In fact a new Kia Sportage can go over 100mph so why buy anything more..

It's sad when these threads become like this...

I keep seeing this "You don't need..." argument and it makes me laugh. None of us NEED any of this stuff, budget or high buck--we don't need speed parts, we want them.

Personally, the only thing I NEED in my life is a low cholesterol diet.

Yeah....tough decision; 15 grand for a new sportage....or for a fully built DSE sub (+taxes and shipping) + brakes, bushings, brake lines, prep and paint, etc...(ok i'll throw in a Ron davis rad for the price and to kee you cool...)

I'd like to see someone hit 100mph sitting on their subframe alone....(Oh, you need to add the price of those HRE's to the project to get rollin...) :rolleyes:

Its not sad Steeve...Its difference of opinions. At least we are getting some good info out of the debate.

Mk Elky said it nicely, "to suggest a car is slow if its not wearing the parts is incorrect" We had a comment about Stielow's car not wearing them at some point here....Its certainly not because of a lack of cash, opportunities or KNOWLEDGE...And HE could tell the difference between parts.

Their must be some reasons he keeps using the stk frame, IT DOES THE JOB!
(I'll try to post a pic of an original sub that was modded and finessed + completely finished (show car like) absolutely amazing that tends to look like the repop DSE unit in the end)

Lead.

You missed my point. You DO need to modify/replace the front suspension on a first generation Camaro to get it to handle well. However, there is often a suggestion in this thread and others discussing the latest new part that, unless you have the part on your car, you can't be (1) fast, or (2) a real pro-touring car. See for example:

Somehow I don't think my G'modded, delrin bushed, Hotchkis sprung and swayed, fast steering box equipped stock subframed front end handles "like either a shopping cart or a tour bus." To suggest that it does is simply silly and/or ignorant. Similarly, a car using the ATS spindle or the SC&C tall ball joints/control arms, in each case on an otherwise stock subframe, can be made to handle extremely well.

If someone wants to say "I'm getting X subframe because it: (1) looks killer, (2) may be a slight improvement over what I could do with a stock sub, (3) shows I have money to burn, (4) is all the rage, (5) is a well made piece that I want on my car, even though not a big improvement in functionality, (6) allows me bigger front tires than I could otherwise mount," I'm cool with all of it. But if someone says "I'm getting X subframe because it is the only/best way I can make my car handle," then I'm sorry, they're simply ill-informed.

Don't forget to add packaging to that list. The rear steer setup on a 1st Gen is a nightmare. That's just one more reason why I wanted an aftermarket setup.

The only reason it's sad is because people don't like an argument with two sides being given, each of which have valid points. It then degenerates into a slanging match. One thing I've noticed & I'm sure many others have as well, is that if you don't agree with the general concensus of opinion on the forum....."your wrong" & your views & opinions are seen to be that of an idiot. To my mind the idioits are those that will say they're gonna get "this part or that part" just because it has the right "name" attached without considering WHY they're spending the money. Are you spending the money because it's what YOU want or because your peers will think better of you? It's like the thread about the dummy turbo aircleaners, the guy obviously thought it was cool or he wouldn't have asked for opinions. If everyone said it was cool I bet he'd have gone for it, but because the response was luke warm at best he's decided not to go for it. Pro Touring now seems all about peer pressure & pose value...... :lol:

Again, a nightmare in what way? The rear steer can certainly be made to handle well. You can put just about any type of engine in with rear steer. Granted, you don't have the "bling" of a rack, but functionally a rack and front steer are hardly required to make the car go around curves well, to get precise steering with good road feel or to do any of the currently popular engine swaps.

I don't care how people spend their money or why; but when they tell me "x" part is the only way to achieve decent performance, then I get to question that conclusion.

Are you saying than that the Trans Am Camaros of Penske/Donohue were unable to corner fast because of rear steering or that they didn't handle with stock frames & A arms?? Admitedly, they're dinosaurs by comparison to modern suspension set ups, but put Donohues car against a typical PT car & you might just get a surprise. :lol:

That's not my point at all... I'm saying that I need the room to fit downpipes and wastegate plumbing. Packaging. Just another variable.

The only problem is that nobody said that a car is slow if it doesn't have these parts.. well nobody except Elky.

What good info are we getting? Advice on how people should spend thier money?

And the Stielow thing is a weak argument. How could he run the DSE sub if it only just came on the market?

I've never seen so many people :willy: over what other people are putting on thier cars..

Maybe you missed where he used the word "stock".. which your suspension is not. Or are you saying that a totally stock suspension handles great?