I'm with Todd, a melonized gear is best for the street. If you have time it would be a good idea to sacrifice a bronze gear first. No doubt the cam gear has some scuffing and galling. Running the bronze gear first will help to smooth and "polish" the cam gear before you install that expensive poly gear.I have done it once with success. I am running a bronze gear in my engine. I check it every 2000 miles when i check valve lash. I consider it regular maintenance. I just remove the cap and check the backlash at the distributor rotor. Only works if you dont have the advance mechanism cause of the play it has to the shaft-if that makes sense. Faster than removing the distributor...

Thanks Ray -- I do have a little time -- how many miles would you suggest running the bronze gear? (we have the bronze MSD 8471 gear in it right now). There's probably 30 pretty hard miles on it so far with the bronze gear since the switch.

And we also have no advance on it and the dizzy is locked out.

Can't remember, it was 5 years ago. I would guess about 200 miles. Not sure it helped,but the bronze gear had some deep grooves worn in it when i removed it. Gear on billet cam is pretty hard(heat treated i'm sure). I am still running that cam. Let the bronze gear take the abuse for as long as you can without it completely failing of course.
When i install a new gear i check the backlash with a dial indicator and write it down. That way you will have a measurement to compare to as it starts wearing. Save time, i hate pulling the distributor, especially mine with the intake in the way.

Cool Ray.. we might just run with this bronze gear then for a bit in the next 2 weeks before we head down south for RTTC... or we may make the trip with it and check it when we get down there. Depending on how it looks, maybe just leave it in. I guess the "safe" and proven route is to run the trip and event with the bronze gear... that's been happening for decades with success right?

Thanks for the tip on the checking the backlash.

P.S. I still really wanna check out your car in person one of these days! You weren't interested in taking it to RTTC? I'm not sure how far you are from Bakersfield, but it'd be cool if you came to meet us and have BBQ on Thurs afternoon before the weekend racing. 3 - 5 pm at the Ironworks shop. Should be a lot of fun.

Guys giving advice is all "guessing"....

Listen to Comp Cams not guesses.

The boys from the North (EH?) are bringing pizza....

Have you ever been in Canada? I ordered a pepperoni pizza up there once while on the boat... I'm pretty sure it was bologna not pepperoni. The slices were like 4" in diameter... and I've never seen pepperoni that large have you?

PS -- Nothing wrong with a bronze gear. The "wrong gear" would be not checking it for wear on a regular basis. The poly carb gear is just "new tech" and has lots of testing behind it to show that it wears better than bronze... but doesn't mean that it's an install and forget piece either. To me - this is an issue like running a solid lifter motor... every once in awhile you have to run the rack. No biggie it's just maintenance.

I'd be checking the distributor after EVERY track day. That's when oiling is an issue... and it's when you're putting the most stresses on stuff. Takes nothing to pop it out take a peek and stab it back in... and it beats sitting like a FORD on the way home.:unibrow:

I run Pure Power oil filters.... They filter 100% of the oil. They have magnets installed (doesn't help for bronze) and they're cleanable and let me see what's up with every change. In my book $200 is CHEAP for a filter when it's on a motor with a $1000 crank in a $2500 block... Or in Todds case - a $5000 block. :woot:

Rich talked to Comp Cams while I called Lunati... the Comp tech seemed much more on the ball than the Lunati guy I talked to, plus there is much more detail on that Comp poly gear -- as well as lots of opinions out there -- like anything!

No Canada for me yet... curious about this pizza though. No more BBQ? :question:

You're right on the maintenance -- I can't expect a hydraulic roller LSx type experience with a big solid roller high revving gen 1 sbc... gotta be committed to checking things often, esp after hard days on a track. No doubt.

Sounds like a badass filter. Your filter may be worth more than my block. :lol:

Hey Todd -- why the deleted post this morning? Were you being mean to Greg again? LOL Spill it!! :cheers:

I was being mean to Greg and figured my advice would fall on deaf ears anway. :rofl:

Touche.. :unibrow:

I didn't get the mean part. Everybody has an opinion and worthy discussion points. It's how someone makes an "informed" decision.

In the end -- none of us really give a crap what he decides to do as long as he's making a best effort, informed choice.

