68 Camaro/Wayne Due Frame/Milodon Oil Pan/BBC Will not fit

[JoshC]

I hope this is the right forum for this post.

I do not have a Standard Big Block Oil Pan to check but the Milodon Oil Pan is approx. 4" tall from the Block to the bottom of the pan where it hits the power rack and pinion steering gear. Does anyone know what the stock pan height is? It looks like I need another inch or so to make it all fit or something else is very wrong... Any ideas? I am dead in the water...

Here are some pics I have just taken of the frame/motor/R&P:

Left Side

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1617/1030674jv5.jpg

Right Side

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1341/1030675jl6.jpg

Overall Pic. Yeah, the Transmission crossmember needs trimmed as well, about 3/16" to wide...

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/1618/1030683kh1.jpg

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4354/1030676bl7.jpg

[Bowtieracing]

Is that really a wayne due frame?

[68protouring454]

no thats a street rodder frame, probaly an alston, i think all waynes frames used some type of corvette control arms other then the 1-2 he made to use stock 1st gen control arms

[B Schein]

That looks like one of the frames he was building using the AME mustang II suspension.

[JoshC]

That frame is indeed a Wayne Due Frame. I ordered this frame directly from Wayne Due himself. There must be a history with this question as it is not the first time I have been asked if it was really a WD frame... Anyone want to share the story if there is one?

Here is a pic with the motor in place and the bolt on the right "made" I am pushing up on the R&P. Tighter than I should probably.

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/3420/1030680bp4.jpg

Here is a pic of how far off the left bolt is with the same pressure up on the R&P with the right bolt made.

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1191/1030677up5.jpg

In these pictures, the transmission is mounted sitting on the crossmember to make sure the angle of the motor is correct, as far as with the frame itself.

Any ideas?

[XcYZ]

There must be a history with this question as it is not the first time I have been asked if it was really a WD frame...

Wayne made several types of subframes, but he was mostly known for his C4/C5 based subframes.

[JoshC]

Wayne made several types of subframes, but he was mostly known for his C4/C5 based subframes.


Got it. Looks to me like you may be using the same WD frame with your 69? I assume your oil pan cleared the R&P with no problems?

ETA: I take that back, your frame looks different now that I have seen the additional pictures of it.

[PSV]

I had a similar problem with my stock sub-frame using a steffs oil pan. I had to switch to the milodon unit. I also have a stock camaro SS 396 and measured the oil pan and it is the same size in the area you are having trouble with as my milodon unit. What is the distance from the block to the mounting point on your motor mounts? I am using the prothane mount and its 2 and 1/2 inches. I measured a set of moroso solid mounts and they are only 2 inches. Maybe you could use the taller prothane mount and use some washers between the mount and the block to get the clearance you need.

[JoshC]

PSV, It was a good idea... But, when I measured the mounts, they were 2.5". Thank you for checking out the oil pan size. There goes my easy fix...

I am thinking about cutting the pan so it will fit but I need to remove the pan and see if thats even an option. I do not know how much spare room is in the pan yet...

Anyone else have any ideas?

[JoshC]

What do you guys think about taking a piece of 1"x3"x(the proper length) bar stock and bolting it to the existing two holes - have two holes drilled approx. 1.5" in the bar stock below the two original holes. Essentially moving the R&P one inch out and 1.5" down? I have a new ididit steering column to put in as well. Notching the oil pan is still an option but this may be cleaner and certainly easier for me. And I even have some of the red paint left for the bar stock if it works. :D

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8653/1030689iv3.jpg

[JUSTANOVA]

What do you guys think about taking a piece of 1"x3"x(the proper length) bar stock and bolting it to the existing two holes - have two holes drilled approx. 1.5" in the bar stock below the two original holes. Essentially moving the R&P one inch out and 1.5" down? I have a new ididit steering column to put in as well. Notching the oil pan is still an option but this may be cleaner and certainly easier for me. And I even have some of the red paint left for the bar stock if it works. :D

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8653/1030689iv3.jpg


I don't think you want to go moving the rack around, may alter the bumpsteer characteristics etc...

