I see lots of them available in phenolic as well, but this one is listed as wood. Wasn't my first choice, but finding a 3/4" tall spacer is hard... Here is how it's described:

Carb Spacer , wood
Square-bore, 3/4" thick
Open
Single Bolt Pattern

I'll likely pull it back apart and open up the corner radii sometime soon, so I'll see if it has soaked up any fluid. I would hope not with the injectors down in the ports, but I do get some reversion into the intake...

My carb spacer is boring plastic. :action-smiley-027: Pretty rare discussion around here in the land of LS EFI engines I guess. :)

Engine bay looks great man. That shaker really does look killer. Glad you found the work around.

And those new dyno numbers are impressive. You've really brought this car a long way and continue to improve it. Helps immensely to team up with the right shop/builder eh?

:cheers:

Nice additions Bryan!!! See ya in January when we come down for Adrienne's graduation.

Watched the Texas episode of USCA again last night, was nice seeing TOW get some TV time along with others on here as well.

Nice job on the upgrades, love the new dyno numbers.

Me too, great seeing you out there run it. IIRC, i saw four Lat-g cars out there, yours, Jay and Amy's 2nd gen bird, Steves?, the 77 or 78, cant remember his name (sorry) but its the one who ran 1/4 mile and now doing this type of competition.....

Sorry for the jack Bryan. Also, please make sure what ever that wood spacer is coated with DOES NOT break down (the coating, over time, remember wood is an organic material) umm, wood saturated with fuels would be ummm, lets just not say it!!!!!

Mike

Thanx guys. Perhaps I'll go on the hunt again for a different spacer, but when I looked for a 3/4" option, this is what I found. I could mill down a 1" spacer I imagine, but I didn't really want to go that path.

With a few hundred miles and dyno sessions on it, I'll be able to tell if it's soaking up fluids by pulling the TB off. I need to adjust on the idle set screw anyway, so once I have the shaker off, pulled the TB is easy.

I'm really happy with how the valve covers cleaned up under the hood too! It's a lot of work at times to get those final details, and this was one that took me time to get to. I'm glad I did!

As for having the right shop, this car would be nothing compared to what it is if it weren't for Eric. He's done some amazing work for me!

Weld, let me know when you will be in town. I'm traveling the first 2 weekends of January, but I should be in town the rest of the month... Too bad you won't be here in February or you could join me for this:

MVP Track Time

I just signed up for the 3-day weekend. I hope TOW and I both survive it, that will be my first time on COTA. I can't wait!

I didn't want to call Glassman out on his Fuel saturation issue -- but now I have to..... Your system is a dry system with injectors that shoot fuel directly at the intact valve -- which is FAR below the spacer and throttle body which remain high and dry.

A wet injection system would act like a carb - with the injectors in the throttle body mixing with air up top - which might wet down the spacer - but even then - doubtful. Fuel evaporates - and there's also a ton of air flowing...


Anyway - good fix.

Greg,

In theory I completely agree with you. But I think there may be some factors at play here that muddy that theory a bit.

When I pulled the throttle body to change the plenum, the edges of the gaskets which are exposed to the plenum were damp. The plenum itself was also damp. I can't completely explain it, but one theory is that the fuel injectors are spraying on the back of the closed valve during at least a portion of the spray (depending on the particular duty cycle). That fuel hits the valve and generally atomizes. But I think that also may allow some of the vapor back into the plenum when other cylinder intake valves are open.

I've been reading threads as I can find them about one of the Holley HP EFI options which allows you to adjust the timing point when the injectors is turned off. There are theories about when to do this for either best emissions or best performance. We actually played with it a little on the dyno to see it is made any HP differences, and in reality, it didn't seem to. So I want to try and time it to finish right before the valve is opening to allow the vapor to be pulled into the cylinder right after being sprayed. My thinking being that it would reduce the ability for it to get back into the intake.