I see three choices:

Melonized

Bronze

Poly Carb

He's doing the right thing by studying the issue - calling manufacturers for their advice - and getting opinions here and anywhere else he can. However, I personally take the advice from the factory boys even if it take a couple calls a couple days apart or I have to "elevate" the discussion. I'd also call an engine builder or two to see if they have any valid thoughts.

This is straight off COMP CAMS website regarding this subject:

What Distributor Gear Should I Use With My Camshaft?


Matching camshaft and distributor gears is one of the most critical, yet often overlooked step in engine assembly. The proper distributor gear for your camshaft differs by both the material and the kind of lifter for which your camshaft was designed. Using the wrong material can lead to premature gear wear, possible camshaft wear and ultimately engine failure.

First off, no steel distributor gear is compatible with both flat tappet and hydraulic roller cams. This is because hydraulic rollers can be made from two possible materials and either of those materials requires a different gear than the flat tappet cam. Regardless, a steel gear is not compatible with a cast iron flat tappet cam.

Distributor Gear Materials:

1. Cast Iron

2. Composite (offers great life, conforms well to the mating cam gear, and is compatible with ANY camshaft gear material)

3. Melonized or hardened steel (material that OEMs use with factory roller cams; many aftermarket distributor manufacturers use these as the default gears for their distributors)

4. Bronze (conforms well to the mating camshaft gear and will not damage the camshaft gear, but it is a self sacrificing gear intended to be used in race applications only and should be replaced about once a year)


If you have a cast iron hydraulic or solid flat tappet cam, your distributor gear options are:

1. Cast iron distributor gear

2. Composite distributor gear


If you have an austempered ductile iron hydraulic or solid roller cam, your two options are:

1. Melonized or hardened steel distributor gear

2. Composite distributor gear


If you have a billet steel hydraulic or solid roller cam, your two options are:

1. Bronze distributor gear

2. Composite distributor gear


COMP Cams® recommends the composite gear because it is compatible with all camshaft gears – flat tappet, austempered cast iron cores, and billet cores. If the steel gear is not hardened, it is not compatible with either of the roller cam types.

Note: If you have an austempered core hydraulic roller cam and a .500” shaft distributor with a steel gear, verify with the manufacturer of the distributor that the steel gear they use is a melonized or hardened steel material and it will work fine.

Note the differences in materials here --- between austempered ductile iron vs billet steel cam core.

I surely can be accused many a time of having analysis paralysis, but I'll take over-analysis any time over not thinking it through.

We have been asking so many people, builders, drivers, crew members, bla bla bla and it's pretty much been bronze and a few supporters for a composite with mixed results.

Yeah that gear guide is the text from the link I posted a page or 2 back. That made me feel a lot better I guess.

Bottom line is we now have 1 of each of the 2 gears that are made to be run with my cam. And we will be checking the oil and gear wear here often in the near future to make sure all is well.

I do appreciate everyone's comments and advice -- these discussions are far more rewarding than all the pictures and videos -- esp when they help prevent making the mistakes others have made and avoid future carnage. :cheers:

Greg, I was just giving you a little hell about relying on these tech guys. I've had very little success with that. They usually have a very limited window of knowledge and have a special interest in mind.

I think you are making the safe decision for the camshaft using a bronze or plastic gear. I've seen bad feedback on both so it's a toss up. As long as you check it often like a valve lash as Greg mentioned. The main thing is you took my advice and plugged the bypass. IMO the brass AND plastic gear are likely going to wear quickly and the debris would have gone through the bearings and caused an engine failure in the near future. It's just a compromise all the way around.

I absolutely wouldn't remove the orings from the distributor. Your bearings and valvetrain are much more important that your gear. I've seen people file a slot in the bottom pop out for a little extra spray.

i friggin hate the ups and downs of these cars. i just hope to see it running well at RTTC.

Tim

I do agree Todd -- lots of times any type of tech support can be cheap labor (especially when dealing with large companies) with little to zero direct experience with the products. It's just a gamble pure and simple. A bronze should work and a composite should work... but which lasts longer? $10 question at the moment!

Thanks Tim... I think we have a good plan in place with backup! :cheers: See ya there.

It's why GM and FORD etc has zillions of engineers... and they put 100's of thousands of test miles on their products before they hit the streets.

Actually what all of this should show all of us - is to have some respect for just how well OEM products (Chevys and Fords etc) work and how we rely on their reliability.

