Congrats Matt, it's definitely worthy of the award. It's good to see you out there using it!

Ok, so I figured I'd update this thread because cars are never done. In the last couple months I've learned a lot, and then realized how much I still don't know. First of all, after going to Del Mar I took the car up to Goodguys Costa Mesa and beat on it around their little autocross, got my times down into the realm of mediocrity, and really had a chance to learn the car. The following month in June, my dad and I drove up to Pleasonton with Doug, Chris, Chad and the Stig, whom I think I'll just start referring to as the Socal "mousepack." Long story short we had a great time and I really discovered the weak points on the car.

Now, here is what I learned that might be helpful for everyone with projects using DSE's frame and Quadralink.

1. Don't rush to go to sema reverse the power steering lines on your rack, you will probably destroy its internals, then go about driving it, knowing something in the front suspension, possibly even having to do with the alignment is off, but not knowing what for months.

2. If you have DSE's subframe don't put a 255 tire on the front because you want a low ride height, and are worried about rubbing/scraping. You can't pull off a ton of u-turns with 255s, so just buy the bigger tires and steering stops, or "rack limiters." On the autocross, the car understeered so badly, and had so little front grip that I had a couple runs where I just collected cones. In fact, everyone that's driven the car has overestimated its ability to turn. This leads me to the next thing.

3. It is probably a good idea to invest in one of DSE's rear bars if you have single adjustable coilovers, and plan on even light track duty.

4. Leaky rear axles suck! My passenger side rear axle was leaking so we pulled it. The whole setup is from DSE and uses Moser axles. Out of the box the only seal in the entire system is a tiny band on the bearing. We replaced it... it continued to leak. After that I found the issue to be pretty common, as Moser's bearings have a reputation for being crap. According to the internet folks Moser's bearing don't hold up to heavy abuse and side loading very well. Now, the bearing seemed fine, so I went and got the inner housing seals, which everyone claims solves the problem. These seals work on Mosers housings, and just about every other 9'' ever made, except apparently DSE's. I'm still waiting for DSE to get back to me, which isn't like them, so I suppose I'll call again. Ultimately though, I'm at a bit of an impasse. There was someone on camaros.net suffering from the same issue, and complaining about DSE's housing being out of round, and having a difficult time getting them to fix it. It wouldn't altogether surprise me if this is the case, because virtually all housing have to be straightened after welding. So, should I just find the right axle seals, which I've been looking for for two weeks, and hope it solves the problem, or should I bite the bullet and go big, meaning I'd take just the car up to Currie in Anaheim and have them rework the housing and put tapered bearings in, which hold up much better to abuse.

Oh, and I've done a couple other things like put a clear bra on the car and add a set of hideous mirrors, which I sort of want to get rid of now. I'll post pictures of that stuff soon. In the meantime though, what should I do about the rear axle if I plan on attending track days/driving events?

Matt

Matt -

Please don't take any offense at what I'm going to say --- because it's not personal -- it's just the way it is...

If you can afford to drive a car as wonderful as yours is... then you should be able to just "go get it fixed and fixed right" -- regardless of what the issue is.

So call Currie and go get it "RIGHT"!

No bandaids - that's for school age boys.

:cheers: :woot:

Dump the roller bearings and go to a tapered. You'll need new axles but it's worth the trouble. Once you get the leak fixed, you'll find roller bearings aren't meant for roundy round racing. That was one of the huge contributors to my brake pad knock back. Do you experience a drop in pedal when you race? Sounds like you've had better luck than most.:thumbsup:

Mousepack member Doug R reporting in--LOL. Listen bro, you aren't the only one that found weaknesses with the road trip. Had to replace my waterpump--running the belts too tight--redid the radiator--it got a bit plugged up when I put the stopleak in it to see if it would help the water pump--and low and behold, my lr shock was blown--and the rr axle seal is bad. Do these things just hate us or what? I'd still do the trip all over again--no reservations. How else do you test these cars and get them road worthy? Trial and error. So I'm thinking there's another GG Autocross in Pleasanton at the end of Aug-----

Doug

Matt....... I would have to agree with Greg on this one!!! Thanx for the info! I keep a little log one all the don't do's, just added yours.:cheers:

Mario, I'm glad you can use some of the knowledge I've gained to build a better car the first time. I really wish I'd taken more notes from this forum.