Anyway, that's a long winded reply to say that in theory, I agree with you. But I did see some 'wet' in my plenum, so I will pull it back down and keep an eye on it to make sure I don't have any problems........

On a different topic, what's up with all of the toys being up for sale? Just noticed that in the sig...

I hate cars and am getting completely out of them.




LOL



You'd have to read the last few posts in my '40 Ford projects thread.



This "thread" might help shed some light on fuel injector and valve timing:




http://www.motec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=769

There were several of us on the Texas Show in addition to Amy and Bryan! GarbberGT- with the Blue Maverick, SilverC10 - with the Burgandy 79 Camaro, myself in the Gold 78 TA, I also see Terry Fair on here every once in a while.

I've been really lax about posting updates here, I'm way behind on the car. But I thought I would share this picture from my weekend at COTA in early March. That weekend caused some carnage for TOW, but it sure was a fun track to drive! Doing lots of this:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...pso9l9hgni.jpg

Eventually led to this after 2 days:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psyayknqga.jpg

Kinda scary, but thankfully it all turned out ok. I've replaced the drilled rotors with these for the future:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps22h2hycm.jpg

Before COTA, and in prep for the upcoming GG event in Fort Worth, I also installed this to help cure my power steering woes (thanx Mr. Sutton!):

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psfqutz2ds.jpg

I also did some of this:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psa87qwf5c.jpg

and this:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psqnyj54yy.jpg

and this:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psnybxgqyx.jpg

after installing these:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psx4dckbjl.jpg

In case it's not obvious, that's 4x 315x30x18 Rival S's. Unfortunately, I did not roll the very edge of the inner fender lip on the passenger side (I had no actual clearance issues, so I thought), and when I hit a bad bump in the street while turning, I did this:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...pszdnbwk45.jpg

One 3 mile old BFG Rival S 315 down the drain... I had already purchased a pair of 275's, so I put those back on instead, and that's what I'm running now.

The bad news in all of this is that not only did I break a brake rotor at COTA, it seems I also hurt the engine. I spent a ton of time, brain power, and money trying to diagnose what has gone wrong, but at this point, it must be something internal. I'm at a point where my hot oil pressure is much lower than it used to be (before COTA), and the engine simply won't run right (my Holley O2 readings are all over the place, not quite as stable at idle, and some stumbling). So next weekend, the engine is coming back out for a teardown. While deciding what to do, I stumbled on this:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psbs7otkbc.jpg

So TOW is getting a small upgrade. It's a sleeved LS block, which will have a 4.155" bore giving me a CID of 434". I'm moving most of my internals over (need pistons), heads, intake, etc. The biggest struggle I'm having is what to do about my oiling system. I added the Accusump last year, and while everything seemed ok, of all damned things, the pressure switch that actually enables the unit has died. Discovered that during the COTA weekend. Doesn't do me a lot of good if the unit can't actuate! :bigun2:

I've done a ton of research about adding a dry sump to the car. I've managed to solve almost all of the hard hurdles, but at this point, it just doesn't seem feasible. So, instead, I'm going to bump the oil pump, get rid of the pressure switch and use the Holley to actuate the Accusump, and look at a few other things per the engine builder's suggestions. I discovered this weekend that my pushrods were not restricted, meaning I was pumping more oil to the valve covers than I needed (so new pushrods will be ordered). I'm also changing oil per a conversation with Ron Sutton from RedLine to Lucas products.

When it rains it pours! I'm glad you found the rotor and the problem with the tire before you were back on the track.

Is the reservoir adapted to the pump you already had or was it complete with pump?