Think about a ZR1 motor.... 638 HP WITH A FACTORY WARRANTY... and all you do is change the oil. Pretty spectacular in my book.

RE: Tech guys.

I do my research at the big trade shows and car shows where there are real adults in management positions in attendance. I also hit a couple of competitors and play dumb and listen to their answers to the same questions. The world isn't perfect - but it can be 'okay'. ;)

Just make sure your camshaft end play is correct. Too much movement front to back will destroy the gear real fast. I've seen the bronze gears fail in a hundred miles or less.

I've never had great luck with the bronze gears but they have their purpose. I don't think you can wait a year to check them though. I use the melonized GM gears on all of mine, including billet rollers; however, the billet rollers I used had a cast distributor gear pressed on as requested by me. DO NOT use a steel gear on a billet core without the cast gear on the cam.

In your case I think you should have good luck with either polymer or bronze, but make sure the cam end play is spot on and I'd inspect it often, at least initially.

Good advice on the end play Jody.

Guys that aren't used to rollers can often overlook that important little detail.

Jody & Greg -- thanks guys.

Will check the gear early and often here as well to make sure everything is "lined up" right.

Gonna try to put some hard miles (is there another kind? :D) on it this weekend, bed/test the new brakes, etc.

I'm gonna try the tape on the camera trick tmrw and see if that cures the clicking. Thanks for the tip.

Have you tried out that LCD "BacPac" add-on yet? That thing looks pretty cool and I might get one if there's positive feedback on it.

I want to thank Gaetano (Track Junky) for offering to let me use his car hauler to take my car down to RTTC. That was an unsolicited offer from a guy I have yet to meet in person. We've shared emails and PMs and our Norcal get together was recently postponed, but I just wanted to publicly thank him for that nice gesture. Another one of the great contacts I have made on this forum. :thumbsup:

Thanks again G, but I am determined and NEED to do this road trip thing! :D

Pretty decent weekend of forward progress and street testing as we get ready for the RTTC road trip. We are down to mostly "minor" things on the white board to-do list, but every time 1 or 2 things get erased, 2 or 3 things replace those. That's how it goes.

--Changed/inspected oil a 2nd time since distributor gear broke last weekend. This oil looked and the oil filter was cut open and looked great as well. Bronze gear doing it's job so far. Will check again either in Bakersfield or in Irvine after a few hundred miles of wear.

--Wilwood e-brake kit installed

--Played with prop valve and dialed in maximum rear brake bias and still could not achieve rear brake lockup. May not have optimum MC bore. Looking into that now, but brakes are much improved as expected over previous disc/drum setup.

--Car was stalling when stomping on brakes. Adjusted various carb settings.

After the last of the street testing runs on a sparse commercial road, a few cops starting heading to the area. I'm sure I had nothing to do with it. :_paranoid

But, one of the worst things I could have done for that day was ride shotgun in Rich's flagship build car (for his buddy/customer Eric David). It's very similar to Todd's 69 in a lot of ways, and it ruined me for the day. What a beast and beautiful car (Eric's on left, Todd's on right for those that just registered yesterday). We are working on convincing him to come to RTTC with us. :thumbsup:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f.../SEMA10001.jpg

ASSume your pedal ratio is at 6:1 or better?

Also - what M/C bore you running?

Eric has a gorgeous car. I mentioned how loose the track is at El Toro and how he would likely do some damage when he was here in November. It's my fault. :D That photo is the perfect example of different blacks. His has a blue tinge while mine is dark.

As we discussed, it's the pads. I can lock up my rears easily with a larger bore master cylinder and my Carbotechs. It's an amazing difference. I ended up needing to dial out about 5-6 turns. They are an autocross pad with good initial bite. The wilwood pads they send with the street kits don't squeak and have great life. They just don't work that great. My rear pads were nearly brand new after 3-4k on them. I haven't had them squeak like my front road race pads.

Anytime Dave. After all the help that was offered to me from the guys on this site to try and get me to Optima it was a no brainer. After reading about your distributor gear woes I didn't want to see you not make it to RTTC.

Good luck and hope you do well.:thumbsup:

ASS is right. I do not know. I remember reading some posts about this awhile back, but did not do anything with it.

Since the car was a pretty well running car when I got it (minus about 12 or so drivetrain leaks), we have just made changes and see how the results were on the fly.

