-ratio boxes can also have a clearance problem right there, but the 600 series is even a little worse. It's a situation that's not fair to header manufacturers and sucks for both parties really. Now, the passenger side header hitting on the idler arm is another issue in itself that I won't comment on, and if other tubes on the drivers side are hitting, there's not much you can do for clearancing that doesn't involve modification to the header.

For that #5 tube issue, if you change that particular bolt on the steering box that is hitting the header to a button head bolt, and you do a little light grinding(flap disk) in that area of the steering box cover to add some additional clearance, you should be okay. You could wrap a little titanium header/heat wrap around that area of that tube if you're worried about heat transfer(I did just to be safe). The engine will rotate upwards in that area when you hit the gas, so clearance will be okay at WOT. I have the exact same situation with my headers, but mine's even worse than his. I had to do some "clearancing" and also had to dimple my #5 tube slightly. My #7 tube was really bad and I had to cut a section of it out completely and add a curve to it. All because of the "smaller"(in all the wrong places) steering box. His #7 tube looks like a much better design than mine.

[camcojb]

I believe I see at least part of the problem in the photos(besides the fact that it's not a stock subframe which adds a big variable). That's not a stock power steering box, and it's the same model I just switched to from a larger/heavier model/series(my previous one was from AGR). The one he has I believe is the '600 series' model that's smaller and lighter than other quick-ratio PS steering boxes, but also unfortunately makes that common fitment issue against the #5 tube even worse. Like I mentioned earlier, it's specific to headers designed like his(and mine) where all tubes just go immediately downward instead of the #5 tube looping over the #7 tube. That particular series of power steering box just sticks out like that in that exact area against the #5 tube even worse than other quick-ratio boxes. The other quick-ratio boxes can also have a clearance problem right there, but the 600 series is even a little worse. It's a situation that's not fair to header manufacturers and sucks for both parties really. Now, the passenger side header hitting on the idler arm is another issue in itself that I won't comment on, and if other tubes on the drivers side are hitting, there's not much you can do for clearancing that doesn't involve modification to the header.

For that #5 tube issue, if you change that particular bolt on the steering box that is hitting the header to a button head bolt, and you do a little light grinding(flap disk) in that area of the steering box cover to add some additional clearance, you should be okay. You could wrap a little titanium header/heat wrap around that area of that tube if you're worried about heat transfer(I did just to be safe). The engine will rotate upwards in that area when you hit the gas, so clearance will be okay at WOT. I have the exact same situation with my headers, but mine's even worse than his. I had to do some "clearancing" and also had to dimple my #5 tube slightly. My #7 tube was really bad and I had to cut a section of it out completely and add a curve to it. All because of the "smaller"(in all the wrong places) steering box. His #7 tube looks like a much better design than mine.
I thought it was a stock subframe with a DSE Speed 3 kit, hard to tell. The steering box being changed is an issue as you said as it has less clearance in that tube area than the stock one. If he has aftermarket heads (or some GM Performance heads), many of those have raised exhaust ports, another potential issue, especially with the steering box, maybe the idler arm depending on how the tubes are run.

[chr2002ca]

I thought it was a stock subframe with a DSE Speed 3 kit, hard to tell. The steering box being changed is an issue as you said as it has less clearance in that tube area than the stock one. If he has aftermarket heads (or some GM Performance heads), many of those have raised exhaust ports, another potential issue, especially with the idler arm and steering box.

Yes, you could be right about the frame. I can't tell either. I assumed Chris Alston subframe when he mention the mounts and I saw the pic.

[8hg383]

Thanks for all the replies its good to hear from people with similar issues.
Its a stock subframe with a DSE front suspension kit and steering box.
The heads are Dart which run a 300th raised port
All this information was told when ordering the headers. The number1 tube hits hard against the box from the top all the way down the body and also hits the top control arm bolt.
I did change the steering box top bolts to mushroom head but made little difference.Not sure weather you can see in the pic but the header isnt even flush on the head yet it stiil needs to be rotated up which i cant do as its against the box and no gasket on yet either.On the other side number 1 tube is hard against idler arm rubber seal.

[8hg383]

Frame mounts and engine mounts are big block Chris Alston

[camcojb]

There's a lot of things about your car that aren't stock. The steering box is bigger in the area of that tube as was pointed out, and the raised ports pull the headers up and out, probably not helping either. I am not sure about the Chassisworks mounts as being exact copies of GM big block mounts, so that may or may not be an issue. Is the passenger side frame mount taller? Can't tell for sure. If you look at the pic in the link I left in post #2 you'll see the drivers side is noticeably taller than the passenger side. Your pic doesn't look like that much of a difference, actually looks like the same height. If the engine is raised on the drivers side it takes the tube off the steering box, or at least lessens it. It also pulls the passenger side away from the idler arm.

If SW was told about the raised posts, to me that's a big part of the problems on the drivers side. The passenger side with the idler issue, don't think being a little lower and closer (non-raised ports) would clear the boot. I'm still thinking those frame pads are wrong.

[Sieg]

How much vertical clearance do you have in the fire wall and tunnel area?

[GregWeld]

I once tried to explain hot rodding as a series of "stack up errors"... a little here - a little there and no you've got to hot rod about 6 parts to make one of them work...

I always appreciate the efforts of factory (OEM) engineers more - after building a hot rod...

[camcojb]

I once tried to explain hot rodding as a series of "stack up errors"... a little here - a little there and no you've got to hot rod about 6 parts to make one of them work...

I always appreciate the efforts of factory (OEM) engineers more - after building a hot rod...
Very true Greg. :thumbsup:

[8hg383]

There's a lot of things about your car that aren't stock. The steering box is bigger in the area of that tube as was pointed out, and the raised ports pull the headers up and out, probably not helping either. I am not sure about the Chassisworks mounts as being exact copies of GM big block mounts, so that may or may not be an issue. Is the passenger side frame mount taller? Can't tell for sure. If you look at the pic in the link I left in post #2 you'll see the drivers side is noticeably taller than the passenger side. Your pic doesn't look like that much of a difference, actually looks like the same height. If the engine is raised on the drivers side it takes the tube off the steering box, or at least lessens it. It also pulls the passenger side away from the idler arm.

If SW was told about the raised posts, to me that's a big part of the problems on the drivers side. The passenger side with the idler issue, don't think being a little lower and closer (non-raised ports) would clear the boot. I'm still thinking those frame pads are wrong.

The drivers side is definetly taller then the passenger side i did measure from the chassis to the bolt hole on the mounts and compared it to a standard big block mounts and they are the same height as standard mounts.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

If you have the room have a custom set of frame pads made. It will be cheaper than modifing those headers or swapping out to a rack kit.

[8hg383]

Thanks for the idea Vince.
The problem is i have a custom flat firewall and i have built it around the height of the engine as it is now and with the mounts i have.
The car is in the exhaust shop now getting the headers cut up and made to fit i just have to suck it up and open my wallet and move on from a bad experience.