Andrew, do you think the C7 fan would work well with the LS3 GMPP fan wire (without PWM)? I was the one that asked you questions about the C7 fan dimensions on IG yesterday. I currently have the Entropy radiator (and it’s controller) am looking at other radiator/fan options.

Chris,

The fan wire on the GMPP harness is just a ground trigger for a relay, and will definitely not work with the C7 fan. Spal does offer tidy little controllers for their brushless fans, which I'm certain will work with the C7 fan. However, they are not adjustable, and you have to make sure to pick the right one for your thermostat, otherwise the fan will run all the time. It's definitely not as elegant as what I did on Sean's truck.

Andrew

I may reach out when I get to this point in my build just to make sure I'm thinking of things correctly. First I'll read back through this thread! :)

I have the C&R w/ Spal setup that I plan to run in PWM with the Ford controller.... Should be fairly straight forward from a wiring perspective - - just want to validate my thinking on how to handle the signal from the AC...

Brandon,

Are you using Holley EFI?

Andrew

The C7 fan is a good fan for 16" and 600w. The CTS-V fan is a bigger option at 19" and 850w if you have the room for it. Tuning wise it will be the same as you can plug and play a V fan in a C7 with a custom shroud like Dewitts does. Thats the fan Stielow has used before as well. Either fan is around $300.

The CTSV fan is impressive, but most classic radiator shapes don't have enough height to accommodate it without a custom radiator.

a little cut and paste with some some juicy fruit and bingo, fits like a glove.

In case you haven't noticed, your fabrication skills are at least 2 standard deviations from the mean :D

Andrew

Instagram filters lol

This is the information that I got from Spal on my brushless fan assy that I got from Wizzard Cooling , I think it answers all of the questions about wiring the internal PWM controller.

That is awesome info. Thanks.

Don

More PWM Questions, looking for guidance
 

Ok guys I’m trying to circle in on how I want to drive my fans and need a little help. There’s probably 15 different ways to do it but here’s where I’m at:
• Must be PWM other than that I’m open
Currently I have:
• Holley HP ECU
• 2 C6 PWM modules
• 2 13” Spal Brushed Fans (VA13-AP70/LL-63A
Full disclosure I tracked it and drove it for 18mths with I C6 PWM driving both fans but mid way through something “gave up” and the fans wouldn’t come on. So at the track I wired in two relay’s to drive my fans (on off). Never figured out why they stopped, just assumed I couldn’t drive both fans with 1 PWM modules. After that the car went into paint and everything came off.

Ok now its 2020 (which sucks for its own reasons) I’m putting everything back together and I’m doing a little research. First thought…did I screw up and try to drive PWM with a brushed fan? The Fans worked perfectly after I wired them to relays but did I fry the PWM?
So here’s my thought process
In Option #1 in my picture was my initial thought was just add another PWM but the more I read up about it, not sure you can do that with brushed fans.
Option #2: swap out fans with brushless fans and drive them with the Holley ECU and the Spal fans use a temp sensor to adj speed.
Option #3: same as option #2 but use the PWM table in the ECU to drive speed.

Any guidance or help would be appreciated

https://i.imgur.com/Wi5cU83.jpg

Tony,

It is hard to say exactly what failed. If you are willing to spend some money, then option #3 is the way to go.

I (and many others) have been using the C6 fan controller with brushed fans for years. My cheap Dorman C6 fan has been amazing with the C6 controller and Dominator ECU.

Reach out to me. I can probably save you some money and also be able to help with the tuning and wiring.

Andrew
Sending PM

My plan is to use my non GMPP E67 with my current non brushless Griffin radiator fans (Spal) driven by the C6 controller. I have vintage air. Is the pressure switch a must? I'd imagine so.

Everything is currently running discrete, but I hate the noise. I've been putting this off long enough, but the season is going to be winding down soon.

I have non-brushless fans, the controller and harness, otherwise I would've gone with the non brushless fans as this would be the easiest adaptation using the wiring that's already in place...unless I'm understanding this incorrectly.

Besides the pressure switch (if necessary), is there anything else I'm missing?

