Camaro X...

[shineym3]

I noticed that on DSE's website they say the largest tire wheel you could fit upfront is, "With the stock suspension, the largest front tire is a P245/45R17 on an 8 inch rim or a P245/45R16 on an 8 inch rim. Areas to watch for signs of tire/wheel contact are; tire inner sidewall to subframe under full lock steering, wheel inner to stock upper control arm during full lock steering, tire outer sidewall to fender lip especially on 1969 models.".

While it's obvious that X has anything BUT a stock suspension how was an 18x9 wheel shoe-horned in there and not rub?

Incidentally, how frickin' cool would it be to see a comparison of the Mark/Charley cars? I for one would love to see how a no-expense-spared car like Mule would compare to a "simpler" car like X!!!!!!!!!! Getting Mark to drive each car not only for the consistency but also his driving ability and familiarity with each car and you've got one for the ages. Anybody feel like doing some butt-kissing??? :bow:

[XcYZ]

Fun idea, but how do you quantify the results?

[shineym3]

I think you could go a bunch of different directions with the idea; perhaps a poll of what others really wanted to see would be a good idea. For one, I think almost a Real Street Eliminator (hp & ft.lbs., 1/4 mile, braking, fuel economy, closed circuit lap time, ride and drive, etc.) concept would be a good place to start as it's using criteria that the big name magazines have already figured out is something readers want and can relate to.

While I had the idea originally coming from a sheer entertainement perspective, I have also realized how PRACTICAL something like this would be when building your own car. The other intangible is that one would have a really good idea of how cars like this stack up against actual production cars. Probably a lot better idea also to let guys like Mark and Charley give us an idea of what the limits on these cars are than us try and figure it out ourselves only to become a grease spot somewhere! :lol:

That's just one idea, what do you think?

[J2SpeedandCustom]

We have a 9" wheel in front with a 255/40/18 on it. Stock subframe, DSE suspension, coilovers, etc. Running a pretty low ride height with no rubbing but you do have to shorten the turning radius slightly. The car drives and handles beyond our expectation! :yes:

[shineym3]

Thanks for letting me know! Do you happen to know what the backspacing is for those wheels? How did your figure out what the maximum turning radius was?

[lil427z]

i bought dse new ft chassis for my 69 camaro camaro i will be running 18x10s on the ft .
kyle told me that was the way to go.


rick k :thumbsup:

[fatlife]

i bought dse new ft chassis for my 69 camaro camaro i will be running 18x10s on the ft .
kyle told me that was the way to go.


rick k :thumbsup:
:cheering: :clap:

:lol: :rolleyes:

[shineym3]

those babies would fit. What I am trying to figure out is what will fit with the stock subframe. I'm going to be doing this whole thing in stages...getting a car is the first step! :D

[lil427z]

18x8.
rick k

[fatlife]

18x8.
rick k
:lolhit: :fluffy:

[J2SpeedandCustom]

Thanks for letting me know! Do you happen to know what the backspacing is for those wheels? How did your figure out what the maximum turning radius was?

5.25" for my setup. This puts the rim about 3/8" from the steering arm end. The turning radius was easy. Once the car is at ride height you turn the wheel from side to side. The outside wheel well is where the rubbing would be if you didn't limit the amount of turning. We are a 1/4 turn of the steering wheel from full lock so it didn't limit it much.

[shineym3]

I am looking for the same stance that X has. What I can't figure out though is why people have said that with a STOCK front subframe 8" is the widest you can go, yet Mark got a 9" under there using the stock subframe with a car that is sitting that low. I am wondering how he was able to do it. Judging by his pervious works he measured everything about a billion times a broke out the slide rule and FOUND the way it would work. So how'd he do it? :wow:

[camcojb]

I am looking for the same stance that X has. What I can't figure out though is why people have said that with a STOCK front subframe 8" is the widest you can go, yet Mark got a 9" under there using the stock subframe with a car that is sitting that low. I am wondering how he was able to do it. Judging by his pervious works he measured everything about a billion times a broke out the slide rule and FOUND the way it would work. So how'd he do it? :wow:

Who said he has a 9" wheel up front?

Jody

[shineym3]

Ryan-

It is indeed mini tubbed with the DSE kit, he is running the 18x9/18x12 combo, with I think a 335 rear Michelin tire.

Steve-
Fikse just released this variation of the Profil 5S for racing, so it has some special features that Mark wanted. I like 'em.