Todd, I honestly have no idea if I was having problems with the pad knock back. I want to say yes, because I feel like I've experienced the problem several times, but I was running with uncentered rear calipers that had gear oil on them too, and were probably near worthless out at Pleasanton.

Doug, I just checked the good-guys site, and it doesn't look like they're going to have an autocross in August. They do have another show in November with an autocross, but it's a week after sema. I know the Rat Pack could pull off the two events, but I'm not so sure about the mouse packs ability pull off such a feat.

Also, thanks all for the advice. Looks like I'm going to look for a band-aid fix until the car can go in for "surgery." Damnit Greg, for a guy with a bunch of tools that claims not to know very much, you have some good advice.

Hopefully the Best of Show gang can get the car on the road for this weekend, provided I can find the right parts. I haven't driven it in several weeks and I'm leaning towards paying cars and coffee a visit. Are you in Doug? Did you get Rodger's panel gap spray or those sweet rear prototype Baer brakes yet?

Matt

Backspacing
 

Awesome car and build.
Can you tell me what the backspacing on the front 18x9's are?
Thanks.

BCA BR20 bearings
they are a taper bearing with an external seal, i am not the biggest fan of the way they retain the axle with the seal (new design aln all) but i guess we will see how well they work the other advantage of the desigtn is that the bearing now gets gear lube instead of being sealed

Funny how we did not have
 

a problem with the sealed bearings until we started driving the poo out of our cars.

Here is my unsolicitated opinion. Todd and I had a bad knockback problem with the sealed bearings. Part of the fix was ditching the Wilwood retainer and using the thicker Currie. Solved some of my problem. Todd went all out and changed to a tapered bearing. Willwood has since changed their retainer.

We are putting huge tires on the back of these cars now and generating a pretty good side load. I think the axle itself will still flex with the tapered bearing. You are asking the axle to carry the drive and the side load.

Enter the full floater. Most all track cars running a solid axle are running this style of rear. Speedway Engineering can make a full floater with their GN aluminum hubs, 1/2 inch wheel studs, 31 spline axles on 5 on 4.75 bolt pattern. You will be able to use your present wheels as the center section only comes 1 inch off the hub face and is the correct diameter. Only problem is the rotor adaptor is 8 bolts on a 7 inch spacing...12 inch rotors are as big as you can run.

Make a custom rotor adaptor/hat to run the 13 inch rotor for the 12 bolt 8.75 circle and you are golden.

This is going to be my route anyway...thought I would pass the info along

I agree the floater is the cats meow. Looks like BMR has a product and I know others are working on it as well. I've been kicking around installing a floating caliper to get me by.

Curious...What posi units are you running? I assume you guys are running 9" Fords..

Matt...

I was just at Best of Show the other day I had them do some color sanding on my Camaro... They did a great job.

I too was having an axle leak for a while. (6k miles)... I replaced the seal a couple times... it would help a little. A couple weeks ago i blew apart my spider gears..haha. Since putting the rear end back together.. the axle hasn't leaked yet. (maybe 250 miles).. but now i have a mystery "clank" that will happen every now and then in the diff.

I saw your camaro on the rack.. it looked damn good.
Are you wanting to hit the Carlsbad cars and coffee?? I now live here... so we should link up sometime.

josh.