[Silver69Camaro]

What do you guys think about taking a piece of 1"x3"x(the proper length) bar stock and bolting it to the existing two holes - have two holes drilled approx. 1.5" in the bar stock below the two original holes. Essentially moving the R&P one inch out and 1.5" down? I have a new ididit steering column to put in as well. Notching the oil pan is still an option but this may be cleaner and certainly easier for me. And I even have some of the red paint left for the bar stock if it works. :D

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8653/1030689iv3.jpg

Moving the rack down that much would be more than an extreme change, don't do it. That suspension has about .004" of theoretical bumpsteer (using a 28" toe span), so if you do want to move the rack, you have a little bit to play with. If you want an example, moving the rack down 1/2" will give you about .620" of bumpsteer...so a little bit changes the geometry considerably.

There are better ways to go about this. First, pull out that copper equalizing tube that spans between the two boots. Cut off the straps that fasten the boot to the rack, and rotate it so the tube will be near the front/bottom. Then replace the tube...this will get that part out of the way.

Be very careful when raising the motor, there isn't much room to play with on Camaros, espeically with a big block. In one of those photos it looks as if the motor will bolt in when resting on the rack (with the tube in the way). If this is indeed the case, I'd dent or notch the pan. Aim for 3/16" clearance or more.

[BThibodeaux]

I have the WD chassis that is set up for the C4 suspension. I have a big block set-up, and the same oil pan. I also had the same problem you are encountering. Silver 69 is right. First relocate the vent tube, then see what you have. I had to notch about 5/8 inch out of the front of my pan. It was a fairly simple fix. I agree with all others, in that you do not want to relocate the steering geer without completely understanding the implications.

BTW, that is a great looking set-up you have.

[Rob07002]

So what everyone is saying here is that if you want to run a BBC in a WD sub you need to mess with the rack and notch the pan???? UGH! :eek:

[BThibodeaux]

So what everyone is saying here is that if you want to run a BBC in a WD sub you need to mess with the rack and notch the pan???? UGH! :eek:


Please don't take this the wrong way, but anybody who gets nervous about notching a a little oil pan probably has no business attempting a build that utilizes aftermarket running gear.

[Silver69Camaro]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but anybody who gets nervous about notching a a little oil pan probably has no business attempting a build that utilizes aftermarket running gear.

Gawd, I couldn't have said it better myself!

BTW, who said this issue exists with all Wayne Due subs? Is it really fair to generalize the situation like that?

[69 L88 Camaro]

I just put a BBC in a 65 GTO and went through a similar problem. I started with a "winged" pan. If you look at where the front of the new sump meets the pan the radius from the factory part of the donor pan is missing. The new sump is moved forward a fair amount. I ended up with a Moroso pan that retained the factory radius and was just deeper and it fit. It also had the dents to clear the tie rods, Not that you will need them. Jegs was very good and exchanged the pans as I trial fit them and only charged me return shipping. I have the part number. If you want to look at what I am talking about it's in the online catalog.

[clill]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but anybody who gets nervous about notching a a little oil pan probably has no business attempting a build that utilizes aftermarket running gear.
You are probably right but who would build a frame for a Camaro that won't allow a big block chevy to bolt in ? It;s not like something is being adapted. This frame was meant to cradle a Chevy engine. Did he tell Wayne what he was putting in it ?

[JoshC]

OK guys, thanks for the thoughts on the bar stock idea. I will mod the pan. I do not have a stroker kit in it so I gather that there should be enough room.

Silver69Camaro, thanks for the tip. I will move the tube Sat and go from there. There is no way the rack will bolt up as it is now. Without that tube I should be about 1/2" shy of making the bolt.

BThibodeaux, it sounds like we have the same issues. Do you have any pics I can see of your fix? Thanks for the compliment, I hope to put it on the road this spring.

69 L88 Camaro, I think I am going to get be able to get by with moving the tube and notching the pan. Thanks for the offer and if for some reason this does not work, I will be taking you up on it.

Clill, I specifically ordered the frame for the BBC. I was told that it would work.

