DSE vs. SpeedTech Performance. . .

[atomicjoe23]

Has anyone seen a no BS real comparison between these two companies products???

Like DSE's A-arm set-up vs. SpeedTech's A-arm set-up, or a direct, real world (same car/driver, same tires, same rear suspension so that all you are comparing are the differences between the companies front end packages) comparison between the two subframes (or three now that there is the ExtremeR subframe SpeedTech)?

It's easy to look at the pictures and read the text, but trying to figure out which subframe or suspension set-up you want is frustrating if you can't compare apples to apples. . .

. . .just wondering if anyone knows if such a test has been done.

Thanks!

[98ssnova]

Super chevy online they have tested them countless times. Mari Pozzi as the driver. Also search this forum alot of info here comparing the 2. If you are really looking for a hardcover race set-up contact Ron Sutton he specializes in that stuff. Either one can go wrong DSE or Speed Tech are bad ass and have a great industry rep.

[atomicjoe23]

If you are really looking for a hardcover race set-up contact Ron Sutton he specializes in that stuff.

I've read (and re-read. . .and am currently re-reading again) his threads on handling and suspension. . .

. . .he helped SpeedTech Performance with the new ExtremeR subframe. . .

[badazz81z28]

I have Detroit Speed and have in person seen Speed Tech products to include the new subframes...bottom line not apples to apples comparison. Speed Tech does have some advantages to include price, but DSE has a larger product line to compliment their set-ups.

[Blake Foster]

I have Detroit Speed and have in person seen Speed Tech products to include the new subframes...bottom line not apples to apples comparison. Speed Tech does have some advantages to include price, but DSE has a larger product line to compliment their set-ups.

I would agree at this time not an Apples comparison. if you look at the numbers on paper the new ExtReme subframe is a lot more aggressive, adjustable and uses a much better Rack. (all be it at less profit for Speedtech)

I would just want to question you on that statement? the part about "DSE having more product to compliment their set up."

Speedtech has EVERYTHING you could need including some parts that DSE does not have like oil pans,

I will let you know that we are about to also release a new
ExtReme Torque arm front mount that also integrates a drive shaft loop and subframe connectors. this will be a very good upgrade that really no one else has.

thanks for the props as well :cheers:

[atomicjoe23]

I would just want to question you on that statement? the part about "DSE having more product to compliment their set up."

I was curious about this also. . .I know that SpeedTech doesn't have leaf spring parts (first gen F-bodies), but that is one of the only things I have noticed they don't have. I also noticed the standard UCA's don't have adjustable caster inserts like the DSE UCA's have, but the new ExtReme arms seem to address that.

One thing that I do like about SpeedTech vs. DSE is that SpeedTech offers the ATS spindles as a stand alone purchase. . .the only way you can purchase the DSE spindle is as part of a subframe purchase, but the DSE UCA's have the adjustable caster inserts while the SpeedTech UCA's you can purchase (without buying the ExtReme subframe. . .as of right now anyway) don't have caster inserts.

I'm leaning towards SpeedTech's ExtReme subframe as of right now (although I probably won't be purchasing a subframe until this winter or maybe next winter at the latest).

[badazz81z28]

I would agree at this time not an Apples comparison. if you look at the numbers on paper the new ExtReme subframe is a lot more aggressive, adjustable and uses a much better Rack. (all be it at less profit for Speedtech)

I would just want to question you on that statement? the part about "DSE having more product to compliment their set up."

Speedtech has EVERYTHING you could need including some parts that DSE does not have like oil pans,

I will let you know that we are about to also release a new
ExtReme Torque arm front mount that also integrates a drive shaft loop and subframe connectors. this will be a very good upgrade that really no one else has.

thanks for the props as well :cheers:


You can practically build a car out of a DSE catalog. They offer everything from sub-frame bushings, PS hoses, headers, mini-tubs, rearends, etc.

DSE's biggest downfall is price. The best thing going for them is the proven track record. The cars perform very well.

I would have bought the Speed Tech 2nd Gen frame, but at the time there was no solid release date. Its all the little preferences here and there.

[atomicjoe23]

I forgot about the mini-tubs. . .that's on my short list. . .

. . .I also forgot about all the body stuff (core closeout, hood latch and receptacle, firewall closeouts, etc. . . .

[Blake Foster]

[QUOTE=badazz81z28;629655]You can practically build a car out of a DSE catalog. They offer everything from sub-frame bushings, PS hoses, headers, mini-tubs, rearends, etc.

Same here, I can sell you almost any part you will need, Engines Transmissions, brake line kits, headers, exhaust parts, Cooling systems, front drives, brakes , wheels, tires, fuel systems, and they are all the parts we USE in our builds so we know what fits and works together as well.

don't tell everyone but I can even sell the DSE mini tubs

[atomicjoe23]

I haven't talked with DSE, but I can say the customer service at SpeedTech (at least from my experience) has been FANTASTIC!!!

[hifi875]

both are great companies. wouldn't hesitate to buy from either and have used both of their parts.

[badazz81z28]

I haven't talked with DSE, but I can say the customer service at SpeedTech (at least from my experience) has been FANTASTIC!!!

Same at DSE. Although recently it has slumped for me. Trying to get info out of them for a wheel on these wheels and not much help.