Tyler

[Mean 69]

I'm running a 275 on a 9.5" wheel on the front of my 69. In order to do so, you will give up quite a lot of turning radius, there are various rub points from inconvenient all the way up to dangerous if not dealt with appropriately. The best way to prevent over-steering issues is to alter the steering stops on the stock control arms, ala Speedtech's idea. I don't know what the rub points are with a stock upper control arm, I am currently running GW's (but only until our new arms are done later this year...). It's not pretty in many cases, inner fenderwells, had to remove a couple of bolts for the wheelwell chrome trim pieces, etc. Worth it? In my eyes, completely. The added grip is significant, and the look is mean. I don't know what the backspacing is on my car, but it's irrelevant for most folks as I have some one-off custom stuff on the front (brakes, wheelspacer, etc).

Carl Casanova has a write-up on this in his website with a lot of detail, including backspacing etc.

Funny, one of my customer is in the process of buying wheels for his car, and one wheel source told him the very biggest he could run on the front of a 69 is a 7" wheel with a 225 tire. Swore up and down. Crazy.

Mark

[Jr]

Tyler (ATS) said, "It is indeed mini tubbed with the DSE kit, he is running the 18x9/18x12 combo, with I think a 335 rear Michelin tire". this is post number 62 in the Camaro X thread

[Teetoe_Jones]

Alright here is the deal-

Front rims-
Fikse Profil 5S, 18x9 with 6.125" of BS.
Rear rims-
Fikse Profil 5S, 18x11 with 6.125" of BS

Front suspension mods to make this work-

Upper and Lower DSE control arms, ATS AFX tall spindles, factory Camaro P/S steering arms, Baer bumpsteer adjustable outer tie rod ends with modded bolt and spacers, inner fender well hardware replaced with low profile buttom head screws.

Rear suspension mods-

DSE mini tub kit with Quadralink suspension, narrowed rear end.

Anything else?

Tyler

[olds87]

How the project 50/50 going?

[shineym3]

Tyler,

Is there a certain tire size that you would recommend? Naturally Camaro X has the perfect stance IMHO but I probably won't start of with the quadra-link right off the bat; what would you suggest for a more traditional rear end set up? Thanks for the input!

[aonghus]

Kyle told me at the Del Mar Good Guys that the largest wheel/tire combo that can fit in the rear was 18x11 w/ 5.5" Backspacing.

I think DSE's position is "without modifying anything" aside obviously from the rear housing itself, or the front sheet metal.

[fatlife]

Kyle told me at the Del Mar Good Guys that the largest wheel/tire combo that can fit in the rear was 18x11 w/ 5.5" Backspacing.

I think DSE's position is "without modifying anything" aside obviously from the rear housing itself, or the front sheet metal.
I doubt he told you that, because no way you can fit an 11 with a stock wheel housing, and you can go 12" no prob with their deeptubs, and can do way more than 5.5 backspacing with the tubs.

[68protouring454]

actually backspacing has nothing to do about fitting a wide rimunder the car, bs only has to do with the width of the rear axle.

[aonghus]

I doubt he told you that, because no way you can fit an 11 with a stock wheel housing, and you can go 12" no prob with their deeptubs, and can do way more than 5.5 backspacing with the tubs.

I must've completley blanked there, my previous post was reffering to using DSE's tub's on a '68. I was told by both Kyle & Stacey that more than 11" on a '68 is 'pushing it.'

Oh well should read my posts before I click :unibrow:

good to see you on these boards again btw.

[68protouring454]

what kyle meant was an 11 is perfect, however if you look on there site and in the lateral g members cars, stuart adams red 68 dse installed 17x13 on it, that had to nail the back space to have the tire perfectly in the center of the wheelhouse but they did it and it worked, the biggest thing is what rear susp you run, with a stock leaf spring set up the axle can move side to side up to 3/4 of an inch

[fatlife]

/ with a stock leaf spring set up the axle can move side to side up to 3/4 of an inch

What kind of leaf springs do you run??? :omg:

[68protouring454]

why do you think guys who run hard with leaf springs put a phb??
evidently you have no experience with driving a leaf spring car hard. :thumbsup:
why do you think kyle reccomends only a 11 inch wide rim on a 67-68?

[aonghus]

So essentially 11" is right on the money for a 67-68 keeping in mind that there will be a certain amount of articulation from side to side in a leaf spring set up? (with a stock axle width? My new housing is 51" end to end.)

Perhaps I can run a wider rim than 18x11, I'm running DSE's 4-Link and had the axle shortened and tubs are going in by the end of October.

Apologies if this is turning into a highjack.

[Jr]

Alright here is the deal-

Front rims-
Fikse Profil 5S, 18x9 with 6.125" of BS.
Rear rims-
Fikse Profil 5S, 18x11 with 6.125" of BS

Front suspension mods to make this work-

Upper and Lower DSE control arms, ATS AFX tall spindles, factory Camaro P/S steering arms, Baer bumpsteer adjustable outer tie rod ends with modded bolt and spacers, inner fender well hardware replaced with low profile buttom head screws.