The good news for you Josh -- is that you can leave a dead car on the road and skate your way home... :rofl: :woot:

You know it.... thats what pays for this hobby of mine! :lol:

So I called DSE today, and they couldn't really give me a good solution. They didn't even know of an inner seal for the housing they use. We also left a message with Kyle, but he's busy in Columbus. Hopefully he knows something, because as far as I can tell the housing doesn't even have a provision for a seal other than the tiny o ring that fits on the bearing, which just sounds like it would be prone to failure, and would seem uncharacteristic of DSE which almost over engineers everything. In any case, we're just going to throw it back together with some silicone and hope to keep the leaking to a minimum since I checked just about every seal ever made and couldn't find one built to the required specs. :willy:

Josh, I'd be down to go to the Carlsbad meet, but I think that's the last sat. or sun. of the month...not sure though. I've also been considering making the drive to Cars and Coffee in Irvine this Saturday if it isn't raining. Would you be interested in going?

also, what kind of axles do you have, are they Moser's by chance?

Matt

My guess is the oring isn't the problem. The axle grease is getting through the bearing itself. I just had this very discussion with Tobin at Kore3 yesterday. With no internal oil seal, it's not wonder it leaks. I bet the DSE test cars have TAPERED bearings. haha
https://lateral-g.net/forums/show...apered+bearing

i am running a 9 with a detroit tru trac
 

mine has inner seals. also know you can run a seal right off the pumpkin. they do this on the floaters to keep the diff fluid from washing the outer bearings

So Todd, how are you liking the tapered bearings, and your bearings aren't sealed are they? BTW I'm really hoping Kyle calls us back when the chaos of Columbus subsides. I feel like they know things we don't, seeing as how they beat on their cars almost every other week. Whether or their solution involves magic is the big question.

Now, speaking of full floaters, are they overkill for most of our cars? I don't know too much about them though, so if anyone feels like throwing up a good link for my education, it would be much appreciated.

Anyway, think I'm off to cars and coffee tomorrow, unless I sleep in. Maybe I can find out if the 275 tires we threw on today will rub/scrape at all. Hope the panel gap critics won't be there to look at my Carbon fiber hood in all of its rippled glory.

Matt

Leak free so far. All tapered bearings are lubricated by the rear end grease. I can tell you this, when I had roller bearings AND inner seals I had a inner seal failure. It leaked until I replaced the inner seal.

Little update: Kyle called Dick back today. Basically, what Kyle told Dick was that DSE has chosen to use Moser's Torino Big Bearings because after trying just about everything, they found all of the setups, (short of anything like a full floater), to have flaws. However, Kyle seems to think that Moser's Torino Big Bearing setup is simple to maintain and reliably run, making it the least of the evils. He told Dick that before track days they pull the rear brakes on their test cars and put silicone around the bearings. It may seem like a bit of a band-aid solution, but they seem to think that all things considered, and compared to other options, the Torino bearings are the best, or least bad.

Dick didn't ask Kyle about tapered bearings though, and I'd like to get his opinion at some point. For now, I think I'm going to wait for Todd to beat the piss out of his car a little more and see how his setup holds up.

Matt

Have Dick call me.. I would like for him to check something out..

Did you end up going to cars and coffee? If so... how was it?

I want to know what posi unit is being using in the car.. Detroit Locker.. TrueTrac.. ???

$20 says it's a Detroit Tru-Trac...

The "problem" is when autocrossing these cars huge side loads are put on the rear bearings.. loads they weren't designed to take. So I can see how they would start to seep.

Every solution is going to have it's own unique problem.. well, except a floater but that has a cash element..

I just got off the phone with Larry C from Pro-Touring.com.. He was having serious issues with piston knock back on his rear brakes & took his car over to Wilwood to see if the issue could be fixed.. He has a 12 bolt with Torino ends & using a Detroit Truetrac.. Wilwood did eveything they could do to work out the end play out of the axles.. but was still having piston knock back.. One thing that was discovered was that when the car was put up in the air & the load was taken off the wheels, it would hang the tires as if something was lose.. Put the rear on load & it would tilt the wheels in..

I just looked up on how a Detroit TrueTrac unit works.. worm gears is how this unit works.. They do not machine a bore to locate the gears that go into the splined portion of the axle.. If the axle is not located on the splined portion of the posi unit it is going to create alot of movement that can hurt the outer bearing & seals on the axle end..

Now take a look @ a Detroit Locker with spider gears & clutch pack.. the spider gears that go on the splinded portion of the axle is bore machined & located on the posi unit that keeps the axle centered on the axle tube..