[badazz81z28]

[QUOTE=badazz81z28;629655]You can practically build a car out of a DSE catalog. They offer everything from sub-frame bushings, PS hoses, headers, mini-tubs, rearends, etc.

Same here, I can sell you almost any part you will need, Engines Transmissions, brake line kits, headers, exhaust parts, Cooling systems, front drives, brakes , wheels, tires, fuel systems, and they are all the parts we USE in our builds so we know what fits and works together as well.

don't tell everyone but I can even sell the DSE mini tubs

Blake, I just looked at the website and even if you do have it, its not listed. Usually I just assume you don't have something if its not listed. I don't see things like tubs, headers, x-members etc listed under the 70-81 Camaro tab.

PM coming

[Vega$69]

You can get lots of parts from lots of different people.

Depends to some extent what your budget is and more importantly how you intend to use the car.

To try to say which is the better subframe. Well if you just street cruising neither one in better then an upgraded stock. If you're full on Optima Street Challenge then that's another story.

When looking at race results it does not appear that any one manufacturer is dominating.

I have Speedtech front and DSE Quadralink rear. Works perfect for me.

[badazz81z28]

You can get lots of parts from lots of different people.

Depends to some extent what your budget is and more importantly how you intend to use the car.

To try to say which is the better subframe. Well if you just street cruising neither one in better then an upgraded stock. If you're full on Optima Street Challenge then that's another story.

When looking at race results it does not appear that any one manufacturer is dominating.

I have Speedtech front and DSE Quadralink rear. Works perfect for me.

Depends on what you compare. If you look at overall results, the newer cars are dominating lol.

But comparing Sec Gen Camaros/Firebird with different brand parts. In that case DSE is dominating on the track. Of course you cant compare overall winners because more than the suspension brand parts plays a role.

[Blake Foster]

[QUOTE=Blake Foster;629659]

Blake, I just looked at the website and even if you do have it, its not listed. Usually I just assume you don't have something if its not listed. I don't see things like tubs, headers, x-members etc listed under the 70-81 Camaro tab.

PM coming

PM received.

I think you need glasses :computer: (I know I do)
lol
We show a lot of different parts but they are maybe Generic as there are sometimes so many options that we really need to talk about it to get the right stuff, rather than having one Fuel tank listed for example we show that we have fuel tanks, but with all the engine and pump options I would rather you call us to figure it out than have you chose from 2 we may have on the site and then not be 100% happy with what you got.

Make sense?

Same with Engines and wheels WAY TOO MANY OPTIONS to list 3 on the site

[98ssnova]

I would agree at this time not an Apples comparison. if you look at the numbers on paper the new ExtReme subframe is a lot more aggressive, adjustable and uses a much better Rack. (all be it at less profit for Speedtech)

I would just want to question you on that statement? the part about "DSE having more product to compliment their set up."

Speedtech has EVERYTHING you could need including some parts that DSE does not have like oil pans,

I will let you know that we are about to also release a new
ExtReme Torque arm front mount that also integrates a drive shaft loop and subframe connectors. this will be a very good upgrade that really no one else has.

thanks for the props as well :cheers:

what is this torque arm upgrade.....

[Blake Foster]

This is the newest addition to the ExtReme Product line,
Right now it is for 67-69 Camaros. It will be cut into the floor under the seat pan (you will need to remove the seat pan) fit mid way into the tunnel and full width rocker to rocker. Then the subframe connectors fit 1/2 way into the floor pan and into the rear spring perch location. The torque arm mount will be removable and that part will form a drive shaft loop as well. we will have a version that does not have a torque arm mount if you are just wanting to retrofit an existing rear suspension. it will not impede the exhaust any more than the trans X member.
Still working out final pricing and install instructions.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/ExtReme%20Torque%20Arm%20X%20Member_zpsilrbqp0i.jp g (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/killer72nova/media/ExtReme%20Torque%20Arm%20X%20Member_zpsilrbqp0i.jp g.html)

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/ExtReme%20Torque%20Arm%20X%20Member_zpsilrbqp0i.jp g

[TheJDMan]

For me the decision to go with DSE over Speedtech came down to front steer vs rear steer. At the time I installed my subframe DSE was the only front steer available. Today of course Speedtech has their new extreme subframe with front steer. I also like the DSE hydroformed frame rails which is unique in the aftermarket.

[atomicjoe23]

This is the newest addition to the ExtReme Product line,
Right now it is for 67-69 Camaros. It will be cut into the floor under the seat pan (you will need to remove the seat pan) fit mid way into the tunnel and full width rocker to rocker. Then the subframe connectors fit 1/2 way into the floor pan and into the rear spring perch location. The torque arm mount will be removable and that part will form a drive shaft loop as well. we will have a version that does not have a torque arm mount if you are just wanting to retrofit an existing rear suspension. it will not impede the exhaust any more than the trans X member.
Still working out final pricing and install instructions.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/ExtReme%20Torque%20Arm%20X%20Member_zpsilrbqp0i.jp g (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/killer72nova/media/ExtReme%20Torque%20Arm%20X%20Member_zpsilrbqp0i.jp g.html)

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/ExtReme%20Torque%20Arm%20X%20Member_zpsilrbqp0i.jp g

I like that. . .I had been leaning towards designing and building an offset, de-coupled 3-link rear suspension using a Watt's linkage, but I may change my mind and go with a torque arm now. . .

