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-   -   PWM cooling fan(s) control using ECM (https://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40215)

andrewb70 09-26-2016 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift (Post 646214)
Doing a Connect and Cruise LSA. Is it confirmed that I can _not_ control the fans with PWM with a GMPP E67?
JP and I have discussed this quite a bit. When he was doing the white LS9 Camaro he had to do all kinds of BS to get it to work. He called GM and got some unclear information and was told PWM is not possible on the GMPP harness kits. This is in contrast to Scot's experience, but Scot's kit is much older.

I suspect at some point GM changed the firmware/OS (pure speculation) to render PWM not functional. JP ended up getting a used E67, refreshing it with a Corvette LS9 OS and was able to make it work.

Hopefully JP jumps in here to clarify, but that's my recollection.

Andrew

dontlifttoshift 09-26-2016 03:12 PM
Yeah, that's what I read, I was hoping that maybe it was just a Florida problem. :) Trying to make this install as OEM as possible and thought it would be a nice touch.

andrewb70 09-26-2016 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift (Post 646217)
Yeah, that's what I read, I was hoping that maybe it was just a Florida problem. :) Trying to make this install as OEM as possible and thought it would be a nice touch.
Donny,

Presumably this is for a customer, in which case I would encourage you to make this work for him/her...It really makes for a much nicer driving experience. It may be a Florida problem, so you should try it out for yourself.

Andrew

samckitt 09-26-2016 07:17 PM
Scot's kit is much older? Scot me? What kit is older? My GMPP controller kit? How do I find how old it is?

Yes I'm running the fan through a PWM control box from a GMPP LS3 controller. Friend of mine is also. Had to add some wires to the harness, and reprogram ECM for it.

andrewb70 09-26-2016 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by samckitt (Post 646236)
Scot's kit is much older? Scot me? What kit is older? My GMPP controller kit? How do I find how old it is?

Yes I'm running the fan through a PWM control box from a GMPP LS3 controller. Friend of mine is also. Had to add some wires to the harness, and reprogram ECM for it.
I recall you saying that your kit is from around 2010...I could be wrong in my recollections...

Mine is from 2008 but I have not tried to implement PWM on my GMPP kit.

Andrew

samckitt 09-27-2016 03:59 AM
I bought mine Round 2010/2011 from another member here. It was still new in box, but not sure how long it sat on the shelf.

Can the full OS on the ECM be reprogrammed from HP tuners vs just tuning it?

dontlifttoshift 09-27-2016 05:19 AM
Andrew, I agree, it's the only way to fly. I just finished a car and we ran the fan PWM, ac pressure sensor and everything, but that was with a Speartech harness and E67.

I just don't want to start from scratch with the rest of the tune if we have to reflash another ecm. Further complicating the situation is fact that this an Erod crate engine and must pass emissions when it lands in California.

mikels 09-27-2016 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewb70 (Post 646216)
JP and I have discussed this quite a bit. When he was doing the white LS9 Camaro he had to do all kinds of BS to get it to work. He called GM and got some unclear information and was told PWM is not possible on the GMPP harness kits. This is in contrast to Scot's experience, but Scot's kit is much older.

I suspect at some point GM changed the firmware/OS (pure speculation) to render PWM not functional. JP ended up getting a used E67, refreshing it with a Corvette LS9 OS and was able to make it work.

Hopefully JP jumps in here to clarify, but that's my recollection.

Andrew
While there has been several 'releases' of calibrations for the LS crate engines, the software has remained the same.

So enabling PWM fan control is matter of wiring properly and enabling in calibration.