Rear suspension mods-

DSE mini tub kit with Quadralink suspension, narrowed rear end.

Anything else?

Tyler

Tyler,
Can you turn the steering form lock to lock without rubbing?
thanks, David

[68protouring454]

you can go 12 wide if you want, i have 18x11.5 on my 68 and i have room for 13's if i wanted, however i rolled my 1/4 lips hard.
with the dse 4 link you can run tighter tolerances, like 1/4 or so.
with a stock width axle and a 11 inch rim the bs should be around 7.5

[fatlife]

why do you think guys who run hard with leaf springs put a phb??

what guys?
evidently you have no experience with driving a leaf spring car hard.
sure that's it :rolleyes: :rolleyes: well even if that was true, I guess thats better than just regurgitating second hand info :rolleyes: Please enlighten us with your experiences.

3/4" clearance would be great to have inside the wheel tubs, but I personally know and have had cars (firebird with 10"s on the back with stock tubs and leaf springs, driven plenty hard) that had less with leaf springs and were fine laterally. The main problem is when the top of hte tire cambers in, from going up a drive way or body roll and it rubs, not from the rearend moving side to side. But either way it would be great to have 3/4" clearance, but I'm sure people trying to squeeze the bigger wheels have delt with less clearance than that. That's all that I was saying. Plus if your rearend is moving that far left and right, you might thinking about changing out the bushings in the rear to something better.

[68protouring454]

well just call dse, if your using there parts they will not steer you in the wrong direction :thumbsup:

[chicane]

3/4" is fine.

Evidently, there are those who dont have any experience with running leafs and driving them hard.... or they wouldnt be asking questions ?? Educate yourself and get more than one opinion..... then form your own.

Why would I think Kyle recommends only a 11 inch wide rim on a 67-68 ?? Probably because he is using an excellent margin for saftey (taking in account most end users and their knowledge) and possibly the fact that he has probably done this set up enough times to know what fits ?? Most likely. But an 11" rim width recommendation.... goes to mini tubs or some sheetmetal work to make it fit.

In reality, I think the most back spacing that can be run on stock 67-68 sheetmetal is 6.5".... no matter what rim width you use and that is pretty much pushing it. But in a 67-68, with factory sheetmetal and actually having it fit without massive rub, is a rough max of 9.5" on a 6.5" back space.

An 11" with stock sheet metal.... no. An 11" with mini tubs.... sure. You could run an 11" with factory sheet metal but I dont know too many people that are building 4x4's here.

A PHB with leafs is really a no-no. Unless, your suspension travel is so limited that you can live with the associated geometry problems. I used to know a few people that actually ran a PHB, but they have pretty much all switched over to other idea's because the technology in the past ten years or so has steered them somewhere else in component selection.

[zbugger]

Yes, Ron's car is done. I've ridden in it and it's really nice. But he's not running leafs. He's got a torque arm under the car and is running a Watt's link.

[68protouring454]

i forgot i am not up to date as our other lateral g friends
how do you stay so up to date with all of this?
is your car mini tubbed?? i know you push your car really hard :thumbsup: , what size tires are on your car, do you experience any rub? what size wheels on your car?
the axle WILL move laterally in the car, there are other ways of doing it but the best bet is to go to a 4 link or 3 link rear susp with phb, or watts mount/links.this way you can go with a bigger tire and tighter clearances, as aonghus is doing with the 4 link.
6.5 is pushing it in a 67-68, carlc runs 9.5's with 5.5 bs, and he runs his car hard, i guess if you like the tucked look you could run the 6.5 bs,
i did not see anyone say a 11 inch rim would fit with stock sheetmetal.
thanks for all that hardcore knowledge
oh yeah, the only guide to bs is when you have like components, like dse deep tubs, same width axle, on a mini tubbed car you can run damn near 2.5 inch different bs with same width wheel tire, depending on how wide your axle is, most guys like 6-6.5 on a 12 inch wheel, i however like a 7.5-8

[68protouring454]

thanks for popping in chicane i was hoping someone with real experience would come around, and we all know how hardcore you are :thumbsup:
thanks

[fatlife]

chicane, how do you get 6.5" backspacing in a stock wheelwell?? Pretty sure the most you can run is about 5.75". Was that a mistype or am I missing out on something?

[chicane]

chicane, how do you get 6.5" backspacing in a stock wheelwell?? Pretty sure the most you can run is about 5.75". Was that a mistype or am I missing out on something?

With a hammer. :lol:

But I guess that nulls the stock sheetmetal idea huh ??

The 6.5 will fit, but it will definately be under the (which I believe to be the minimum) 0.75" of sidewall clearance. Which then requires the hammer and rolling the fender lips for good measure.