[Blake Foster]

I like that. . .I had been leaning towards designing and building an offset, de-coupled 3-link rear suspension using a Watt's linkage, but I may change my mind and go with a torque arm now. . .

SEE NOW your THINKING!!!

[atomicjoe23]

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff425/killer72nova/ExtReme%20Torque%20Arm%20X%20Member_zpsilrbqp0i.jp g (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/killer72nova/media/ExtReme%20Torque%20Arm%20X%20Member_zpsilrbqp0i.jp g.html)



So is this going to be available as a total ExtReme Rear Torque Arm kit?

Also, is the removable front torque arm mount (that forms part of the driveshaft loop) replace the version in what is now the "standard" rear torque arm suspension?

[98ssnova]

Will this work with the existing set up? I remember you said when the extreme sub released you had no plans of change the torque arm.

[califconstruct]

.

:ohsnap:

That ExtReme Rear Torque Arm looks interesting. a seems a bit involved for my skill level for installation, but nothing Richie can't handle.
Warhawk is looking for a new rear setup hear in the near future. :relax:


.

[JKnight]

I'm no expert on either, but the installation seems similar to the Lateral Dynamics 3-link of old.

[atomicjoe23]

Hey CalifConsruct. . .what's the buggy in the background of your profile pic???

You on Race_Dezert.com???

[Blake Foster]

So is this going to be available as a total ExtReme Rear Torque Arm kit?

Also, is the removable front torque arm mount (that forms part of the driveshaft loop) replace the version in what is now the "standard" rear torque arm suspension?

yes it will replace the existing/current but both will be available.
this is an OPTIONAL front mount with the full width cross member and subframe connectors.

[Blake Foster]

Will this work with the existing set up? I remember you said when the extreme sub released you had no plans of change the torque arm.

Yes in a 67-69 Camaro. not in a Nova YET. the nova floor has different cross braces in it so we need to do a completely different one for that car

we have not changed the torque arm at all we have don some improvements in the material we use it is now made from Domex which is a ballistic resistant material. plus we have added some more mounting plates to the upper rear cross member to allow it to be mounted through the trunk floor for added integrity

[Blake Foster]

.

:ohsnap:

That ExtReme Rear Torque Arm looks interesting. a seems a bit involved for my skill level for installation, but nothing Richie can't handle.
Warhawk is looking for a new rear setup hear in the near future. :relax:


.

Well it is more involved obviously than our current on BUT no more difficult than the DSE subframe connectors just more, it ties the entire floor together in 2 directions and provides better exhaust clearance and a drive shaft loop.

[Ron Sutton]

IMHO ...

The DSE, Art Morrison, Roadster Shop & Speedtech front clips are all well built & include quality components.

After measuring & running calcs on all of them, I'm clear they each have good bump steer & camber gain.

The notable differences (advantages) of the Speedtech eXtreme clips & frames are:
* 100% Ackerman for increased grip on inside front tire.
* A spindle custom designed for this suspension ... not the other way around.
* Roll Center above ground in dynamic conditions ... and in exact optimum location ... for increased front end grip ... and corner entry stability.
* Fits 315 front tires with clearance for 30° of steering.
* Increased caster capacity for optimum tire contact patches on both front tires. (Slugged for 7° to 9° static caster ... plus 0.6°-2.0° caster gain in dive).
* A real racing power steering rack from Sweet ($900) ... with dual power to live forever & excel at turning sticky 315's ... instead of reproduction/remanufactured production car rack from Mavel ($300).
* 3-piece race style front sway bar with Speedway Engineering chromoly bars offering a range of rates from 400# to 1300#.
* Lastly is the option to come with Ridetech or JRI shocks with digressive pistons & my modern secret sauce, high grip valving.


:patriot:

.

[badazz81z28]

Fitting a 315 on that frame is pretty awesome

[TheJDMan]

Fitting a 315 on that frame is pretty awesome

But the trade-off is less header clearance due to the frame rails being located further inboard to allow room for that 315.

[ironworks]

But the trade-off is less header clearance due to the frame rails being located further inboard to allow room for that 315.

I'm sure the frame on the Speedtech is alittle narrower, but the bigger issue is just the header and steering shaft. The Camaro we are doing is tight on the headers with the stock position steering shaft. The frame is just narrower in that area over the DSE sub. With the UCA position of the Speedtech makes it a battle. But that geometry position is the gain in clean slate design.

Granted we have Porto type LT4 headers but it's not much different over the LS headers. Plus the steering column has the electric power assist so that add a few variables.

But doesn't change much at all.

[Blake Foster]

YES the steering and headers are TIGHT. but they do work, we have a couple in the shop right now having everything installed including RedZed, Rogers 69. and it is all working out as planned. the port location on the LT is slightly different from what I have seen also.

We can supply all the parts column, shaft kit, headers that all work together.

[Build-It-Break-it]

Blake can you post up a couple of pics of the steering shaft to header clearance on the extreme subframe?

[gerno]

Blake - I hear you have the 1st get headers done. When can you post up some pics of the 2nd Gen headers fitted up. I spoke to you near X-mas and you seemed to be close to having them ready. Any update? I'm interested to see the overall fitment but mostly the ground clearance since that's a huge issue for 2nd Gen cars.

