OK The numbers are out and not a person can say anything? Come on loud mouths... :D

Give me a day or so. We have had our camber/caster/bumpsteer graphs in lockdown mode for some time, but after seeing DSE post up for all to see, I think we shall follow suit.

Bonus is that we started from a bunch of the same initial settings, so we can do a side by side comparison of the DSE frame to a AFX spindle.

You people are going to be shocked for sure.

Tyler

SHOCK AWAY TYLER!!!!!!!

I'm all for learning and understanding....Building these cars is nice, but so simple these days with the many bolt on and all work done for you.

I guess the less we can do is do these products justice and undestand their function and differences. (unless of course your full o cash and just don't care...Which is still ok... :lol: )

That way, we can make intelligent choices too, one not only founded on the "name brand" part.

Looking forward to seeing the comparo!

Lead.

Before I get lit on fire for my 'shocked' comment let me say this disclaimer-

This is NOT going to be a direct apples to apples comparison. It can never be that cut and dry, but I can give out the same geometry graphs and numbers with the same initial settings.

Tyler

I hear ya,

:fire: (Knew i had seen this somewhere... :D )

Lets just put a bit of light on that subject. (for everyone's benefit i guess since no one speaks up of the numbers...)


' Lead.

Tyler

Am I reading you correctly in that you can equal the same geometry numbers with the AFX spindle vs. the entire DSE sub frame set-up? Please continue, I am very interested and have my check book ready to purchase the next round of your spindle if this is so. I do not have the intimate knowledge you folks have but am willing to purchase your knowledge and brag about it like I know what the Hell I am talking about. I fear that most of the numbers and advantages that each product offers will never be realized in true form as most posers will never twist their PT ride to those extremes. I am planning to run mine like it was a rental car.

I did read your disclaimer from the following post but I still am interested in your numbers.

I would be very interested in the stress testing that was put into the AFX spindle also. GM puts alot of testing in their spindle and had problems with breakage in the past that caused projects to be shut down until fixed.

Someone will put these numbers into simple terms, right...

Major props to DSE and ATS for going public with their numbers...
This act takes a major set of balls!! :thumbsup:

Maybe the DSE sibframe with Tyler's spindles is the magic combination. :unibrow: :D :unibrow: :D

I am impressed also to see DSE put down the hard data, they really hadn't done that in the past. Disclaimer: as if there aren't enough fish in the front suspension sea already, we at Lateral Dynamics are also developing front solutions, clearly ATS has a head start on us, and DSE's new release beats us out too. Anyway, for a small company like ours, it is really hard to compete against advertising dollars that the big incumbent companies have, so we for certain welcome this.

Keep in mind, the numbers posted are important, but in and of themselves, they don't tell the whole story. I wouldn't expect any company, ATS or DSE included, to give "all" of the data out, there still has to be some proprietary secrets, or design theft would follow (not like it hasn't for DSE and Global anyway).

For some of the info listed, here's what it means:

Bump steer: Most folks know this, but this is the toe tendancy of a suspension system through the suspension travel, i.e. when the suspension moves up and down, this is what the toe angle of the wheel is doing. Less is better.

Ackerman: There's a principle named after the dude, Ackerman, that deals with the angle of each of the front wheels through a turn. If you look at the car from above, for instance, in a tight turn, the inside wheel ideally (i.e. on paper) needs to turn in a tighter arc, because it has less distance to travel than the outside tire. "Pure" Ackerman bascially states that the inside tire follows the ideal line relative to the outside tire in a given turn, obviously depends upon track width, and wheelbase. In the real world, you will get as many opinions on this as you will on who makes the best pizza in Chicago, there is no "right" answer. Things that come into play include the behavior of the tires (i.e. slip angles, which with modern tires is far less than it had been in the past), weight transfer (in a turn, the inside tire carries very little loading, so one argument is that "ackerman doen't matter as much at speed), and other goodies such as alignment settings.

Caster change: If you look at the line intersecting the upper and lower ball joint, you'll see that on virtually every car today there is a tilt, the top is further back on the car than the bottom ball joint. This angle is called the caster angle, and has a profound effect on a lot of dynamic behaviors. There's a graph that shows the change as a function of suspension travel, this is because the upper arm on an SLA suspension system (Short-Long-Arm, i.e. double wishbone) is shorter than the lower, so when the supension moves, the caster angle must change. Lots of arguments on what's good here, because it is coupled to several other aspects of the overall suspension and steering system.

Camber Gain: Seemingly everyone's favorite buzzword on front suspension, in reality is but one of the many things that need to be managed simultaneously in an effective system, but the early F Body cars had such poor camber characteristics, that improving this aspect has a profound improvement on the handling of the car when used with today's far superior tires. This is another one where you will get a huge number of opinions, because it is not well understood by many people, and also that it too is not independent, it is directly coupled to many other aspects of the overall suspension system. Further, virtually ALL camber gain data is taken with the wheels pointed straight ahead, but the last time I looked, you really kind of need to know what's happening when you TURN the car, because that's where you need to benefit of this aspect. Still, this is one piece of data where you CAN compare system to system, provided the data was collected properly, which is straight forward.

Again, to stress that we are in this business too, my "opinion" is that there are other factors that are equally as important, more important in fact that go into a good system. Also, I am not suggesting for a second that I would expect/demand, that any of the suppliers out there publish this, it's not any more confidential than the stuff listed, but I want to make sure I don't piss anyone off by saying this. Folks can get so sensitive. Anyway, a few other parameters that are important/interesting to look at is the roll center height and behavior (i.e dynamically), the scrub radius, side scrubbing behavior, and some others.

Some folks love data, some hate it and just want to feel good about things. We tend towards the "love data" end of things, so it is really nice to see some hard numbers for once. Very welcome in my eyes.

Mark