I thought I'd take a little time and bring my build thread back from the dead. I've finally started to make additional updates to the car. I think I have a pretty solid plan in place but I also have a really tight deadline. I need to have the car back together and and ready for COTA at the beginning of Aug. Hopefully I make it.


I have 2 main goals with the updates. 1 - optimize the car as best I can with the current frame and most of the hardware. 2 - Make the car safer for high speed tracks. As possible I'm also going to try to make it look better as well.


Here are the changes I've planned.

Suspension

Seam weld/stifffen the factory frame
Revise UCA/LCA mounts for better geometry
New UCA’s
New ball joints
New front sway bar
Add rear sway bar
Change panhard mounts on rear
Revalve current shocks
Add adjustable rear trailing arm mount

Safety
Add a full roll cage
Add fire suppression system
Mount passenger side race seat

Misc

Move stuff around as possible to achieve better weight balance
New/stiffer trans mount and TA mount
Smooth/Clean firewall
Add Dual brake masters with pivot
Optimize pedal layout for heel toe shifting - because I suck at it
Replace factory heater with compact vintage air unit
Clean up the birds nest of wiring I have
If there’s time

Move alternator to lower passenger side (if there’s time)
Flare front fenders for 315 tires. (may drive with some modified junk fenders for a while if needed)
Make custom grill
Move turn signals to headlights and change current lights to brake ducts.
Make front splitter or extend current factory replacement.

So far all I’ve really done is destroy the car. Its now torn down and I’ve been focused on cleaning. Today I’ll be ordering up the tubing for a cage but that’s on hold until I get the frame back in place


Attachment 58864

Attachment 58865

Attachment 58866

Attachment 58867

Attachment 58868

Attachment 58869

Attachment 58870

Attachment 58871

Attachment 58872

Attachment 58873

I love it. Drivable car to stripped subframe in what, 48 hours? :)

I'd love to offer up TOW as a COTA backup plan, but I couldn't let you get an invite in my car! :sieg:

Yea, its a bit depressing to think about but hopefully I get it done and can compete. I do have 5 weeks of vaca available at work but not sure they'd like me to take it all at the same time.

Here are some of my thoughts that may help you speed things up as your time line is very short.

-- Make sure you leave enough room so you can add padding so you can drive the car on the street if you want to. I would hate to have you get hurt driving the car without a helmet and smack your head on the cage.


-- buy the DSE firewall patch panel.

-- don't we all suck at it

Look at what D&Z and Dutch boys did with there 2nd gen as it works so well


JIC you are interested I have a standard camaro header that I had the RS housing cut into if you are interested in it. You can then move the indicators up there or use them for brake ducts


This could kill two birds with one stone. Extend it and then add your brake ducts into the splitter.

Destroy - Nahhhh your just having fun. Heck I took my 70 apart last weekend as it needs more heat and sound deadening.

ps DEI sells a lite weight heat insulation for under the carpet.

Marty - All good advise. Thank you for the comments

Roll cage will certainly have some padding on it. Current Roll bar does already though the cage will have the SFI padding. Luckily Slennings has done an awesome job with his cage and its the same layout I was thinking. Hopefully I can get close to the quality of work he's done

Dutch boys car is certainly a car I am looking at for ideas. I'll have to check out the D&Z car too

I am interested in the header you have. Can you PM a pic and price for it?

So did you see the seats Steve (Sleenning) is putting in his car. I no longer like him as I really want to put those seats in my car. However I think I am going to build another car instead.

pm sent and here is a link http://www.garagescene.net/index.php?/category/489

Hey Steve this is awesome!! Way to dive into the deep end.

Thanks for the comments on my cage, that was my first attempt at doing one :EmoteClueless: and am pretty happy with the way it turned out. If there's anything I can help you out with, specific pics, measurements etc. just let me know. I'd be glad to help with what limited knowledge I have LOL

PS Marty sure seems to be upset about my seats :mock:

Yes I am


Marty-MJ

You'll forget all about seats once your in your Cayman seat. Either the LWB's or not, you'll be more spoiled....

Steve, way kool to see this. I pretty much just wrapped up a 9 month redo with mine, update/project progress pending.....

On the 315's, i don't know what DZ did, but Dutch Boys (Paul) left em out, track ok, but rain and road not so sure. I'm going from a 275 to a 295 or 305 and may do the Speed Tech inner tubz.....And still may go the Speed Tech sub.Right now the car is pretty righteous cept my shock/spring balance issues i'm having, Dr Ron is on it.....