I mostly have experience with the Holley EFI, but from what I can see, I think you are good to go.

Andrew

Thanks Andrew...do you know if I definitely need a pressure sensor for the AC? I'm thinking I do, but not thoroughly sure. If so, not a big deal as here seem to be quite a few different ways to tap in to one of the lines or the drier.

Can someone post their table for the PWM vs Temp settings? If it matters, I'm working with an E67.

Having a pressure sensor is recommended, because then the ECU will demand a certain fan speed when the AC pressure reaches a certain point, regardless of engine temperature.

Andrew

Course Correction
 

Well, a big shout out to Andrew guiding me and helping out a bunch but because I already had the fans and C6 PWM modules, here's what i got. I hope this helps others. I'm also assuming that tying two fans each probably killed my first module they had the potential to peak at 45amps each at start up (without PWM) so i'll let everyone know how this latest set up works for me. There's many new ways to do this but because i already had them this would be the quickest and cheapest....

https://i.imgur.com/rrqQXvN.jpg

Tony,

I am looking forward to working with you more!

Andrew

As a follow up to this statement, on my GMPP E67 kit, schematic says C3-49 being a green wire to fuse bus position 7D. Is someone familiar enough to detail what the process here is, with regards to splitting fan1 and fan2, to make appropriate input connection at PWM controller @ position 6?

Thank you in advance!

Andrew

GMPP harnesses only.

I have tried separating them and have been unsuccessful at getting two separate fan controls. You can operate two separate relays, with two separate fans but they will turn on and off at the same time.

......and once they come on, will not shut off until a set speed is reached, regardless of temperature.

This seems like more evidence to the fact that at some point GM changed the ECU in their kits.

The GMPP harness and ECU in my GTO were purchased in 2008. I don't have a speed input to the ECU. My fans turn on around 210 and turn off around 205.

Andrew

A buddy of mine assures me he has the PWM fan working on the GMPP controller kit. He says the PWM signal terminal is connector J3, pin 49. Check that you are using that for the signal & not the exiting fan wire that triggers the relay for on/off fan.

Also I found this site that sells the fittings for the AC pressure switch.

https://www.bp-automotive.com/produc...-conditioning/

I am second guessing myself and don't know if this has been answered anywhere throughout this discussion. Is the Ford Fusion controller:

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...=7097004&jsn=3

looking for 100 or 128 Hz? I'm hoping it will play nice with my E67 and dual Spal 14" fans (Griffin assembly).

I have a Speartech harness that has no provision for the AC pressure switch signal to go back to the E67 currently.

I also have Vintage Air and a trinary switch plumbed in. I haven't gotten around to actually filling the system to use it. It's been running a dual relay configuration in discrete mode since it's been together, but the quest to quiet the noise down and better control the temp's has me going the PWM route.

I, too, have a trunk mounted battery and am planning on using the engine bay mounted distribution block currently used by my relay/discrete fan set up. Someone else asked about any potential issues running this was early on in this thread, but no one replied.

I can't answer everything, but I will what I can.

You want 128Hz. Depending on the amp draw of those fans, one of those controllers may not be enough. That controller is rated for a 400watt fan (Volts X Amps = watts). If you it wouldn't be hard to exceed that power rating with two 14" SPALs.

Andrew

So the Fusion controller is also looking for 128 hz?

My fans are : VA08-AP10/C-23A 12V

I thought that the -23A would be the amps, but when I google this part number, I get 6.3A draw

https://the-fan-man.com/product/14-s...tric-fan-s385/

https://www.spalautomotive.it/axial-...10_c-23a/31689

Which is correct to multiply by for the wattage?



I was also looking at the configuration on my SS sedan. It has a controller with two outputs going to each of two different looking fans. The opposite side also looks similar to the Yazaki connector although with much heavier gauge wire.


I'll have to get a better look at it when I have more time.

https://i.postimg.cc/13Ttnt68/3-D420...150-D7-A07.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/mghkgMcx/DC0-B7...C4-DB96-D6.jpg

Yes.