Dave

samckitt 09-29-2016 08:42 AM
Somewhere in this thread is the pinout for the E67 with callout on which spots to add wires & pins to for the PWM functionality. I have the full pinout chart if anyone wants it. I also have a PDF with instructions on how to disassemble the ECM connectors.

vannatta20 10-01-2016 10:13 PM
Anyone have any luck getting PWM output from an E38 ecu with a camaro OS? No matter what settings I use it will not output a signal. If I use a truck OS I get a PWM signal easily. The truck OS does not see AC pressure. The car OS does. This is why I need to use a car OS. I used an oscilloscope to verify

dontlifttoshift 11-28-2016 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikels (Post 646296)
While there has been several 'releases' of calibrations for the LS crate engines, the software has remained the same.

So enabling PWM fan control is matter of wiring properly and enabling in calibration.

Dave
Apparently this is not the case. PWM does not work with the GMPP controller we have either. Yes, it is wired properly. Yes, I turned on PWM with HPTuners. No, the fan does not operate with PWM.

Temporarily wired a relay and switched back to discrete while I come up with a solution. Probably will go the same route as JP did and get a new ECM and rewrite the calibration over. I would like to find a better solution than that, if it exists. I have a couple of installs coming down the pipeline where I would prefer to use the PWM control and the GMPP harness.

Dear GM,

That's pretty stupid.

Sincerely,
Hot Rodders

andrewb70 11-28-2016 07:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift (Post 649570)
Apparently this is not the case. PWM does not work with the GMPP controller we have either. Yes, it is wired properly. Yes, I turned on PWM with HPTuners. No, the fan does not operate with PWM.

Temporarily wired a relay and switched back to discrete while I come up with a solution. Probably will go the same route as JP did and get a new ECM and rewrite the calibration over. I would like to find a better solution than that, if it exists. I have a couple of installs coming down the pipeline where I would prefer to use the PWM control and the GMPP harness.

Dear GM,

That's pretty stupid.

Sincerely,
Hot Rodders
Donny,

Thanks for the confirmation. I was pretty sure that JP wasn't being a dumbass...

It would be nice to know if there was a change at some point with the GMPP ECUs. Clearly some early ones worked, while the later ones do not. It would be nice to know when the change over took place.

It would also be nice to know if the change is hardware, firmware, OS, or something else. Maybe GM is selling so many of the ECU harness packages that it was feasible to make a dedicated (lower cost) ECU? Seems pointless, but I can see some bean counter saving $10 per ECU by removing the PWM driver (or whatever it might be called).

Andrew

dontlifttoshift 11-28-2016 08:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewb70 (Post 649575)
Donny,

Thanks for the confirmation. I was pretty sure that JP wasn't being a dumbass...

Andrew
:) I didn't think so either, I was really hoping he had a faulty ecm along with some bad info from GM.

Mikels, if you see this and still have any connections, could you dig into this a little further and try to figure out what changed at what it takes to make it right?

andrewb70 11-28-2016 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift (Post 649577)
:) I didn't think so either, I was really hoping he had a faulty ecm along with some bad info from GM.

Mikels, if you see this and still have any connections, could you dig into this a little further and try to figure out what changed at what it takes to make it right?
I have a really early GMPP (2008) ECU and harness kit. I'd love to implement this and also add a data point, but I don't have HP tuners...

Andrew

mikentosh 11-29-2016 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vannatta20 (Post 646530)
Anyone have any luck getting PWM output from an E38 ecu with a camaro OS? No matter what settings I use it will not output a signal. If I use a truck OS I get a PWM signal easily. The truck OS does not see AC pressure. The car OS does. This is why I need to use a car OS. I used an oscilloscope to verify
This would explain the same issue I was having earlier. I was also working with an E38 out of a Camaro. Would love to hear a response on this as we are running the setup with discrete fans on relays now and its annoying :shakehead:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikentosh (Post 629784)
Wondering if anybody has troubleshooting advice for the PWM signal coming from an E38 ECU? I'm not seeing any PWM signal coming out from X1 pin 58.