Looking forward to seeing your progress......Cheers for now

Quit typing and pick up a tool dude!



Looks good Steve! But I think it needs to be broken down even further.

I'll most likely be taking you up on that offer. i've never done a cage either so it's going to be a steep learning curve but its a challenge I feel I need to take on.

Those are good looking seats for sure. If i didn't already have some Sparco's I may have jumped on the bandwagon

Funny how they are never done.....

I like how Dutchboys tied the fender to the cage but I may have to do some additions to keep it a little clean. Hard to say right now. Most likely it will have some cut up junk fenders on it at first and no inners because I'll probably run out of time

It does need more teardown. Remaining interior comes out tonight and i start the process of stripping paint on the floors and firewall. SOOOOOO excited I can't wait :confused18:

Those aren't easy to find! I was looking for a set when I got the seats for TOW, and no one had them in stock. 12 weeks was the estimate. I like the ones I ended up with though, but would probably have liked these a little more.

Good luck, Steve. Sounds like a good plan you have worked out.

Hopefully I can stick with the plan and it all works for me.


Made a bit more progress. Subframe is torn down and sandblasted. Started welding up the frame seams. I'm taking it slow to make sure I don't warp the frame. Welds aren't all prefect but are getting better than they used to be. I was pretty happy with this one in particular. Others are close to the same but not quite as good. Let me know if I'm wrong and I should be doing something different with my welds.


Next step is to flip the frame over, finish welding the seams and jig in on the table at ride height so I can move the LCA mounts and remove the UCA mounts. Also will need to decide if I'll be mounting the shocks to the frame or the engine bay bars I'll be installing

I also started to clean off the firewall in prep for smoothing but I won't proceed further with that until I have the frame complete

Attachment 58900

Ooof!! Now that is taking on an ambitious project in a tight time frame. Good luck with all the updates! Sounds like a good plan so far!

Welds look good to me!

Thanks, it does feel nice to not have the giant glory welds I used to get when I started. Amazing what little prep and fine tuning off the machine can really do.





Made a bit more progress last night. The frame is mounted on a table as level as I can make it. Now its time to move the LCA mounts and cut off the UCA mounts.

Attachment 58917

I dont think I've subscribed to this one yet. Looking fwd to seeing your progress. Are you taking direction from the Ronster for your geometry changes?

Sure am. No way I'd be doing all this work with only the knowledge I have. Had to have an expert show me the way. Overall the goal is to get the RC under control and make the car more predictable for me when I'm driving it.

Another second gen
 

So are you going to due the gulstrang mod to the shock??

Bob

Not really. The UCA mount will be all new so I can use slugs to adjust the alignment and set the car up per Ron's guidance for the correct geometry. Ron is have a custom UCA made to put my ball joint in the best possible location based on the current spindles I have.

I'm debating how to mount the shocks overall. I'd like to add adjusters to them mount them further out on the LCA and to the engine bay bars I'll be adding to the cage but I'm not sure there is time for this and not sure if the wheels will interfere. Most likely I'll reuse the current Speedtech mounts I have.

Subscribed, looking forward to seeing this progress. The custom UCA concept optimized to the AFX spindle is something Speedtech should really look into. Seems there current offerings work, but aren't built around the spindle per se.

Another 2nd gen
 

Look forward to seeing this progress
I still have a stock spindle and need to change
things... I like the custom UCA idea

Bob

If I didn't already have the AFX spindle I would have gone with a custom one from Ron which would have made the geometry even better from what I recall with the conversations I had with him. The downfall for me is that I would have had to get new front brakes and a few other pieces which blew my budget.



Here are some more updates

With the frame welded to the table in the same position as the car I needed to get started moving the LCA mounts. Overall I need to move the LCA mounts up 1/8" and make sure both sides are exactly the same.

At first I decided to cut a few bolts in the lathe to make a point which would find the center points and hang strings from there. Quickly I found the issue was that the ante of the bolts could move relative to each other depending the angle of the factory mount which caused a lot of variability. I didn't like this.

Attachment 59004

Attachment 58996

Attachment 58997

Attachment 58998

The plan already involved using steel rods to ensure alignment of the holes after they are moved. I decided to expand upon the use of this. I drilled 2 holes in the rods at the location of the LCA pivot centers so I could hang a string thru it and get the best possible measurement along with the most aligned mounts.