On the rear of my 67, I could easily go 6.125 to 6.250....... but the 6.5 could definately fit with a little massaging. That is why I stated that, as a maximum fitment. Didnt say it was going to be easy, but it will fit. Didnt say it wasnt going to rub either, because it will in articulated movement. It will also require a different spring build and GW bushings (Del's or the Cat5) and their shackel's.

I have done a couple of 67-68's with more than 6.00" and without any problems. I will agree tho, CarlC is running a 17x9.5 on his 68 and it is using a 5.5" backspace..... and it fits perfectly.

[wrighton]

Hi guys is there any more information on the camaro x build up. I am in the decision making of getting ready to set up the front suspension. And really having a hard time choosing between art morrison sub. Big money, but I am already in wasington and can pick up and save on shipping. but have been reading about ats tall spindle. This sounds like the way to go for for geometry. Mark used DSE? Could he have used GW upper arms. And I really like the 18x9 f and 18 x 11 r wheel set up. Any body know what tire size mark is running on the fiskes. Thanks for imput. Oh and 69 camaro. BBC.

[wrighton]

So I am back at this project again. And I actually forgot I wrote this. Any imput! Has Any body ventured on this or should I focus on the traditional 8" f and 10 " wheel combo for stock set . I have been following all of this since Wayne Due. There still seems to be tons of options and opinions. Financially I will be going to a stock subframe rebuild. But the stance is priority, I want to run 18's. Lets keep the options and opinions rollings. Thanks, Brian

[camcojb]

So I am back at this project again. And I actually forgot I wrote this. Any imput! Has Any body ventured on this or should I focus on the traditional 8" f and 10 " wheel combo for stock set . I have been following all of this since Wayne Due. There still seems to be tons of options and opinions. Financially I will be going to a stock subframe rebuild. But the stance is priority, I want to run 18's. Lets keep the options and opinions rollings. Thanks, Brian
you can't run Camaro X rear wheel/tires without a mini-tub. You can put a 265/275 front tire and 9" wheel on the stock front subframe but it will rub unless you limit steering. Not sure how Mark did that, probably built steering stops. They didn't rub, but you did have to make three point turns in tight places like parking lots.

If you're not going to minitub it I probably would stick with a 245 or 255 front tire on an 8" wheel and a 9.5" rear with a 275...........

Jody

[wrighton]

Thanks, Jody. The mini tub is in the planning for the rear. Just tryint go nail the front. Long story short. 4 years ago I gave a way my stock 69 subframe with disk brakes. Thinking I would go aftermarket.

Now I just acquired a stock 68 sub frame with drums. Now it's back to square one.

I have looked into all the sub frames. And even speed tech. You are up there in price with the addition of Tall spindles.

Thanks again.

Brian

[camcojb]

what would be your budget for a front subframe if you were going to go custom?

Jody

[wrighton]

I have been thinking about this for a long time. And Everyone is great on here for information. But what a concept if there was a lets say. A list of price and improvement parts. In ranges lets say in increments of 1,000.

2,000 to 3,000
3,000 t0 4,000

My self for the PT look and driveability I think I would have to have an expectation to pay around 2,500 to 3,000 for components.

I have been hesitant to call because I want to have available funds for the right products and the right expectations.

Thanks, Brian.

[98ssnova]

I noticed that on DSE's website they say the largest tire wheel you could fit upfront is, "With the stock suspension, the largest front tire is a P245/45R17 on an 8 inch rim or a P245/45R16 on an 8 inch rim. Areas to watch for signs of tire/wheel contact are; tire inner sidewall to subframe under full lock steering, wheel inner to stock upper control arm during full lock steering, tire outer sidewall to fender lip especially on 1969 models.".

While it's obvious that X has anything BUT a stock suspension how was an 18x9 wheel shoe-horned in there and not rub?

Incidentally, how frickin' cool would it be to see a comparison of the Mark/Charley cars? I for one would love to see how a no-expense-spared car like Mule would compare to a "simpler" car like X!!!!!!!!!! Getting Mark to drive each car not only for the consistency but also his driving ability and familiarity with each car and you've got one for the ages. Anybody feel like doing some butt-kissing??? :bow:

When camaro X was built it did have a stock subframe modded with ATS goodies so that is probally why the tire width?

[clill]

Maybe you can talk Scott out of his subframe for cheap....

[Blake Foster]

We can certainly put together different sub frame packages now
Full sub
Stock sub with chicane conversion
Stock sub with qa1 GMp coil over conversion
Stock sub with arms.
Ad in a lee box and all new lingage or unisteer rack

ATS spindles on any of the above packages

lots of different options to fit any budget.