We are not sure what the bore on the MC is either... it is not an aftermarket piece -- some GM stock style piece, but not sure off what year or model. That could/should be one of our next steps in this process... I think.

We are down to prioritizing final things to check/adjust/replace/etc with less than 2 weeks to go for the road trip, and this may not make the cut. If not, we will continue to look at this when we get back.

Yeah it is. And shame on you for scaring away another nice car. Haha. I'd be hesitant too with such a beautiful paint and body.

Yep, I believe you on the pads. Again, one of the final things to decide to leave as is for the trip/racing. Not sure I will get to it before next week but definitely on the short to-do list and will happen soon.

You think I should change pads before proceeding with a possible MC change? Guess it would make sense to know what MC I got first huh... :lol:

Yep, a great niche of car guys. Thanks for the well wishes man. I just hope to do well, learn about my driving and my car, and avoid carnage! :woot:

If you can lock the fronts, you should be able to lock the rears...

Haven't been able to lock the fronts yet... maybe I need to get back on those calf raises.

Seriously -- I wouldn't be tracking the car if you can't make the brakes work beyond tire grip... you're asking for trouble.

Another ASSumable question. Did anyone BED the pads in? And do the brakes work better after you put some heat in them?

That last question is most important... because if they don't... you'll be having one of those off track excursions that nobody wants. :D

I agree, you should be able to achieve front lock up unless your master cylinder is way oversize. Like 1 1/8.

Yeah we need to get this figured out by next week!

I wouldn't I EXACTLY followed this bedding procedure on the Wilwood pads that came with my new rear disc kit, but have done a variation of it. :/

http://www.wilwood.com/TechTip/TechPadBedTip.aspx

Another thing is the front Wilwood discs and Brand ?? pads were on the car when I got them and we have never even inspected them. I remember talking about doing that and I was considering getting better pads recently but caught up with motor stuff and just haven't gotten to it. And now here we are less than 2 weeks from Go time.

Honestly I haven't done enough brake testing to know if they get better or not with more heat. We have been playing and adjusting numerous things at all once unfortunately. Not ideal I know, but it's how it has gone.

We really need to pull the MC on the car and see what heck it is.

Thanks to both of ya for looking out. Most of this stuff is all new for me.

P.S. is it worth it, and/or even too late now, to follow that pad bedding procedure to the tee?

If you haven't induced front lock up, you really don't know if your proportioning valve is adjusted correctly. Before you do anything, take it back out and stomp on the brakes going 60. The fronts should lock up even cold. Just don't flat spot your tires. You need to figure out your threshold braking anyway.

10-4 I'm on it!

Your time spent with the M3 and the P-car...known now as 'The lost years'.


:P

I haven't tried the BacPac yet since most of my video is motorcycles right now, but I can see where it would be very handy at times, especially for optimizing the camera position and composing still photos.

Did the tape help?

Yeah, and esp with the P-car, the lost $$ years. :lol:

As much as I liked those cars when I had them, a muscle car just has so much more soul. :thumbsup:

Yeah looks like a great thing to use while you're out recording in the "field" or at an event.

The tape did seem to help I think, but I also think the volume seems a bit "muted" now maybe?? Not sure why or even if it's related because I didn't change anything else at all.

Here's a before and after 1 week apart. Don't mind the squeaking in the 2nd video... that is some roll cage noise we are addressing now.

before tape



after tape

Beyond the camera which isn't too bad, that motor sounds damn good! Reinforces my 383 plan for the future, I like old school.

To clarify:

- The camera is a GoPro Hero Wide non-HD?

- Where do you have tape?

Well thanks. It's a revver for sure!

I have the HD Hero.

I put 2 strips over both buttons on the cam, that's it.

Sounds like a DZ on steroids! :thumbsup:

They have also had an issue with a lose fitting lcd display lens, might try testing with tape on it. Not sure on the reduced sound level issue.

Are you running the open back on the case?

It should sound even better when I replace the current 7k rev limit pill with the 7400 pill that will be here next week. :unibrow:

Yeah that makes sense. I only had tape on the 2 buttons. I just added bigger pieces on the back and top. Will see if that works.

What do you mean running the open back? Mine closes in and covers the cam on all 4 sides. I don't see any other way to secure it. Is yours different?