Yes, it does seem like BS that the motor will not bolt right in. You certainly would think it would after spending a few thousand on a custom frame. But, it isn't exactly the end of the world either. Not really a big deal at all once the decision was made on the best way to fix the problem. As my little brother likes to say "It is not the destination but the journey"

Anyhow, thanks again for the help guys and the collective knowledge has saved me trouble with my (bad) bar stock idea.

[BThibodeaux]

BThibodeaux, it sounds like we have the same issues. Do you have any pics I can see of your fix? Thanks for the compliment, I hope to put it on the road this spring.

I will take some pics this weekend and post them here.

[XcYZ]

Something is going on. I know that Wayne had mock up motors that he used to make sure everything worked, cleared, etc. He and I specifically discussed that on several occassions as my Dart block is a bit different than a standard SBC and requires a special pan, so clearances were always a concern for me.

Is that pan deeper than stock? What motor mounts are you using?

[JoshC]

The pan may indeed be deeper. I asked in post 1 if anyone could confirm the stock pan as I do not have one to compare it to. This was my first thought as to the problem. I was told that the 4" measurement I took from my pan was the same as another members that had a stock 396. From this info, I decided the pan was the same as stock. Could the member that told me this be mistaken? I do not know, anything is possible of course. I do know my pan has a larger capacity than stock overall, I do not know if all of that volume is made up where the sump is or not.

I am using what I believe are "stock style" BB motor mounts. I bought these new from Jegs (IIRC). The mounts I am using have the center of the bolt (connects motor to frame) to the block at approx. 2.5"

I am still open to suggestions if anyone has one. I am not tearing into it until tomorrow.

[68protouring454]

you would think wayne would help you out with this, i am sure he is still finishing frames up, and with as many people on the board who have bought from him he would help.
maybe someone can put a call in

[JoshC]

you would think wayne would help you out with this, i am sure he is still finishing frames up, and with as many people on the board who have bought from him he would help.
maybe someone can put a call in


I emailed him about the problem and sent him a link to the thread on pro-touring when I first posted the question. This is the reply:

Josh,
I'm not sure why that's not fitting. You will ether need to raise the motor or notch the pan. I'm thinking nothing the pan will be the best.

Wayne

[69 L88 Camaro]

Sorry Josh,
Completely misread your post. I didn't see the pictures while at work.
Kevin

[JoshC]

Sorry Josh,
Completely misread your post. I didn't see the pictures while at work.
Kevin
No problem at all. Although I did not understand your post, I was going to ask before I gave up hope! Thanks for trying to help me.

I chickened out on cutting the pan. I was not worried about the leaks (I am a certified welder) but it would get ugly and take up more time... I think what I ended up doing looks pretty good... sorta..... Here are pics of the fix:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/9884/1030692me8.jpg

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6916/1030693wr7.jpg

Here are a few general picks I took before I came in tonight that I thought I would share of the project.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/9461/1030694tx1.jpg

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1994/1030700ay6.jpg

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3922/1030703pb2.jpg

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/7882/1030704cc4.jpg



Thanks again everyone for helping me figure this thing out!

[chicane]

This is a drag race car or a trailer queen right ??

The reason I ask, is because those little ity bity DynaLite calipers are going to melt when trying to slow down a full bodied big block chassis on the street. You might want to re-think that part of your build.

BTW, nice fix on the pan. Simple, cost effective money and time-wise and non-intrusive.... :thumbsup:

[JoshC]

Are DynaLite and Wilwood calipers the same? These are the calipers that Wayne sent with the kit.

[Silver69Camaro]

Dynalites are a specific line of calipers made by Wilwood, mostly for sub 3000-lb cars. They'll be OK on the street, but like Chicane said, they'll heat up real quick (much like an OEM caliper). I wouldn't do any repeated hard stops.

[Rob07002]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but anybody who gets nervous about notching a a little oil pan probably has no business attempting a build that utilizes aftermarket running gear.

To clarify:
I'm not nervous about notching anything, just that it would possibly be one more thing to do and add to a very long list of to-do's. When time is limited and your working out of your house garage and don't have access to Tig, plasma cutters, etc, etc, it gets to be a PITA when you have to fab something.