[Blake Foster]

Blake - I hear you have the 1st get headers done. When can you post up some pics of the 2nd Gen headers fitted up. I spoke to you near X-mas and you seemed to be close to having them ready. Any update? I'm interested to see the overall fitment but mostly the ground clearance since that's a huge issue for 2nd Gen cars.

GROUND CLEARANCE!! Exactly. we decided to do a 3/4 length header for that very reason. in testing Ultimate tells me they are only 10hp down on some of there 3/4 length VS full length. I figured that was acceptable as full length headers that are SMASHED not only look and sound bad but are probably worse the 10hp Plus the customer isn't happy.

I HATE headers that hang down this way you will be able to run a 3" tube as close to the floor as possible the Trans cross member will be the deciding factor but at that point oval tubing would be the answer.

[Blake Foster]

Blake can you post up a couple of pics of the steering shaft to header clearance on the extreme subframe?

Tomorrow!! Rogers is all mocked up and just about finished.

[badazz81z28]

IMHO ...

The DSE, Art Morrison, Roadster Shop & Speedtech front clips are all well built & include quality components.

After measuring & running calcs on all of them, I'm clear they each have good bump steer & camber gain.

The notable differences (advantages) of the Speedtech eXtreme clips & frames are:
* 100% Ackerman for increased grip on inside front tire.
* A spindle custom designed for this suspension ... not the other way around.
* Roll Center above ground in dynamic conditions ... and in exact optimum location ... for increased front end grip ... and corner entry stability.
* Fits 315 front tires with clearance for 30° of steering.
* Increased caster capacity for optimum tire contact patches on both front tires. (Slugged for 7° to 9° static caster ... plus 0.6°-2.0° caster gain iin dive).
* A real racing power steering rack from Sweet ($900) ... with dual power to live forever & excel at turning sticky 315's ... instead of reproduction/remanufactured production car rack from Mavel ($300).
* 3-piece race style front sway bar with Speedway Engineering chromoly bars offering a range of rates from 400# to 1300#.
* Lastly is the option to come with Ridetech or JRI shocks with digressive pistons & my modern secret sauce, high grip valving.


:patriot:

.


Proof is on the pavement, not a sheet of paper. I'm Really excited to see a comparable year/model cars compete to show which handles better. I wouldn't be so quick to say anything negative about C5/C6 spindles or OEM steering racks. If it works, it works. Modern cars especially vettss are kicking butt out there at the autocross

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Proof is on the pavement, not a sheet of paper. I'm Really excited to see a comparable year/model cars compete to show which handles better. I wouldn't be so quick to say anything negative about C5/C6 spindles or OEM steering racks. If it works, it works. Modern cars especially vettss are kicking butt out there at the autocross

Ideally a sheet of paper is where it all starts.

true but just bolting on a system designed well for another chassis and platform does not usually translate very well to all or other platforms. Same goes for racks, just because the "fit" doesn't make them optimum. :stirthepot:

[colorado80439]

I'm sure all application are different, but for my installation, 1st gen w/ LS7, the Speedtech Extreme will require their sheet metal oil pan with remote oil filter and no provisions for a low mount A/C compressor. That would add over $3500 to the build price (adding a front runner, oil pan, remote oil filter). Sure I like the idea of some wider meat up front, but by saving my current front drive low mount A/C compressor system and oil pan set up I can stretch the front and have a wider track.
Disclaimer: Information based on my current knowledge so I could be l afu and would like to be proven incorrect.

[colorado80439]

GROUND CLEARANCE!! Exactly. we decided to do a 3/4 length header for that very reason. in testing Ultimate tells me they are only 10hp down on some of there 3/4 length VS full length. I figured that was acceptable as full length headers that are SMASHED not only look and sound bad but are probably worse the 10hp Plus the customer isn't happy.

I HATE headers that hang down this way you will be able to run a 3" tube as close to the floor as possible the Trans cross member will be the deciding factor but at that point oval tubing would be the answer.

Does the Ultimate LS swept header work with the Speedtech subframe. Not sure what a 3/4 header is?? or who's making them

[Blake Foster]

I'm sure all application are different, but for my installation, 1st gen w/ LS7, the Speedtech Extreme will require their sheet metal oil pan with remote oil filter and no provisions for a low mount A/C compressor. That would add over $3500 to the build price (adding a front runner, oil pan, remote oil filter). Sure I like the idea of some wider meat up front, but by saving my current front drive low mount A/C compressor system and oil pan set up I can stretch the front and have a wider track.
Disclaimer: Information based on my current knowledge so I could be l afu and would like to be proven incorrect.

ACTUALLY KWIK has come up with a new adaptor bracket that WILL ALLOW for a low mount A/C you will need a small Sanden 507 compressor but that is now an option, I would have to confirm if it is available or adaptable to a LS7

[GregWeld]

And info like this -- is EXACTLY why you call SpeedTech! They have the newest hottest subframe on the market... designed by Ron Sutton... that takes the largest tires... that has the best specs for handling AND YOU CAN GET JUST ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE NEEDED TO COMPLETE YOUR PROJECT.

In other words - it's called KNOWLEDGE AND SUPPORT that comes with the sale. Invaluable info when building a project.