I took my multimeter and put black probe to DkGrn wire coming from X1 pin 58, and red probe to battery positive terminal, and set to DC volts. Turning key on I can see the voltage go up to about 1.2V but regardless of toggling fans and duty cycle in HP Tuners I don't see any change. I would expect to see either ~5V or ~12V across here but do not. I didn't even bother to switch my multimeter over to duty cycle measurement, but assumed without the higher voltage its not working.

Any ideas on further troubleshooting? Pin 58 is a ground PWM signal correct?

gofastwclass 11-30-2016 05:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikentosh (Post 649708)
This would explain the same issue I was having earlier. I was also working with an E38 out of a Camaro. Would love to hear a response on this as we are running the setup with discrete fans on relays now and its annoying :shakehead:
What year Camaro?
I have a 10 SS with an E38 I'm willing to experiment on using HP Tuners as time allows.

mikentosh 11-30-2016 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gofastwclass (Post 649721)
What year Camaro?
I have a 10 SS with an E38 I'm willing to experiment on using HP Tuners as time allows.
Mine is out of a '13 1LE Camaro.

andrewb70 11-30-2016 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikentosh (Post 649747)
Mine is out of a '13 1LE Camaro.
Mike, the signal is ground, so your volt meter needs the other side go to a hot +12v source. Are you doing that?

Andrew

mikentosh 12-01-2016 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewb70 (Post 649783)
Mike, the signal is ground, so your volt meter needs the other side go to a hot +12v source. Are you doing that?

Andrew
Yup, this is how I was measuring it.

We have moved the whole motor and E38 setup into another truck and still have pin 58 with a wire tap ready, if somebody solves this. These last few comments have us considering flashing the OS on the computer over to the Corvette setup. Does anybody have pointers on how that can be accomplished with HP tuners?

andrewb70 12-22-2016 04:58 PM
If anyone needs a controller with the connector and a Yazaki connector for the power feed, send me a PM.

Andrew

Larry R 04-17-2017 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift
We just did a Dominator in a 32 and we used a holley 500 PSI pressure transducer. This allowed us to skip the binary switch and the gm pressure sensor and do it with one sensor. We control the pwm fan and control compressor clutch engagement (high and low pressure cut off) through the ecm.

So far, it works. (End quote)

Originally I posted this under another topic, but thought it might fit better here.

I have a HP, not a Dominator, so maybe this won't work for me, also I am new at this so forgive me if I ask dumb questions. I have been pondering your solution and trying to figure out how you did this. I assume the 500PSI transducer is somehow plugged into the A/C line, presumably on the high side. The output from that transducer must somehow get into the ECU, (Inputs?), and set up to protect the A/C system in the event of too high or too low system pressure. Then is there a set point to turn on the fan, or speed it up, when the pressure reaches a particular threshold? Then is the cooling fan controlled by the ECU through a PWM for regular (or non-air conditioned) operation? If this is the set up, it would seem that some relays or diodes be necessary to prevent back feed of electricity.

Any assistance you can offer will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Larry

As an addendum, my '57 Chevy uses two Spal fans wired in both series and parallel, controlled by two temperature switches of different temperature values. At the lower temperature the fans come on wired in series, so they run at approximately alt speed. When the higher temperature is reached the fans which over to parallel wiring, therefore running at full speed. The trinary switch will override any operation or no operation of the fans and go to full RPM for the duration of what is commanded by the trinary switch. This system works well, but I do like the idea of a system that will keep the engine operating temperature more stable on a reduction of fan operation that is offered by using PWM. My Studebaker is still in the build up phase so it would not be that difficult to set it up with a PWM.

dontlifttoshift 04-17-2017 11:34 AM
Yep, transducer goes in the high side and becomes an input.

The wire that runs from your AC controls to the compressor also becomes an input.

Then a wire runs from the ECU to the compressor, that is an output. Also need an output from the ECU to the C6 pwm fan controller.

The output to the compressor will not run unless it sees 12v in from AC controls _and_ pressure is between 30 and 400 psi, matching Vintage Air's cutoff on their trinary.