71 Ta
 

Bryan,
Sorry to hear about the Motor... I have had many problems
with Pontiac motors in the past and hope mine is resolved now
was thinking the Ls motors were bullet proof but I guess not

Car does look great on the track
Wondering why brakes actually cracked.. I have had checking
on the Pantera when they have had a lot of time on them.. maybe crossdrilling....14" rotors??? I am still deciding on my new brakes maybe
the Aero Wilwoods... time will tell

Finally looking at your car's weight 3942... I was at 3710 and
taking a bunch off the front and hoping to be in the 3350 range
Hopefully I can weigh mine this weekend
I have a 5 point roll bar, no ac or heat.. glass front end and hood now

Bob

I replaced the pump and reservoir, purchased as a unit through Sutton. Higher pressure unit, which would help with the bigger tires I was trying to run. I REALLY want to replace the rack, but Ron tells me that no one makes a really strong replacement rack for the Thunderbird / Mustang II fitment. I will probably get an extra one to keep on hand once I do get those big tires mounted...

The LS motors don't like long sweeping turns (what motor does I guess). It's easy to suck the pan dry. I confirmed today that I don't have restricted diameter pushrods, which I thought I did, so that didn't help either. I'm told you can have up to 2 quarts of oil in the valve covers (hard to believe it's that much, but I've been told that from 2 sources). So I need to do all I can to limit that.

Heat, I'm sure. COTA is a fast track, and TOW is heavy. 3900# plus slowing from 120-130 down to 45 at 2 points on the track is a lot of heat. And I'm not exactly nice to brakes. There is also limited cooling to them currently (I'm thinking about ways to improve that). But the drilled rotors were probably a bad idea for a big track. I had them all apart the week before COTA, and I didn't see a single stress crack at the holes. Now, every hole has one! Front and rear...

You are definitely getting some weight off the front. I'm a big guy (260-ish), so that doesn't help. I only have the fiberglass hood, I'd like to replace the nose as well like you did. That's 60-70 pounds right there, plus those heavy mounts. I didn't build this car with weight in mind though, it was built as a driver / Pro-Tourer. I need to build another one that's more racecar. :drive:

Me too! I had gone to a parking lot and done some skid pad type testing, and everything was fine. But hitting something like a pothole did it in.

The Rivals are wider at the tread edge than the Falkens were. I had used the rear 315 Falkens for testing before making the jump, and all seemed fine. If I had just rolled the inner edge a bit, I would have been ok. It was a sick feeling when it happened... :(

71 Firebird
 

Bryan,
I wasn't thinking when I saw your car weight
Now I know you have your weight included for corner weighing
I was not counting my weight and I am no little guy either
at 240lbs so our car weights are closer

Bob

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I thought that was a big difference, especially since I have the aluminum LS and aftermarket subframe up front. ;)

Nice update Bryan!!

Just got finished with my heads and cam from TSP on mine, cant' wait to see what breaks next lol.

We're only as strong as our weakest link....

I'm (or was before the DSE rear) at 3501 on mine, any reason the 'bird's are more?

Mike - Is your car's weight with you in it? I'm pretty sure Bryan's is with his weight mocked pretty close. My car's at 3425 without me and I'm near 170 which puts it at 3595. I don't have near the creature comforts Bryan does - AC, Dynamat, full stereo, back seat..etc

Not with me in it. but it has a/c, dynamat (two boxes, 45lbs ish) and rear seats (most likely getting deleted with the new interior in a year or two)....

179lbs, me, plus clothing....helmet and shoulder pads...and cleats...

so, tank, full, or 1/2?

PRETTY DANG HARD TO RUN A CAR WITHOUT A DRIVER..... SO what's the point of saying my car weighs "X" if you don't include the driver and fuel and, and.....


'NUFF SAID

Bryan ---


Without coming off like a jerk - because that's not my intention AT ALL..... I'd be looking for a different engine builder/tuner..... et al. I know a ton of people that are running track events over and over and over - with their LS motors and aren't having issues at all.

I'm pretty sure you have an Accusump -- and that SHOULD take care of the occasional pick up / cornering issue... I would assume you have a baffled "race" pan...

After having motor issues myself 3 or 4 times in a row.... It was the best thing I ever did just going to a new builder and problems solved. The very same motor has been flawless since. Go figure.

