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Not sure...that is the "next" stage... ;)
I'm currently working on pages 82, 97 and 99... :D And the answer is still "a lot". |
Great build! I may be acquiring an 85 Monte SS, so this thread will be getting saved...lol
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Stuff is about to get real... :D
https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._092709-XL.jpg Everyone knows I've needed a brake upgrade on Barney for years...MANY years in fact. Ever since finding out about Ron Sutton developing a kit to adapt Stoptech brake kits onto Pro-Touring cars, I've known that's what I wanted for Barney. I only want to do this once and I want to do it right!! The issue causing the long delay in installing them was there isn't a kit available to adapt the brakes to the stock G-body metric spindles I currently have on the car. I spent SO much time dialing in the front end geometry and the steering based on these stock spindles, I was hesitatant to just install another set of spindles...knowing what it would take to keep the geometry optimized. What you see in the picture above is everything that I'll need to use to dial the geometry back to (and hopefully even better than) what I currently run. This is no small undertaking but with Ron's guidance, some perseverance, and probably a few choice four letter words...I hope to have the new spindles installed in the next week or so. Then... THEN... We can get around to upgrading the brakes to the best brake kit out on the market... Stoptechs... I can't wait!!! |
2wd Blazer spindles?
They have the same g body geometry and can use a C5/C6 caliper abutment. This is what we did on Montel. |
If I end up keeping Old Yeller (will at least until the new Track Warrior car is finished anyway) - I'm thinking I'd for certain upgrade my current Wilwoods to the new StopTechs Sutton is offering.
Now -- pick up a tool, and do something with it!!! LOL |
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I know many that have gone this route, and it was something I considered as well. The wheel bearing would still be an issue and fitment of Ron's adapter kits were another question mark. These spindles use a C7 hub which is stout and inexpensive to replace at the same time which takes the bearing part out of question. And Ron has worked out all of the geometry to make sure his kits adapt the Stoptech brakes to these spindles with no issues. This was never about me finding a cheap way to upgrade the brakes, it was much more about finding the easiest way to put the best brakes possible on Barney while optimizing not only the camber gain, but the steering geometry at the same time. Time was also a factor, I have a very small window to get this swap done while I still have a lift and a shop to work on it in. Taking unknowns out of the equation helped make the decision to press the buy button now and get started. |
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I'll get the tools out shortly...just need a few more boxes to show up before tearing things apart. |
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Lance. Those new spindles and tall balljoints should help with camber gain and I'm sure Ron has everything worked out so you can eliminate any bump steer and optimize that inside tire contact with the caster adjustment you have. Will you gain any Ackerman with the new steering gear? Maybe Ron will chime in a little about the specifics of the specs. The Stoptech's on AO are the best working part of the car. I'm more than happy with my brakes.:thumbsup: |
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Hey Rob, Great questions. With the change from the G-body spindles Lance had ... and the custom height Howe ball joints to optimize geometry ... the Speedtech ATS Tall spindle only required the lower ball joint studs to be changed for us to achieve optimum roll center. For the most part, Lance's geometry will stay "almost" the same as it was, which was already optimum as far as: * Roll center height at ground level in dive * Roll center migration toward the inside front tire CL * Optimum camber gain The only changes we achieved to the roll center was: * Roll center migration PAST the inside front tire CL * This will provide a little more grip out of the inside front tire when cornering The biggest gain we made was ... drum roll please ... * More Ackerman * This will provide a LOT more grip out of the inside front tire when cornering * So, we'll need to add more rear grip to keep it balanced As Lance stated, the primary reason for the spindle change was so he could go to the new Triple Duty StopTech brakes now ... versus 6-9 months from now. These brakes are flippin' amazing. By having an ultra rigid caliper like the StopTech ST60 (proved most rigid in my independent testing versus Brembo, AP, Baer & Wilwood) I could ... and did ... increase the piston sizes & area substantially. That combined with the lightweight (only 16#), cool running 14" StopTech AeroRotors® created a high braking force package with