Packaging is key, and that's the reason kits and such are so popular. When I buy a $5000 subframe I don't expect to, nor do I want to have to notch or move anything for it to fit what the car could have orignally came with, a BBC.

Does that mean that the guy working out of his garage or isn't a star fabricator should limit his expectaitions or goals to minimal upgrades and standard bolt-ons?

[Silver69Camaro]

Does that mean that the guy working out of his garage or isn't a star fabricator should limit his expectaitions or goals to minimal upgrades and standard bolt-ons?

Sometimes, yes. A person with limited fabrication skills who say, installs a weld-in clip, has a much higher chance of:
1. Improper/unsafe installation
2. Dissatisfaction of product
3. Dissatisfaction of manufacturer
4. Diminished interest in the project
5. Lack of enjoyment in the hobby

Obviously the garage-mechanic should slowly work up their skills and confidence and realize what their limits are. A mechanic who doesn't understand what he or she is NOT capable of doing can be dangerous.

IMO, hotrodding is all about modifying parts to make things fit. Even when I buy brand new parts that "should" bolt-on, I still expect to do some modifications. It's just what this hobby is about. Having personal experience in the aftermarket industry, I know it's impossible to accomodate every combination of parts or OEM tolerances, so some modifications may be necessary no matter what you do.

[Rob07002]

Sometimes, yes. A person with limited fabrication skills who say, installs a weld-in clip, has a much higher chance of:
1. Improper/unsafe installation
2. Dissatisfaction of product
3. Dissatisfaction of manufacturer
4. Diminished interest in the project
5. Lack of enjoyment in the hobby

Obviously the garage-mechanic should slowly work up their skills and confidence and realize what their limits are. A mechanic who doesn't understand what he or she is NOT capable of doing can be dangerous.

IMO, hotrodding is all about modifying parts to make things fit. Even when I buy brand new parts that "should" bolt-on, I still expect to do some modifications. It's just what this hobby is about. Having personal experience in the aftermarket industry, I know it's impossible to accomodate every combination of parts or OEM tolerances, so some modifications may be necessary no matter what you do.

I'll agree that some people don't know their limitations and thus are dangerous, but I think your missing my point.

The comment was about the fact that a modification was needed to fit a BBC in a sub built for a BBC. When I buy parts that say they will fit and pay a premium for them I expect them to damn well fit. Car parts should not get a pass on this simply because its for a car and we, as either hobbiests, or professional mechanics/fabricators are use to modifying as a rule of thumb.

Would you be happy when you buy a $5000 hdtv and soon realize that to get it to work you need to open it up and do some soldering? Well then I guess only certifed electricians should own and enjoy tv's.

I am well aware of my linitations and the limitations I have because of environment, ie tools, space, etc. I have been wrenching on cars for over 18 years but know enough when I'm outgunned or beyond my knowledge.

My comment was to imply that parts should fit as they are intended and not an anthem for the garage mechanic. I don't have time to modify r&p's or oil pans, thus would have to be done elsewhere resulting in more time and more money. I can however, install a subframe that is designed to fit.

I am in no way saying that Wayne makes in inferior part or that he messed up or that he's misinformed customers. I believe he is a true professional in every sense.

Anyway, I think we can agree to disagree on this view.

[Silver69Camaro]

I'm not implying that you should expect to modify your stock BB pan when the subframe was made to fit a BB. I was just referring to your quote you made previously, and speaking in generalities.

I agree you shouldn't have to modify your pan.

I do believe aftermarket car parts "get a pass", but only because of the massive variations of parts involved, and not every variation can be accomodated.

I am not implying you do not know your limitations. Again, I was stating in generalities. I, or you, made no reference to your abilities.

In this particular situation, I believe there was an error on Wayne's part. I agree you shouldn't have to modify your pan. However, welding/modifying a pan, at this level of "customization", shouldn't be a major issue if you choose not to take up the issue with Wayne. I think this is the point we disagree on, and that's OK.

[clill]

From the pic it appears you just dented the pan and it now fits ? I'm still curious if that Milodon pan is maybe just about that much taller than a stock pan.