Yes, the car's weight included my weight (weight plates).

When I first put TOW on the scales, it was 3810 or so with me in it. Since then I've added the Accusump, rear sway bar, remote oil filter, the change from the LS2 to the LS7 block, and I've put on a few pounds. Not that many though. ;)

A firebird has a very heavy front bumper (75 pounds or so). The Camaro RS urethane bumper is about 30 or so? Also the brackets for the Firebird are heavy.

I have no actual data to prove it, but I think the JRS subframe is pretty heavy too. When I was moving it around, it certainly wasn't light.

My Mustang has lost almost 15 #'s since I drove it last. LOL


Didn't cost me a thing. Balsamic on my salad instead of Bleu Cheese... Apple and Raw Almonds for snacks... Breakfast is 3 tablespoons of Granola - a package of non fat yogurt - and a 1/3 cup of blueberries instead of bacon and eggs and potatoes and sourdough toast with butter and jam...

Sorry to hear of the woes, Bryan. I'm glad you're out having fun with the car though. That action shot at COTA is nice! Good luck getting it sorted and back together.

Greg,

No offense taken. I completely agree with you...

I had Texas Speed rebuild the motor last year when I dropped the valve. I don't blame the dropped valve on the original engine builder, I think it was moreso due to having sat for 5 years. But I don't want to go back to Texas Speed for another rebuild.

So I went on a hunt for another builder. I didn't find anyone in Austin that has much of a reputation for LS engines, but there are several shops in Houston that have good reps. After speaking with a few of them, I've decided to have H-Squared Racing do the rebuild. We've had multiple discussions about what I'm doing with the car, what I want in the engine, and the level of details that should be discussed during a build. Today we talked about piston options and deck height options and compression ratio options, as an example.

To make things even better, he has offered to help me pull and reinstall the engine, as Eric's shop is full so he doesn't have space to do it right now. I didn't ask, he offered. So I'm towing TOW down to Houston on Friday to start the process.

Regarding the Accusump, I'm definitely not happy that it didn't help (assuming that it didn't). I figured out during my second day at COTA that my Accusump wasn't working. It didn't prime when I flipped the switch on at some point during the day. I used my multimeter to determine that the pressure switch in the block wasn't working. WTF, how did that die? Anyway, I bypassed it and had the Holley controlling the Accusump valve. But it's likely that any damage was done before I figured that out.

Once I get the engine out, I'll pull the sensor and contact Canton about it. I may leave the sensor out and just use the Holley for the control.

Yeah, well, I'm working on that too... I have about 50 to go. :grouphug:

Unfortunately I'm sidelined with a knee problem at the moment. I'm having it scoped later this month to remove a piece of floating bone. Fun stuff...

It runs 10.90's Greg.... therefore it runs 10's! :sieg:

You are getting less fun by the day.

All I have to say is with as much money as you have in your car and motor(s) I just don't understand why you wouldn't make the necessary changes to go dry sump. You are continuously going faster and adding grip and that means more G's...

Did you already buy this sleeved block? Why not LS7 block and go aftermarket dry sump? I get it... already have the heads... bla bla bla. Just sayin....

But hey, at least you're out there busting up parts and stuff. :)

Glad you're working on a different builder. I'd have recommended Don Hardy race engines. But hopefully this all works out for you.

Just for comparison sake... My '78 TA weighs in at 3828 - Full tank of gas, no driver, full interior, amp and sub. I'm 100# more on each front wheel and 100# less on each back wheel. I also have the Pontiac motor with cast iron heads.

Thanx for that data point. Is your battery in the front or back, I can't remember at the moment. Mine is rear, which helps a little. Mine was almost full tank of fuel as well.

I've seen you mention his name before. I've never seen his name in the LS forums I read (LS1tech, Corvette Forums), but I get the impression from his Instagram page that he does more builds for cars like ours or show cars. Am I wrong on that? I'll do some Googling on him...