Once everything was where it needed to be hardened washers were then welded on to the frame so nothing would move. It doesn't look too hard in the pics but given it was my first time to do it, I had a lot of time measuring, grinding, remeasuring and regrinding....but finally I got it done.

Last night I also finished up the driver side so step one and hopefully one of the harder (most critical tolerances) is complete.


Attachment 58999

Attachment 59000

Attachment 59001

Attachment 59002

Attachment 59003

Another Second Gen
 

Surprised the 1/8" makes that much difference
but understand that Ron's word is Gold. I was also
told by another builder that you want to brace the rear
lower supports as they move around with the bigger tires,bars etc

Thinking this may be the way to go for me since I have a Pontiac
Engine with not a lot of options. Was already thinking Ron's spindles
and custom Uca. Looks like a lot of work but it will be worth it in the end

Bob

Bob - I'm moving the locations 1/8" but I'm also moving the entire frame up 1/2" into the car by removing all the body mounts. These changes along with new UCAs and remounting them are all combining to give me an overall better front RC under dive.

I agree with you on bracing the rear LCA mounts. I'll be doing this once I have the engine back in so I can check for header clearance.



Another thing I am doing is moving the lower shock mount outward for better responsiveness. This is pretty scary for me since I'm no where near a professional welder/fab guy. Either way I already took the plunge and this is what I came up with over the weekend. Its a really tight fit but everything seems to work.

Attachment 59023

Attachment 59024

Attachment 59025

Attachment 59026

Attachment 59027

Attachment 59028

Attachment 59029

Not sure I mentioned it before but I did find something scary when pulling the car apart. The fuel vent must have been leaking inside the car. I could smell it once in a while when the tank was full but I though it was just a little bit of fumes. apparently it was coming out the vent and dripping in the car because the vent was angled and didn't reach too far out of the floors. Thats what I can gather from what I see. Either way there's no doubt that this will certainly be changed before the car gets back on any street or track

Attachment 59030

Fabrication is looking good Steve !

Another 2nd gen
 

Looks professional to me
Thanks for posting up the pictures

Bob

WS6 cars came from the factory with the rear LCA mount braced to the subframe. It's just a bolt in deal but it worked according to the engineers at Pontiac at the time. I had to pull the one on my car to clear my headers but will be building gussets and welding those in at a later date. In short, glad you're planning to add them to you car, Steve and Bob.

You're doing good work, Steve. Good luck with it.

Here are a few more updates on the car. Progress is much slower than I hoped but I'm happy with the work I'm doing. At this point USCA at COTA is a no go. I did end up buying a completely stock 95 Mustang GT for next to nothing. I was going to run at COTA then later on turn it into a NASA CMC car but decided it too wasn't worth the effort/potential costs to run with USCA.

Custom UCA's arrived last week and I was able to setup the mounts. I built a platform with 3/16 that I will later box in and add gussets once I confirm everything is correct. I'll have the driver side done early next week.

I also need clearance the frame in the back for additional tire clearance and the bottom of the frame for the new sway bar. The bar is completely under the frame to maximize tire clearance. I'll post more pics of this once its complete next week


Attachment 59386

Attachment 59387

Attachment 59388

Attachment 59389

Attachment 59390

Attachment 59391

Attachment 59392

Attachment 59393

Attachment 59394

Attachment 59395

A few more updates. Optima this weekend is now officially out but progress still continues on the car.

Clearanced the frame to maximize turning radius.
Mocked up the sway bar but ran into clearance issues with the steering/tie rods. Hoping bent tie rods will correct the issue. may also move the bar forward if possible to straighten the links. Still in progress.
Mocked up the upper shock mounts. Eventually there will be bay bars tied into the cage to reinforce the hoops. I may also remake the hoop to make is slightly narrower and to ad 5 degrees tilt to the shock mount.

Attachment 59434

Attachment 59435

Attachment 59436

Attachment 59437

Attachment 59438

Attachment 59439

Attachment 59440

Looking great! You're making some great progress!

Another 2nd gen
 

Thank you so much for all the detail
Looks like a lot of work but I know it
will be worth it...keep after it

Bob

Its been a while since I updated this so I figure its about time. Lots has happened in the last few months. First, I missed the Optima COTA deadline. I decided it wasn't worth rushing the rebuild to hit the event. One of the big reasons was due to my girlfriend who pointed out I was getting completely OCD on the project, becoming a bit of an ass due to the stress of the deadline and had forgotten about many other important things, such was my dog, maintaining my house, my truck, focusing on work...oh, and her too. It was a good reality check for my that this is supposed to be fun and I am doing this to learn how to do things right. I took a bit of a break from the car, did some traveling and now have started to focus on it again. New deadline is March of next year (hopefully).