street performance pads ... instead of race pads. The pad we use is unique in that it has good cold bite, a .40 CoF (typical of high performance street/sport pads) and will handle up to 1200° with zero fade. With all other pads, we get EITHER ... good cold bite & low heat tolerance (typically 700-750°) ... or good heat tolerance (1100-1400°) and poor cold bite. This is the first pad I've tested that offers both. A big difference is these pads utilize the newer "Adhesive Technology" that lays down a layer of material on the rotor. The pad & the adhesive layer is where the .40 CoF comes from. A lot of pads use older "Abrasive Technology" where the pad just grinds on the rotors & wears them out. While we will be offering this special pad for most other brake systems, the pad is only part of the magic. The braking force would be no different than any other .40 CoF pad ... in common braking packages. It's the rigid caliper & higher piston area combined with this pad that makes the magic. The pads have very little squeal or sound to them. They do dust up some, but less than HP+ or other Autocross pads & way less than Track Day/ Race pads. Here are my Total Braking Force Guidelines: 2500# = Average passenger car 3000# = Performance street car (Corvettes, Vipers, etc) 3500# = Good track braking system with big tires 4000# = Race braking system with wide slicks 4500# = Full race brake systems with serious downforce & wide slicks Here is how the StopTech systems I’ve created works out: StopTech ST60 Front / ST40 Rear / 14” Rotors / 309 Performance Pad = 3460# Braking Force What's the big deal? * That's more than a ZR1 Corvette * One pad compound does street, autocross & track days * A full set of pads front & rear only cost $186 * Longer pad life & Longer rotor life * Less inertia & unsprung weight with lightweight 14" rotors * Cooler running brakes In short, these are the best brakes designed for triple duty Pro-Touring cars that drive on the street & do autocross and/or track days. More info & applications HERE :cheers: |
^ Yeah that!!! :trophy-1302:
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QFT....for realz. |
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I now have tracking numbers on the final (and prettiest) parts needed... :gitrdun: Garage sale Friday and Sat...then we start disassembly. Hope I don't sell any tools that I'll need for this. :peepwall: |
Quoted for truth.
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Is it done yet?:stirthepot:
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Donny knows firsthand ... because he has installed & run the new StopTech brakes on ProTouring cars on street & autocross with the 309 pad. Giddy up ! :bigun2: |
.....and track days. The out stopped the previous boosted setup on track without issue, without changing pads.
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Nice box!
Is it done yet? LOL |
You all are so impatient... You are supposed to stop and smell the roses along the way, remember?
Last day of garage sale today, work on Barney starts tomorrow... |
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:popcorn2: |
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These are the ONLY brake systems that do ALL this: * Provide more braking force than a ZR1 or C7 Corvette * Have the most Rigid Calipers, Big Piston Area & 14" Aero Rotors & Hats * Designed specifically for Manual Brake Pro-Touring Cars doing "Triple Duty" * Utilizes ONE PAD for Street & Autocross with great cold bite & Track Days up to 1200° with zero fade !!! * These Pads are new "Adhesive Technology" = low dust, low squeal, long life, low cost AND don't eat up rotors! * No other brake system on the market today compares Learn more here: http://www.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/catalog/?page=94 |
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https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._132738-XL.jpg Barney is on the now leveled rack, simulated driver weight in front seat, ride heights marked, ready for disassembly tomorrow morning... https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._132752-XL.jpg First thing with be a test fitment of rotors and calipers installed on new ATS spindles then placed into one of the Forgeline wheels...just to be sure. Then I'll pull the springs off the shocks, pull stock spindles and steering assemblies off and start bolting all the new stuff on. Plan is to mock all steering stuff in place and spend some time cycling the suspension and getting the bumpsteer and ackerman to Dr Ron's liking...then we'll get busy putting these beautiful new brakes in place. |
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Assuming you have the 309 pads in that box, I'll be interested to hear your opinion. I have Hawk HP+ in the Camaro, ran HPS' in the Miata, and installed the 309's in another car with Brembo calipers and during the aggressive Stop Tech bedding process was very impressed with the pad's feel and performance. :thumbsup:
