Again, it is always good to hear both sides.

This is something for the readers to decide on their own. We have made our decisions, and are just posting our views on the subject.

Always good to discuss it, even if we will never agree.. No harm, no foul..:cheers:

Just food for thought for all to read. they may agree with John, they may agree with me...No sweat. I am not here to change anyone's mind, but to just point out my views. :lateral: :thumbsup:

I am. Perhaps it's just my overly optimistic view of other people, but I think the government employees who work with and publish these numbers do the best they can to make them as accurate as possible. I'm sure that errors and oversights occur from time to time, but I don't believe there's any conspiracy here.

I can tell you that I have worked for a couple of federal government agencies and that there is plenty of ineptitude. I honestly can say that at one agency, there was easily 70-80% of it's employees that went out of their way to not be as accurate as they could be or at the very least, did not do things to a minimal standard.

Is that indicative of the whole system. Maybe not, but it would be hard to believe that a certain part of the government has found all the best (moral) citizens.

I, like you John, don't understand why the same people trust everything out of their government, and then don't trust anything out of their government. All the same people that opposed a Bush war agenda now support Obama and his war agenda.

It's a bit whimsical in tone, but somebody tried to answer that exact question:

http://business.time.com/2012/07/24/...are/?hpt=hp_c2

An excerpt:

Blandly labeled the Inclusive Wealth Report 2012, this impressive research project, which is super fun to explore, is the first serious attempt to measure the total wealth of the planet’s richest countries. Not income, mind you, which is what Gross Domestic Product (GDP) refers to, but rather total wealth, i.e., the comprehensive value of the physical assets (buildings + roads+ equipment + railroad tracks + etc.), human capital (population + education + skills + earning potential + life expectancy) and natural resources (land+ trees + minerals + fossil fuels). As you , the winner, by a long shot, is the United States, with an inclusive wealth figure of roughly $118 trillion (in 2000 dollars). That’s more than double the total of the next wealthiest country, Japan ($55 trillion), and almost six times the cumulative value of all the tea plus everything else in China ($20 trillion).

And another:

More to the point, and despite what you might hear during this year’s election cycle, more traditional measures of indebtedness are actually telling a positive story. Last quarter, public and private debt as a share of the national economy dropped for the first time in about three years, from 3.73 times GDP to 3.36 times GDP. We have a long way to go, but as a country we have actually been “de-leveraging”—paying down debt—which is one of the reasons the economy has been sputtering. It’s an ugly and painful process, but it’s necessary and working.

It’s also a lot better than selling Rhode Island to the highest bidder.

Whether it's about a conspiracy or not is a red herring. It's a symptom of a bureaucracy. And that exists in business and in govt, whether we want to believe that or not. But yes, I do think that is part of the problem. Some people wear rose colored glasses looking at the world. I don't think that is realistic at all.

Take for example the Penn St scandal. Yes most of involved in that college are diligent workers are innocent, but look at the level of abuse that was taking place. And look at Sandusky's wife. And this was going on for a long time. There was some serious denial taking place. I'm sure there's people who still might think Sandusky is innocent.

Unfortunately, criminals, fraud, corruption, obedience, ignorance and apathy do exist. Especially in a bureaucracy.

Edit:
This is an example what I'm talking about. Often the worst rises to top and gravitates to govt. Does he sound honest to you?

Disgraced Former Penn State University President Now Working for U.S. Government
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...x5BX_blog.html

Bringing this back on topic.... For those who have not seen this great exchange, here are heavyweights, going head to head!

And you really think "the government" can do ANYTHING efficiently? Wait until the Obamacare debacle gets rolling... I can only imagine the size of the fraud and waste.

This is the IRS for crying out loud! If any agency should be on top of it's game it should be this one!



http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...3RX_story.html

It depends. I agree with you that this is unfortunate and dismaying. But: to what are we comparing? Un-normalized numbers without comparison metrics usually make it hard to make good decisions. Has the problem grown worse? Or has the problem gotten better? We don't know from this story. Nor do we know how this sort of thing compares to other large entities, like corporations or the military, or other governments. Making any conclusion from just this information is a leap to judgment.

In related news, we have this:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...dget-cuts.html

An excerpt:

The Internal Revenue Service is reducing spending in anticipation of budget cuts for the current fiscal year that haven’t taken effect, Commissioner Douglas Shulman said in a letter to lawmakers today.

He warned of a “noticeable degradation” of taxpayer services and enforcement if Congress follows through on a plan to cut about $500 million from the agency’s budget for fiscal 2012.

By taxpayer services does he mean "collection"? Because last time I checked that's the only service the IRS offers. :lol: If that is the case, I for one, welcome a 'degradation' in 'services'.

The less money taken by the govt, results in more money left in the economy. And that's a good thing.