The fan control side has been covered in this thread already.

The problem you may have with the HP is limited number of I/O available.

Larry R 04-17-2017 12:16 PM
Many thanks. So far I have I have not used any of the input/outputs of my HP ECU, so hopefully I will have enough. What method did you use to tap into the A/C line to mount the 500psi transducer?

dontlifttoshift 04-17-2017 01:21 PM
We machined an 1/8" npt bung and welded it into a fitting near the drier. There may be a more elegant solution than that, I never bothered to look.

samckitt 04-17-2017 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry R (Post 657454)
Many thanks. So far I have I have not used any of the input/outputs of my HP ECU, so hopefully I will have enough. What method did you use to tap into the A/C line to mount the 500psi transducer?
Got these at the junk yard, gave one to friend, he soldered/braized it onto the AC line, worked perfectly.

I think I paid $5 a piece for the connector pigtail, sensor, & segment of hose.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...04653_edit.jpg

dontlifttoshift 04-17-2017 03:45 PM
Right, for the GM pressure sensor that is one way to do it.

The Holley sensor is 1/8" npt.

Larry R 04-26-2017 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewb70 (Post 645029)
The information below is for a Holley HP or Dominator system, but I thought it would be handy to post it here.


So recently a buddy of mine presented me with a challenge. He has a street car that uses a Dominator ECU and he is using the C6 fan controller, just like I am. However, his car has A/C and he wanted to have the fan turn on at a predefined duty cycle whenever the A/C kicks on. I also know that some of you have the desire to be able to toggle the fan to full speed while at the track, and with the configuration that I previously posted, this is not possible. There may be other ways to do this, but this is what I came up with and it seems to work very well. I am testing it with a manual trigger through a virtual switch on my Holley 7" dash, but any switch will work, including a A/C compressor trigger.

First you need to create an Input and assign it to a pin (hopefully y'all know how to do that already). In my case I created a 20v sensor, but I see no reason why creating a 5v sensor wouldn't work either...

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/IO.jpg

Then you have to configure the sensor. I chose the Custom 20v from the dropdown menu and gave the sensor a minimum value of 0 and a max of 1. Essentially what I am doing is creating a binary switch. The reason for doing this is that simple 12+ or Ground triggers are not selectable in the PWM table, but custom sensors are!

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/sensor1.JPG

Here is the bottom of the screen...On the bottom scale, half the values are given a value of zero and the rest ramps up from 10-20v. Then I configure voltage values of zero to be zero and voltage values above 10v to have a value of 1.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/sensor2.JPG


Now we can move to the PWM output screen and configure it. The Y-axis remains CTS but instead of having MPH on the X-axis, as I used to have, now I select the new A/C sensor that I created. The resulting table looks like this:

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/PWM2.JPG


This essentially splits the PWM table into to different conditions and they function independently, based on whether the trigger we created is ON (value 1) or OFF (value 0)...This set-up should work just fine for anyone that wants to turn their fan on at the drag strip...but it creates a different situation if you want the fan on when the A/C is on. With this configuration, even at highway speeds, the fan will be running at 50% (or whatever we assign to the cell of value 1 on the X-axis), which isn't really needed or desirable. In order to fix this, I have created conditional sensor triggers that will activate the PWM table.

http://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/hefi/triggers.JPG

I have set MPH as a trigger and set it to activate the table at speeds below 30 mph, and I also set the table to activate when temperatures are above 200 degrees. So in my friends case, with the A/C ON the fan will operate at 50% while at speeds below 30mph. Above that speed the fan is OFF, even when the A/C ON, however, if the CTS goes above 200 degrees, the table PWM table is activated again. Also keep in mind that the whole left side of the PWM table can have different values in all the cells. So you can have a minimum of 50%, but if CTS starts climbing, higher fan speeds can be commended.

With the A/C OFF, again, the right side of the PWM table is activated below 30 mph (this of course can be changed) or when the CTS goes above 200 degrees (this too can be changed).