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The brake packages I designed utilizing StopTech ST60 calipers front, ST40 calipers rear & Stoptech's lighter, cooler running 14" AeroRotors ... are a higher performing product, with many more benefits & features ... as well as a significantly higher price tag. I didn't design these new brakes to be price competitive. I designed them to be the best possible brakes you can buy for a Pro-Touring car ... especially if the car is also used for autocross & track days. I feel these two brands of brake products appeal to different customers. The Wilwood Aerolite 6 packages are the "best bang for the buck" and the Stoptech packages I've created are the very highest level of performance braking for Pro-Touring cars. The long list of Features & Benefits my StopTech systems have over other brake systems are:
Depending on application, we sell the Wilwood Aerolite 6 front brake packages for $1819 to 1899. (Same as Jegs & Summit) My StopTech front packages run $3295 to $3495, depending on whether the application needs hubs or not. I didn't list the front hub features above, because some brake packages (like the C5/C6, Speedtech ATS, DSE, Roadster Shop, AME & others utilizing the C5/C6 mounting) don't need hubs. I’ll do that in a separate post. Continued in the next post. |
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I didn't list the front hub features in the previous post, because some brake packages (like the C5/C6, Speedtech ATS, DSE, Roadster Shop, AME & others utilizing the C5/C6 mounting) don't need hubs. For cars with regular spindles that need hubs … read on …
The list of Features & Benefits from the Hubs is pretty impressive too:
We still need to discuss hub bearings. But first we should bring everyone up to speed on the wheel bearing issue. I almost didn't design hubs & brake kits for several series of Muscle Cars from the 60's & early 70's ... as they came from the factory with tiny outer wheel/hub bearings rated under 1000# for thrust load. Most of you that know me, remember the online discussions we had about these weak, dangerous outer hub bearings a few years ago. I didn’t want to design brakes & hubs for spindle with bearings I knew would fail. Better brakes just adds to the loading. Most GM, Ford & Mopar muscle cars from the 60’s & 70’s came with outer hub bearings rated at only 917# or 922# of thrust load. Fine ... back in the day ... when these cars came with G70-14 bias ply tires & the cars struggled to pull .8G. Today, with modern tires, suspensions & brakes, we're pulling 1.4G on autocross courses & 1.6-2.0G on road courses. Yes ... in Pro-Touring cars with 315/335 TW200 tires. The thrust loads on the hub bearings are up in the 1200#-1500# range. Here is a list of cars/spindles/hubs & their outer bearings with thrust load ratings for you to ponder: Ford/Mercury:
GM
Mopar:
Aftermarket Spindles:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, all the listings above in red, I was NOT going to create hubs & brake kits for … unless I could increase the outer hub bearing size & thrust load rating. We did. I worked with Timken bearing engineers & came up with solutions for almost all of them. Here are the bearings I used, in each hub design for the applications we offer, or will offer our Triple Duty StopTech Brakes Optimized by RSRT. A. All of the cars & spindles that come with LM12649 outer bearings … simply come with the best LM12649 bearing available … Timken. These are true 1130# thrust load rated, where a lot of off brands & imports do not meet that load rating, or simply don’t have their bearings tested. B. All of the cars & spindles that come with LM12748/9 outer bearings thrust load rated at 921# … I designed new hubs that allow us to utilize the Timken LM12649 bearing, thrust load rated at 1130#. This increases their thrust load capacity by over 20%. C. All of the cars & spindles that come with LM11949 Bearing rated at 917# … I designed new hubs that allow us to use the Timken #21075 bearing, thrust load rated at … ready … 2540#. That is not a typo. It is a commonly available Timken automotive bearing. It is bigger, beefier, handles more heat & has bigger rollers with more surface area. When it’s time, you can buy replacement bearings around $20 each. This increases the bearing’s thrust load capacity by over 275%. D. All cars that utilize the C5/C6/C7 mounting, we simply suggest you utilize the stronger, higher rated C6 ZR1 or C7 hub & bearing versions. Now a really cool part … my StopTech brake packages with these superior hubs, dust caps, reusable seal mounting, ARP ½” x 3” long studs & strong(er) Timken bearings ONLY add $200 to the cost of a front brake kit! We do NOT sell these hubs separately (unless you need a replacement). If I did, they would cost $800-900 a pair. So when you’re shopping brakes, compare the big picture & I think you’ll find:
See them HERE ... Call me at 844-722-3832 Ext 3 ... or Email me HERE - Ron Sutton Ron Sutton Race Technology 11374 Amalgam Way Gold River, CA 95630 Website: RonSuttonRaceTechnology.com |
I just can't stop staring at them...