[Blake Foster]

Does the Ultimate LS swept header work with the Speedtech subframe. Not sure what a 3/4 header is?? or who's making them

NO, we have used several of their models all of which had interference issues, we have designed a long tube set for the First gen and they are in production now. for the Second Gen we opted to do a 3/4 length header the cars floor sits so low that a full length header would have hung down almost 2" below the frame rail. this way a 3" 45 deg bend will mate up to the collector and will be about flush with the frame rail when finished.
Ultimate Headers is building them, they use 321 material and have some nice cast elbows and flanges,

[Ron Sutton]

Proof is on the pavement, not a sheet of paper. I'm Really excited to see a comparable year/model cars compete to show which handles better. I wouldn't be so quick to say anything negative about C5/C6 spindles or OEM steering racks. If it works, it works. Modern cars especially vettss are kicking butt out there at the autocross

I'm not an debating kind of guy, but didn't want you or anyone to get the wrong impression. The C6 front suspension ... and spindle ... is a good design. (The C7 is a little better) I work with several clients with C5/C6 Corvettes to improve their performance ... as well as tons of clients with C5/C6 based front ends in Muscle cars.

The problem is when a person or shop uses the C6 suspension components in a different car and mounts them in significantly different locations than they were in the C5/C6. These are pivot points for the suspension geometry. So we're not really getting the C6 geometry ... just some of the parts.

I understand why & no one is to be faulted. The challenge for C6 based suspension builders is engine location. In the C5/C6, the engine is behind the rack. For a clip to work in most muscle cars ... the engine has to sit over the rack. Otherwise the car owner would need to cut the firewall & move the engine back 8-10" which is not desired by most customers.

So the rack ... commonly a '97-2004 Mustang rack ... gets mounted several inches lower to be under the engine. To get the bump steer & camber gain optimized ... requires different control arm mounting locations than the C5/C6 ... and this messes up the roll center location. It could be fixed with a custom spindle, but the cost is substantial.

As far as OEM Mustang rack durability goes ... with sticky 275-315 tires in autocross competition ... it is the car owners running them that have had failures & expressed frustration. In designing the new Speedtech front end to run 315s in the same demanding application ... we stepped up the rack to dual power & heavier duty at a cost around 3 times as much. I'm sure everyone understands Speedtech didn't do that because they wanted to spend 3X more. It simply eliminates that problem for Speedtech eXtreme clip buyers.

Best wishes everyone !

:cheers:

[badazz81z28]

How does the DSE frame reflect in your comments? Are you seeing rack issues on their frame or handling issues?

[Vegas69]

Your question was answered.

Many variables come into play. For starters, the power steering pump, cooler, fluid, compound, temperature, etc...

Is a mustang 2 rack made for racing?

I loved my DSE subframe. I think you own one, it's a great piece.

[alongfortheride]

Just a note I have a Speedtech Extreme subframe. I currently have an autocraft oil pan which fits fine on my lsa. I am also running a stock ctsv accessory drive.With low mount ac using the small vintage air compressor

[GregWeld]

This whole discussion reminds me of so many others. Everyone has an opinion. Everyone has a favorite.

The DSE is years old - nothing wrong with it - but it's not much different than discussing C4 vs C5 vs C6 and now the newest C7....

When the C4 came out it was the best thing going... Now? It's still good - but not great. When the C8 comes out - it SHOULD be an improvement over the C7

The SpeedTech ExtReme is the newest - fresh design - best geometry currently available...

There will never be a same model - same horsepower - same configuration - same driver - same day - same track "battle" that will satisfy someone that wants to own a DSE part... Or for that matter, a SpeedTech product. The magazine "tests" all cloak their reviews with BS so they don't offend an advertiser... and in most cases of multiple product tests "many" advertisers.

In the end - a crap driver with great products in a well sorted car... will finish back of the pack. A great driver with a half assed POS will probably be up near the front. I've run with Miata's I can barely keep up with... I've run right past ZR1's (shaking my head).

Do your homework - base a purchase on product, service, delivery, after the sale service, parts combo you intend to use. Then make a choice and build the car accordingly. Drive it and have fun. By the time you're half way thru the process there will be 10 newer products out that make your's look antique.


And the debate continues.... LOL

[Che70velle]

This whole discussion reminds me of so many others. Everyone has an opinion. Everyone has a favorite.

The DSE is years old - nothing wrong with it - but it's not much different than discussing C4 vs C5 vs C6 and now the newest C7....

When the C4 came out it was the best thing going... Now? It's still good - but not great. When the C8 comes out - it SHOULD be an improvement over the C7

The SpeedTech ExtReme is the newest - fresh design - best geometry currently available...

There will never be a same model - same horsepower - same configuration - same driver - same day - same track "battle" that will satisfy someone that wants to own a DSE part... Or for that matter, a SpeedTech product. The magazine "tests" all cloak their reviews with BS so they don't offend an advertiser... and in most cases of multiple product tests "many" advertisers.

In the end - a crap driver with great products in a well sorted car... will finish back of the pack. A great driver with a half assed POS will probably be up near the front. I've run with Miata's I can barely keep up with... I've run right past ZR1's (shaking my head).

Do your homework - base a purchase on product, service, delivery, after the sale service, parts combo you intend to use. Then make a choice and build the car accordingly. Drive it and have fun. By the time you're half way thru the process there will be 10 newer products out that make your's look antique.