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/.../ct_125986.jpg

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/.../ct_126000.jpg

currie set my 12 bolt up with 9" ends and the U356L bearings. im thinking these are the set 20 tapered roller bearings. is that correct, and if so, any need for me to worry? are there a few different style tapered bearings?

i hate reading informational threads after ive already spent the money..........

Matt...

What carpet did you go with on your car?

Cris, I'm not following you. From the exploded view the ture trac does have a smooth bore for the axles to slide into then the splines.

a friend has a
 

locker in his. Makes all sorts of noise. I would not put one in a street car.

Information will always vary.. Every person or car will always have different issues or opinion on which product to use..

Todd, After I posted the pic on the TrueTrac I noticed the it has a shaft that located on the out board of posit unit, but look @ the inboard towards the center of the unit.. flat surface which can create movement & transfer it to the axle bearing on housing end.. If you have a shaft that measures about 30 inches long & want it to run concentric.. It needs to be supported frim on both ends..

I am just looking & reseaching right now.. not saying that TrueTrac is problem..

Lockers do make alot of noise.. The exploded view I posted is a Limited slip not a locker..

Ok, someone owes Steve $20 because it is a Truetrac. Cris, do you still want Dick to give you a call today?

Now, to answer a couple questions... First, I think someone asked what offset the 18x9s are. I'm not 100 percent sure, so you would have to contact Jon at Driverzinc. but I believe they have a 5.625 backspace, at least I think that is what DSE recommends with their subframe. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Josh, I did drive up to Cars and Coffee Saturday morning. If you like Porsches then you missed out. They coordinated a big meet and had their own section. There was everything from a 356 to a Carrera GT (which sounds insane) and GT3 RS. As a heads up this Thursday is the Encinitas cruise along the 101, and there is some show on Satuday in Carlsbad that I've been told I have to sign up for by the guys at the shop. Oh and the carpet is Mercedes.

Matt

Just got off the phone with Dick.. I will be assembling a rear end like the one you have in your car today to get Dick some info..

Great Info
 

Cris

Just to clarify but the true-trac with the gears is a better system?? The problem with the old locker and the clutches is the slippage and noise. I believe that the true-trac or auburn is a better set up than the locker for road race and if your dragging use the full spool locker?

This is great info and should be put in a new thread.

I just put a Detroit TrueTrac in my Cuda, which was recommended to me over other clutch style posi units for road racing.

"TrueTrac differentials are unique in that they increase traction but do not affect steering or wear out prematurely; these problems are common with limited-slip differentials that use clutch plates and springs.
TrueTrac performs like a conventional differential, until there is a loss of traction. Only then will the power transfer occer - when it is needed."
(Just happened to have the TrueTrac owners manual on my desk.)

Cris, are you saying the splined side gear which the axles slip into in the diff has movement? It seems to me it would take a lot of movement of that gear to create such angles at the tire (since they are so far from each other, and they should be located at the ends by a bearing). Also, in the exploded view of the TrueTrac it looks to me like it does have shoulders to locate the side gear. I also just looked at a similar helical torsion diff at my work and the side gears are also located by a shoulder.

I would think the outer axle bearings and how the axles are retained would be more of a concern. Please let me know what the results are, I like this stuff!

-Dave

Geez, I just purchased a locker for mine (Detroit Locker 35 spline--not a True Trak). After doing some research--on issues like these, I was convinced it was the best way to go. I know they make some noise, but only when backing in and out of the driveway--that doesn't bother me. I didn't want to take a chance on the thing having a knock back issue with the new rear setup going in the car---many have suspected what's being played out here---will keep watching as I will be ready for axles and the bearings in the next couple of weeks. Thanks for the thread Matt.

Doug

Payton, when does it make the noise? Like every corner?

Doug

Thanks for sharing...:willy:

What--you've never hijacked a thread? I just looked up the definition of "Thread Hijacker" and there was a picture of you. This just begs some Greg input. Sorry Matt--will be back on track after this post. :lol:

Doug