It's a fair question. And a decision that I'm not taking lightly, I promise...

There are a few factors at play here. Yes, cost is one of them, but I'm not letting it be the driving decision for me (all in, including my assumed Eric fab time, I'm looking at around $6.5 - 7k for the switch). The bigger issue is fitment of the tank.

Last night I spent an hour under the hood with my 'mockup' oil tank:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psrrrwtrp0.jpg

Some cardboard and posterboard built in the shape and size of the smallest tank recommended for me to use (6" diameter, 19.5" tall, ~2 gallon capacity). I'm trying to find a space to mount this.

Eric mounted a tank in SW's Camaro behind the passenger side headlight. That is the preferred spot for convenience / accessibility / hose routing. On my car though, I'd swear the inner fender is different in that area, and it would be a lot harder to cut / route the tank into that space. Not to mention I already have stuff in that area.

So then I am looking at a firewall mount. Because of the downbars we have as well as the AC hoses going into the car and the location of the header, I'm not comfortable that this location will work. Will my mock up fit? Yes, but only barely. By the time I add the clamps for mounting, I have less than 1/2" from the header tube to the side of the tank. That's not enough for me to be comfortable that it will actually fit, or not boil the oil in the tank due to heat.

Oh, not to mention that I'm not completely comfortable that the firewall would support the weight of a tank and 2G of oil right there without some significant reinforcement.

I also looked at the driver's side behind the headlight. That's where my radiator catch can is, and I still have the inner fender problem.

Any of these could be solved with more significant work to sheetmetal or header reshaping, etc. The problem becomes time. As I said, Eric is busy, and I'm not equipped to do it myself. But even if I were, I'm not 100% certain I have a spot available that would really work. I even looked at hanging it behind the radiator, but again there isn't enough clearance between the fans and the accessories.

Note that I do currently have an LS7 block. But I have a wet sump crank. I could convert to the LS7 dry sump, but if I'm going dry sump, I'm going Dailey external. I'll be using my current LS3-based heads on the new block. They make plenty of power, although stepping to an LS7 architecture would have more potential. That's for the next project. ;)

I believe that I'm going to solve my problem with a better build, a fixed Accusump circuit, restricted flow pushrods, and a better oil pump (and possibly pan change, I'm going to look into that also). As Greg said, plenty of people run the LS engines without having oil supply problems. I will solve this!

In a continued effort to find a possible solution to adding an oil tank, I Googled tank companies today. I found one that will build a custom tank in any shape I want: Stef's. I gave them a call, and it seems like they can really build just about any shape, so it's up to me to determine the best shape...

I posted a picture of my cylinder that I made yesterday. Here are some shots of me trying to fit it. You can see, it's really tight, especially to the header:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psckvc4nvz.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psvsgjilgp.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps8afcgaqj.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...pshbw2qqpl.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psyabwcpkf.jpg

I just don't think that's going to work, and this is a 2-gallon tank. I'm getting conflicting opinions as to whether that's big enough, which means I should probably target something larger.

So I pulled out the tape measure and came up with some dimensions. Then the box cutter and cardboard. :)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psnauof8ib.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...psjuhvdffa.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...pscsvuoved.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps2whjfth0.jpg

This was a 12x12x5 box. It needs to be angled at the inner fender which cuts down on the available volume, but I also can go a little deeper at the firewall/back side. Doing a lot of math, I've determined that I can get a total volume of between 2.75 and 3.25 gallons. The effective volume would be less, as there has to be some air space at the top where the oil return comes back in.

Tomorrow I'm going to build some more models after doing my calcs. Making a box like this will restrict access to some things (#8 plug, although I can still get to it), the rear-most UCA screw (which I can get to from the bottom). But it may be a viable option...

More to come...

Slowly.... Step away from the cardboard.... :lol:

Peterson 2.5 gallon on a LS in that location.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...psr7h9a0yq.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps6648f432.jpg

Why not run multiple tanks?