This configuration should work for different set-ups and scenarios but the trigger values will have to be tuned to your particular combinations. This is due to variance in fans, hoods, thermostats, etc....

Any and all comments are welcome...

Andrew
I am trying to replicate or at least to use what you created here for my car. I cannot get the LH column on the calibration table to accept the number 1 as you have in your post. Also you will note it says "A/C (x10)" but I did not put that in so I do not know where that came from. Any help you can offer will be appreciated. Larry

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/s...cu%20graph.jpg

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/s...0graph%201.jpg

andrewb70 04-26-2017 02:55 PM
The input needs to be "custom 20v" not custom 5v.

Andrew

andrewb70 04-26-2017 06:44 PM
You actually don't have to do any of this if you have a linear AC pressure sensor. You can just create a AC pressure input and use it and coolant temp as your two axes of the PWM table. You can also add logic to turn the fan off above a certain speed and turn the fans on again if AC pressure or coolant temp rise, regardless of how fast you're moving.

What I showed is better suited for a system where there is no pressure sensor in the AC, but there is an input to the ECU to let it know that the compressor is ON.

Andrew

Larry R 04-26-2017 08:03 PM
Ok, Thanks. I assumed since I am using a linear pressure sensor that is 5 volts that I needed to have the value at 5 volts; I will set it at 20 volts. I would like to have my dual Spal fans run through the PWM, (I have the Ford version PWM), but be able to have the fan run a little faster when the A/C pressure rises to values near to what a trinary switch does.

This forum has been very enlightening for me, thanks to you and others. Larry

badazz81z28 06-25-2017 07:32 PM
Anyone know the pin out for the fan control on the E67? I can't see it on my pin out...called something else?

andrewb70 07-29-2017 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift (Post 657453)
Yep, transducer goes in the high side and becomes an input.

The wire that runs from your AC controls to the compressor also becomes an input.

Then a wire runs from the ECU to the compressor, that is an output. Also need an output from the ECU to the C6 pwm fan controller.

The output to the compressor will not run unless it sees 12v in from AC controls _and_ pressure is between 30 and 400 psi, matching Vintage Air's cutoff on their trinary.

The fan control side has been covered in this thread already.

The problem you may have with the HP is limited number of I/O available.
Donny,

Why is there a need for the wire from the AC control to be an input to the HP?

I am trying to help Larry, but I don't know enough about AC systems, although I am good with the Holley system.

He has a 0-5v sensor installed in the AC system, but there seems to be very little variability in pressure. I sent you a PM on PT...if you have time...

Andrew

andrewb70 09-03-2017 03:55 PM
Does anyone know anything about the PWM configuration on the new LT1 and LT4 GMPP kits that use the e92 ECU?

Presumably there is a PWM output, but maybe GMPP did away with it on the retrofit kits (as they did on the e67 kits, as John Parsons experienced). I also know that the new generation of fans the WPM controller is built into the fans, so no intermediate controller (like the C6) is needed.

Andrew

PTAddict 09-04-2017 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewb70 (Post 665020)
Does anyone know anything about the PWM configuration on the new LT1 and LT4 GMPP kits that use the e92 ECU?

Presumably there is a PWM output, but maybe GMPP did away with it on the retrofit kits (as they did on the e67 kits, as John Parsons experienced). I also know that the new generation of fans the WPM controller is built into the fans, so no intermediate controller (like the C6) is needed.

Andrew
I have an LT4 and the GMPP controller kit, and a late model CTS-V cooling fan, but we're a month or two from finishing wiring and getting things running. I am hoping that I can reprogram the e92 with HPTuners to do PWM control as it does in a CTS-V - we'll see. Why GM would block PWM control in the crate motor ECUs is beyond me ...

andrewb70 09-04-2017 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTAddict (Post 665060)
I have an LT4 and the GMPP controller kit, and a late model CTS-V cooling fan, but we're a month or two from finishing wiring and getting things running. I am hoping that I can reprogram the e92 with HPTuners to do PWM control as it does in a CTS-V - we'll see. Why GM would block PWM control in the crate motor ECUs is beyond me ...
Thanks for chiming in! Please keep this thread updated. I know from another LT4 build that the stock GMPP fan configuration is discrete fan control, with a Hi and Low fan setting. PWM would be way better, especially if you're using the new CTSV 800watt fan.