My guess is that the fan draws 6-7 amps while running and 23 at startup. Since you have soft start with PWM, you would use the 6-7 amp value. Based on this information, I wouldn't exactly call these "powerful" fans.

I bet those SS fans work well!

Andrew

Thanks for the info. Yes...at 956 CFM, I can see why one never turns off while idling at 90+. Loud and annoying. It didn't get hot enough for the 2nd to turn on. It didn't overheat, but I never got stuck in one spot for a very long time.

I haven't had much luck with Griffin. This is the second. The first leaked. Summit replaced it. The second leaked as well in the same place as the first just out of warranty. I had a local shop repair it late last year. So far it's ok, but it may be just a matter of time before it does once again. I'm not duprised that the fans are such low flowing.

My dilemma is either to go ahead and work with what I have as the CFM of both together should be ok, or upgrade the fans alone hoping the radiator holds out. I've spent quite of time ensuring it's mounted with vibration and isolation in mind.

The SS radiator mounts sort of oddly if I was to try and locate the whole thing to try. Plus, who knows how that controller would get along with my E67. The SS is an E38 I believe.

Good info here:

https://www.tbssowners.com/threads/c...ontrol.241568/

Andrew

So the plan for now is working with what I have. I'll use the Fusion controller and harness to run both of my smaller Spal fans together. They would flow just under 1900 CFM at max over most of the core. I'll see what happens.

My plan is to take power for the controller from a stud in my engine bay that is wired directly to my trunk mounted battery. This is would be a short 4.5' run to the controller. While I'd like to use a single Jcase fuse and 10 awg wire, I can't find one I like. I do have a 60A Maxi fuse and holder that I will use for now. Coming out of the controller, I was contemplating using a distribution block that will wire the two fans. I was thinking of further fusing these two at that block with smaller fuses(30A each), but this may be redundant. I do feel that these would blow much quicker should the need arise over the 60A upstream.

Any thoughts?

I'd keep it simple and just use a single 50-60 amp fuse.

Definitely like the KISS method. I’m going to try the 50 and see what happens. On a whim, I have an SS sedan fan assembly coming to check out as well.

The SS fan arrived today. The module does accept the Yazaki connector. Here are some pics in case anyone is interested in sizing:

https://i.postimg.cc/wxF5nrLH/DD2185...2872-ABF93.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/dt1RF9jC/01935-...BF6-A00266.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sXr9RdTf/01-D04...30454-D8-F.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/8cyhWFNs/1352-E...-D9981-D26.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/j2qHL6VG/0-B199...913-A65-CD.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/63fVWjPr/0-F619...5-AFE68022.jpg

My plan is to plumb the C6 pressure sensor into one of the two lines going in and out of the condenser. On my Vintage Air condenser, there is a larger (-08 EZ Clip) line on the top of the condenser that comes from the compressor. At the bottom is an -06 line that goes into the drier. From the drier, another -06 line goes into the under dash unit. My understanding is that the C6 pressure sensor should go to the -06 line coming out of the drier as it goes into the main under dash unit.


Is this the correct location for it?


The trinary switch from the initial relay non PWM fan system is at the top of the drier. Is there any need to switch back to the original binary switch or just leave the 3rd wire disconnected?

I don't know about the other stuff, but you can keep the trinary switch, and just ignore the fan switch part of it.

Andrew

I don't see any reason the pressure sensor can't go in either the 6 or the 8 hose. I have done charge ports in the 6 before and have not noticed any drastic differences in pressure readings. There are EZ clip fitting that will accept the pressure sensor......I never found one for an 8. There are also driers that will do the same.

I try to set the fan/ac pressure table with the engine cold. The goal is find a minimum speed that will keep high side pressure below 250 psi. I do this with my analog pressure gauges attached to ensure that the scaling for my sensor is reasonably accurate.

Thank you both. The -06 it is then. I also run an 07 Trailblazer E67 ECM. The lowest temp available to me is 192. There is an updated OS (2 bar) that will lower it, so I'll try and do that without-hopefully-affecting how the car runs now. My plan is to only take advantage of the lower fan table, but continue to run a 1 bar map.

You don't really need any fan below 192.