And the debate continues.... LOL

This is the most true statement you will ever read on any car forum...Well done Greg!

[Vegas69]

Good points Obe One.

I like something that has been engineered, tested, tried and is true.

Has the Extreme frame been tested extensively?

[Blake Foster]

Good points Obe One.

I like something that has been engineered, tested, tried and is true.

Has the Extreme frame been tested extensively?

WE have been driving the C10 which is virtually identical. We have done a couple auto crosses with it and the Optima event. Extensively??? more is always better, Rogers 69 will be done the transformation in a week and that will also then be tested.
It was tested it ALOT during design, production and a lot of installs so we know the fit is good, the construction is beyond any other that I have seen, most of the moving parts are what we use in thousands of other components .I feel we have addressed some items that had not previously been considered limitations or requirements in the past . I would love to say we are just like an OEM and have been designing and driving this for the last 4 years, that is an advantage DSE has right now for sure. I know there are 4 or 5 guys building cars right now to run this year so it shouldn't be long now.

[Vegas69]

Sounds really positive especially with you and Sutton involved.

[BMR Sales]

In the end - a crap driver with great products in a well sorted car... will finish back of the pack. A great driver with a half assed POS will probably be up near the front. I've run with Miata's I can barely keep up with... I've run right past ZR1's (shaking my head).



Yep!:drive:

[alongfortheride]

http://i65.tinypic.com/2hd5gl1.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/4sk66r.jpg

[Build-It-Break-it]

"Alongfortheride" Who's a/C bracket are you using with which a/C compressor? Everything looks super tight in there.

[Ron Sutton]

Most of my clients, as well as Speedtech's truck, utilize the Drive Junky LS drive system I offer ... which has the A/C mounted up high.

IMHO, it is the Best LS Drive System ...
A. The right water pump we needed, the 2-piece Edelbrock Victor aluminum water pump.
B. A real racing power steering pump from Jones Racing, which I've used for years with great success.
C. A TIG welded aluminum P/S reservoir mounted on the pump ... baffled to prevent slosh & foaming of the power steering fluid.
D. 170 Amp Powermaster Alternator
E. Strong, well designed idler & tensioner mechanisms & pulleys.
F. An ATI Superdamper to protect the crank.
G. Ultra high precision Twin bearings used on all the idlers.

And last but not least ...
H. A Superior design with OVER 180° of belt wrap (contact area) on the power steering pump.

You Autocross? No more belt skip.
Running big front tires? No more pump issues.
Revving your engine to 7000+? No more bearing or component failures.
Have a quality/expensive engine? Protected with a ATI Superdamper.

Want it to still look great? Easy Peasy. You can see the great style, and it's available in:
* Brushed Aluminum
* Polished Aluminum
* Black Hard Anodize over Polished Aluminum

It's a tad more expensive at $2699, but it's got the best quality components, finish & design.


:cheers:

[illmatic96ss]

would love to see the SPEEDTECH c10 with a IRS on the speedtech extreme frame please keep us updated if you guys have this in the works

[alongfortheride]

Small vintage air sanden compressor cbm ac mount and a factory ctsv accessory drive.

[71RS/SS396]

Most of my clients, as well as Speedtech's truck, utilize the Drive Junky LS drive system I offer ... which has the A/C mounted up high.

IMHO, it is the Best LS Drive System ...
A. The right water pump we needed, the 2-piece Edelbrock Victor aluminum water pump.
B. A real racing power steering pump from Jones Racing, which I've used for years with great success.
C. A TIG welded aluminum P/S reservoir mounted on the pump ... baffled to prevent slosh & foaming of the power steering fluid.
D. 170 Amp Powermaster Alternator
E. Strong, well designed idler & tensioner mechanisms & pulleys.
F. An ATI Superdamper to protect the crank.
G. Ultra high precision Twin bearings used on all the idlers.

And last but not least ...
H. A Superior design with OVER 180° of belt wrap (contact area) on the power steering pump.

You Autocross? No more belt skip.
Running big front tires? No more pump issues.
Revving your engine to 7000+? No more bearing or component failures.
Have a quality/expensive engine? Protected with a ATI Superdamper.

Want it to still look great? Easy Peasy. You can see the great style, and it's available in:
* Brushed Aluminum
* Polished Aluminum
* Black Hard Anodize over Polished Aluminum

It's a tad more expensive at $2699, but it's got the best quality components, finish & design.


:cheers:

Ron, do you have any idea what's different about the PS pump? The Drive Junky set-up looks nice and it's the only other drive I've seen besides the Wegner Motorsports drive that has that alternator and the proper PS belt wrap.

[colorado80439]

Ron, do you have any idea what's different about the PS pump? The Drive Junky set-up looks nice and it's the only other drive I've seen besides the Wegner Motorsports drive that has that alternator and the proper PS belt wrap.[/QUOTE]

Ya, I've been eyeing that Wegner system, price is a bit better with the option of a 225 amp alt. I'd like to find out the product difference and will do so before I purchase.

http://www.wegnerautomotive.com/data1/images/NA_LS7_427_1_1152x576.jpg

[alongfortheride]

Hey Ron do they have an accessory drive for the lsa engine?