Have you found a source for the Yazaki connector and terminals for the fan?

Andrew

samckitt 09-06-2017 04:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badazz81z28 (Post 661253)
Anyone know the pin out for the fan control on the E67? I can't see it on my pin out...called something else?
The A/C pressure sensor is wired in at pins J3-21 (reference ground), J3-37 (reference 5V), and J3-57 (signal).

The PWM control wire is J3-64 (FANSPD:IMTVPS)

ProServ 09-07-2017 11:03 AM
Fan connectors
 
I haven't seen the CTS-V fan. Does it use the same connectors as the C7 Corvette and the aftermarket released Spal DC brushless fans? If so I have those connectors in stock as kits with terminals seals etc.

Here is what I have:

http://photos.proservsolutions.com/F...23211&mt=Photo

Multiple terminals and seals are provided to account for different gauge wire applications.

Jason Haines
Product & Service Solutions LLC
[email protected]
www.proservsolutions.com


Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewb70 (Post 665062)
Thanks for chiming in! Please keep this thread updated. I know from another LT4 build that the stock GMPP fan configuration is discrete fan control, with a Hi and Low fan setting. PWM would be way better, especially if you're using the new CTSV 800watt fan.

Have you found a source for the Yazaki connector and terminals for the fan?

Andrew

PTAddict 09-09-2017 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewb70 (Post 665062)
Thanks for chiming in! Please keep this thread updated. I know from another LT4 build that the stock GMPP fan configuration is discrete fan control, with a Hi and Low fan setting. PWM would be way better, especially if you're using the new CTSV 800watt fan.

Have you found a source for the Yazaki connector and terminals for the fan?

Andrew
I got the connector from Summit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SPU-IXSBLYAZPT

Edit: the above part number is complete connector, terminals, and harness.

The GMPP controller is indeed set up for discrete control as it comes, I'm just assuming I can change that like on most GM ECU.

Scott

andrewb70 09-11-2017 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTAddict (Post 665379)
I got the connector from Summit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SPU-IXSBLYAZPT

Edit: the above part number is complete connector, terminals, and harness.

The GMPP controller is indeed set up for discrete control as it comes, I'm just assuming I can change that like on most GM ECU.

Scott
Scott,

Thanks for the info!!!

I am eager to see if you can change the tune in the e92 for PWM fan control.

Andrew

blake-b 09-11-2017 03:56 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Has the E38 been figured out for PWM fan control?

I have a 2010 Camaro and a radiator coming with twin Spal brushless fans. I called Spal and they wouldn't tell me anything because of an NDA with GM as they are an OEM supplier. I called the place building the radiator and was told the same thing but they'd see what, if anything, they could find out because they have not installed in a 2010 Camaro.

Dave Steck (DSX Tuning) is a friend of mine and I contacted him about it. He said the Corvette and Camaro E38 OS are the same but have differing CANbus communication. He said he sees no reason I can't control the fans with PWM because the OS has PWM Electric as a choice. That is a screenshot of my actual tune showing it.

Unless I missed something in this thread (quite possible) I haven't seen anyone successfully running PWM in a 5th Gen Camaro and an E38 ECM.

It would be nice to be able to just drop the new fans in, connect the wires and go.

ETA: I don't know which fans I'm getting as the place (wizard cooling) is going to use the biggest ones that will fit. 14" diameter and 3. 25" thickness was mentioned. I am not aware of any other aftermarket 5th Gen radiator having 14" fans though.


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