I still haven't finished up the front suspension. I've found just how difficult it really is to package everything in the front of a car including the tie rods, sway bar and maximizing the wheel travel and starring angle. I also decided to cut the frame up even more. If I'm going to build it I might as well make it easy to work on later. This meant completely removing the spring buckets.


Attachment 60250

Attachment 60251

From here I needed to figure out how to fit the sway bar. Ron provided me some bent arms to use, and I did my best to try to fit them. Unfortunately it wasn't possible with my goal for the most steering angle possible. I decided to make a test arm with a different 30 degree bend in it to see how things fit and it seems to be the best choice.

Attachment 60252

Attachment 60253

Attachment 60254

Next piece before I finished up mounting the sway bar was to get the steering geometry correct. Ron talked me thru this process and I ordered up all new linkages. This included a bumpsteer adj centerline, bumpsteer adjusters for the outer tie rods and bent tie rod links for added clearance. Process overall was pretty simple. First I leveled the pitman arm on the steering box, it was 2.5 degrees off. This included shimming between the steering box and the frame until is was level. Next, because my pitman and new idlers arm are the same length I measured the distance from the axle centerline to the centerline mount for both with both the pitman and idle perpendicular to the axle centerline. I also needed to make sure the centerlink was level. This showed me I needed to move my idler arm mount ~1/2" from the original location. I thought about some link of fancy bracket but ultimately decided simple is better and I just drilled new holes in the frame. After they were both level and square I had to clearance the passenger side of the frame because the idlers was little much higher. Once clearanced I was able to check the angle of the centerlink thru the steering travel. I put a gauge on the centerlink and turned the box lock to lock. Happy to report it was spot an and didn't change angle at all.

Attachment 60255

Attachment 60256

Attachment 60257

Next issue I ran into was that my new coil over mounts were hitting the wheel while turning and in suspension compression. Of course this wasn't going to work. I had to start over on the coilover mount. I could have bought some new arms but I already work geometry with Ron so I didn't want to chance screwing up the geometry. I had also hacked these up already so figured they were pretty worthless in terms of resale.

I went ahead and cut the mounts and entire spring bucket out. I added a cross tube and some additional 3/16 plate to make an area to mount the coil over bracket at 4.5" from the ball joint centerline. My welds certainly aren't the straightest but I'm happy with the overall results so far.

Attachment 60258

Attachment 60259

Attachment 60260

Attachment 60261

Attachment 60262

After all this time that's really all I have to update. I'm hoping this week to finish up bother LCA's with coilover mounts and decide on final mounting of the sway bar. You can see in one of the pick I have the new sway bar arms and have drilled them for the dual mounting locations. After this I have to rebuild the hoops for the coil over upper mounts because of the change in height for the lower mount revision. Maybe that will get done next week but probably not since I'll be headed to SEMA

This is so cool to watch guys doing all this great work in their own garage.I'm no welder but I'm looking at getting something for the garage...I'll learn as I go I hope. Great work on the build!!

I read somewhere that Bruce McLaren himself said designing a race car was primarily a packaging exercise.

Looks like you're on the right path. Of all aspects of (pro tour) car construction, I find the front suspension the most interesting and in fact the dis-satisfaction of trying to band aid the suspension on my '67 Mustang was what got me started building cars in the first place.

Looks like you're doing the right thing and with Ron involved your in the best of hands. And every time you decide not to compromise, you've made the right choice, especially if its mostly an issue of labor (everyone has $ limits).

As much as I like to work on "open design" tube front ends, I find there to be something really satisfying about working with the stock subframe and the original steering gear, for example I found 73CP's thread really interesting for that reason. As long as its someone else's car !

It looks great, nice work.

Impressive Steve. You are really goin for it (within reason) and stickin with it. I am glad you didn't bail on the Camaro.

Did I hear you picked up some other vehicle in the meantime? :peepwall:

Nothing wrong with stepping back every now and then to tend to other priorities...it's all about balance.

Huge kudos for stepping into the deep end with your fab work, I agree...if you are in it this far just keep doing things right instead of compromising. It will pay off in the end.