[Ron Sutton]

Ron, do you have any idea what's different about the PS pump? The Drive Junky set-up looks nice and it's the only other drive I've seen besides the Wegner Motorsports drive that has that alternator and the proper PS belt wrap.

Hi Tim & everyone reading along about the LS Drive system & pumps ... I've moved this section to a new post, so we don't hijack the OP's thread about DSE & Speedtech clips any more than we already have.

Go Here: http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?p=630652&posted=1#post630652

:cheers:

[Ron Sutton]

Ron, do you have any idea what's different about the PS pump? The Drive Junky set-up looks nice and it's the only other drive I've seen besides the Wegner Motorsports drive that has that alternator and the proper PS belt wrap.

Ya, I've been eyeing that Wegner system, price is a bit better with the option of a 225 amp alt. I'd like to find out the product difference and will do so before I purchase.

http://www.wegnerautomotive.com/data1/images/NA_LS7_427_1_1152x576.jpg


I've moved this section to a new post, so we don't hijack the OP's thread about DSE & Speedtech clips any more than we already have.

Go Here: http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?p=630652&posted=1#post630652

:cheers:

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Ron do they have an accessory drive for the lsa engine?


I've moved this section to a new post, so we don't hijack the OP's thread about DSE & Speedtech clips any more than we already have.

Go Here: http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?p=630652&posted=1#post630652

:cheers:

[colorado80439]

surprised no one has mentioned chassisworks front subframe. Anyone care to comment on their experience with Chris Alton's product.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Would anyone here like to do a comparison of a cell phone produced 8 years ago to the newest technology that just got released? Didn't think so. The old one still works, and makes great phone calls, but old and reliable doesn't always mean better and the new ones work so well it's hard to remember how we survived on the old ones. Remember pagers? ...

The whole purpose of a company, Apple, Chevrolet, Wirlpool, Samsung... , investing a lot of $ and time in R&D and releasing a new product is to supersede an old design with newer ideas and/or better technology, all in the name of better performance. It would be a total waste to just add a new part # to fill up the page in a catalog. In that respect the Pro Touring parts world is no different. We've seen incredible advancements in product quality and design in the last 5, 10, 15 years. Speedtech is now leading the charge to opening up the next chapter of the book called achieving a higher level of performance. The extensive effort invested into this frame/suspension is to move from the "wouldn't it be cool" stage to the real world of pushing cars harder than they ever have been before.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

As has been said a real world comparison would require exactly identical cars and drivers with the suspension being the only variable. That's nigh impossible to even do, because no two cars are exactly the same. Suspension geometry is math, facts that can be proven through mathematical equations. We know if A gets a certain result, then when we improve A we will then get improved results. ExtReme products are that improvement yielding an improved result. Math doesn't lie, it's not allowed to.

Customer response has been incredible for this new suspension. Unfortunately many of the frames that have already gone out the door are for cars still in the build stage, I think we all understand that one. I believe in the near future though, as these cars hit the track and they get dialed in to those specific cars and drivers, the results will prove themselves again and again. We saw this happen years ago with the Pro Touring subframe when it had the latest technology, now Speedtech is taking it's turn, again.

[badazz81z28]

Would anyone here like to do a comparison of a cell phone produced 8 years ago to the newest technology that just got released? Didn't think so. The old one still works, and makes great phone calls, but old and reliable doesn't always mean better and the new ones work so well it's hard to remember how we survived on the old ones. Remember pagers? ...

.

Wow, that's rough. I don't think I would compare DSEs frame to an old flip cell phone. :popcorn2:

[colorado80439]

Wow, that's rough. I don't think I would compare DSEs frame to an old flip cell phone. :popcorn2:

Ya, I think he was referring to my comment on CA Chassisworks, but I guess it applies to DSE and probably many other subframe manufactures using that old flip phone C6 technology.

[badazz81z28]

Ya, I think he was referring to my comment on CA Chassisworks, but I guess it applies to DSE and probably many other subframe manufactures using that old flip phone C6 technology.


Of course everyone wants people to buy their product, but to state one brand is inferior because of how long ago it was released, it just not right. Last I checked torque arm suspensions, delrin bushings, corvette hubs, ATS spindles are not new revelations. I'll wait and see how the Speedtech built cars fare at the autocrosses. OUSCI is coming up here in no time.

Real world results doesn't require exact built cars with exact skilled drivers, you can see trends and the current trend clearly shows that DSE cars out perform similar cars with different set-ups.

[Che70velle]

Of course everyone wants people to buy their product, but to state one brand is inferior because of how long ago it was released, it just not right. Last I checked torque arm suspensions, delrin bushings, corvette hubs, ATS spindles are not new revelations. I'll wait and see how the Speedtech built cars fare at the autocrosses. OUSCI is coming up here in no time.

Real world results doesn't require exact built cars with exact skilled drivers, you can see trends and the current trend clearly shows that DSE cars out perform similar cars with different set-ups.


In the world of race components, which is what these (and all other aftermarket subs) aftermarket subs are, there are design improvements made every year. Ben is not referring to hardware that is hanging on the subframe, meaning control arms, spindles, etc, but he is specifically talking about geometry. Pivot points in particular. Geometry is what makes the subframe work for you, not you working to make it work. The front roll center of these new subs quite frankly will be the best out there, in a pro touring competition style environment. Ron Sutton knows his stuff. He and the ST guys have created a masterpiece.

I raced asphalt late models for many years, and we would cut our front clips off our cars almost every year if our chassis maker found an improvement in geometry, regardless of the fact that it was all adjustable pivot points to start with. You simply cannot argue with mathematics. Of course at that point we are simply trying to keep up with the competition. Nobody wants to go to the track knowing that their equipment is second rate. It puts you behind the eight ball right off the bat, and it's very hard to dig out of a situation like that when your racing weekly. Just not enough time to revamp...

Let's keep in mind here that there are drivers out there that will win in whatever car they are in. Talent trumps new technology every time. BUT...you put talent in a car with the kind of technology that is being offered here, and it's not going to be a easy day for those chasing them.

[Blake Foster]

Yea I might not have phrased it the same way Ben did.
Obviously we (and I mean EVERYONE at Speedtech) are proud of our products and are really Excited to prove how well this new design will perform.
Ben, I am sure being the marketing guy, was trying to make a comparison that people could relate to and was not intending to :stirthepot:
We all know the DSE stuff is GREAT other wise we would not be trying to make stuff better. I would like noting more that to be able to have cars at every event and run head to head with not only DSE but all the great cars. and that day is coming. As we produce and sell more and better products and more people get these Speedtech ExtReme track time packages and Chassis on the road and track it will make for some good competition/FUN.

[rushca01]

Will the corvette z06 brakes mount on the new extreme sub frame?

[Blake Foster]

Will the corvette z06 brakes mount on the new extreme sub frame?

Yes any c5 c6 (c7to the best of my knowledge) will bolt up.
or ANY aftermarket brake made for the same applications

[rushca01]

Yes any c5 c6 (c7to the best of my knowledge) will bolt up.
or ANY aftermarket brake made for the same applications

Man, I was really really leaning towards the AME setup but this has me really thinking about switching to speedtech.

[Blake Foster]

Well if you need more convincing ask Ron Sutton how good the geometry is.
he has worked on all of them. and did the design on this one.

[rushca01]

Well if you need more convincing ask Ron Sutton how good the geometry is.
he has worked on all of them. and did the design on this one.

I just got off the phone with Jay to get get more info in these extreme sub frames. For the time being I'm sticking with a Chevy small block engine so unfortunately this frame won't work. Jay did take the time to discuss the legacy pro touring frame and I think it might be an option now since I'm sticking with my current engine set up.

[Blake Foster]

hope we can help you one way or another.

[atomicjoe23]

Will the new ExtReme front clip not work with a traditional SBC?

I've got a '67 Firebird and I wanna keep the traditional Pontiac engine. . .will the new ExtReme front clip work with a Pontiac engine?

[Blake Foster]

Will the new ExtReme front clip not work with a traditional SBC?

I've got a '67 Firebird and I wanna keep the traditional Pontiac engine. . .will the new ExtReme front clip work with a Pontiac engine?

it could be made to work with a SBC We just have not done the required fitting process and parts development for that engine YET. as for the PONTIAC I don't think it will fit at all.

[atomicjoe23]

it could be made to work with a SBC We just have not done the required fitting process and parts development for that engine YET. as for the PONTIAC I don't think it will fit at all.

. . .but the Pro-Touring subframe should be able to fit a Pontiac 400/455 correct?

That's a bummer to hear about the Pontiac not working for the ExtReme front subframe at all. . .when that came out it had pretty much made up my mind as to the direction I wanted to go with the front subframe on my '67 Firebird. . .

. . .now it's gonna be back to the drawing board. . .

[RoadRace Elco]

I run all Speedtech on my ElCameeno! its been in the suspension challenge marry pozzi driving it and all she said was this elco handels like a slot car.

plus there from Canada...dig there slang...:confused59:

[Blake Foster]

. . .but the Pro-Touring subframe should be able to fit a Pontiac 400/455 correct?

That's a bummer to hear about the Pontiac not working for the ExtReme front subframe at all. . .when that came out it had pretty much made up my mind as to the direction I wanted to go with the front subframe on my '67 Firebird. . .

. . .now it's gonna be back to the drawing board. . .

We have had customers put the Pontiac motor in the Pro Touring sub frame but we do not supply motor mounts or have headers. the dimensions on the motor mount is along way back from the SB BB and LS that means custom mounts we can supply the parts needed to build some. Plus the Exhaust ports are really low and working the headers around the steering shaft or the other way around becomes the problem. Like a say less than a hand full of people have done it so it makes little sense from the r&D stand point.

we looked at the model and the Pontiac motor when designing the Extreme sub and there was just no way it was going to work inside our design criteria.

[atomicjoe23]

we looked at the model and the Pontiac motor when designing the Extreme sub and there was just no way it was going to work inside our design criteria.

Are the headers the problem with the ExtReme subframe or are there other issues as well???

[Blake Foster]

Are the headers the problem with the ExtReme subframe or are there other issues as well???

I am only assuming as we have not gone very far, but thinking oil pan, engine mounts, oil filter adaptor?? and front drive options.

[eric1967]

Will the Holley oil pans work on an Ls engine in a first gen with this sub frame?

[Blake Foster]

Will the Holley oil pans work on an Ls engine in a first gen with this sub frame?

No the taper on the pan is too much we use the ATS pan for remote filter applications or the MAST pan will work or the autoKraft pan