https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._162304-X2.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._162320-X2.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._144837-X2.jpg Rotors, calipers and spindles with steering arms reversed all fit beautifully...tons of room everywhere. The dropped adjustable centerlink would not clear the triangulation brace mounting pad and the tie rods ended up being about 2" too short because we flipped the steering arms out to get more ackerman. Longer tie rods are on the way and then I'll get the bumpsteer adjusted and head on to the rear brakes. Huge thanks to "Ronstar" for being available for several calls along the way today. Just try to reach any other parts supplier or suspension specialist multiple times on a Sunday afternoon!!! |
Holy Guacamole Ron. What a detailed answer (copy and paste lol). Seriously though, good stuff, thanx for your commitment to our community.
Lance, you move yet? i miss it? |
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Ron,
A couple of questions: Quote:
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Obviously you can assemble these kits however you want I assume. But I cannot tell if/how to identify whether my rotors float? This would be a great feature to help stave off the purchase of a full floater on the rear of my car, although admittedly I haven't yet experienced a real problem with knock back that I'm aware of... Thanx! |
Without copying/pasting all of the pictures in that hub post, man the specs on that hub are impressive! Presumably the stock spindle can handle the above which the hub should now be able to??? That's some serious forces...
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You're welcome. An old friend of mine & I were having lunch one day and he gave me a odd compliment that was pretty accurate. He said, "Ron, I've known you for years. You never do anything half-ass. You always do stuff an ass & half." :rofl: We were laughing our butt off. But it's true with my racing, family, life, etc. In this world, if a product on the market does what I want, I don't copy it. I just use it. But when I see the need for a better product, I put every improvement into it I can. I don't want the new product to be "a little bit better." I work on it until it is leaps & bounds above what was available. These brakes are that way. They're not "a little bit better" ... they are leaps & bounds better than any brake system available so far. But me saying that won't mean much. As more people get them on Pro-Touring cars running street, AX & Track ... my claims will prove to be true ... and that will count for more. :cheers: |
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Hey Bryan! It's hard to believe as long as my detailed answer was that I left something out, but I did. I meant to add some text that explained the * asterisk, but forgot. Here goes ... When I first came into the Pro-Touring world in late 2012, I was surprised at the brake problems that existed. People were buying & installing big brake kits on their Pro-Touring cars ... driving them on the street ... and running them in autocross & track day events ... with complaints of low braking force. The people "solving" their low braking force problem were switching from street performance pads to full on race pads. I have seen a ton of them utilizing Hawk DTC-60 & DTC-70 racing pads. That's about as aggressive a race pad as you can run. There are better race pads, but not much higher CoF than a Hawk DTC-70 race pad. But these high CoF race pads are horrible for street driven Pro-Touring cars. * Race Pads cost 3 to 4 times as much * Race Pads wear out 2 to 4 times quicker * Race Pads dust up like mad * Race Pads squeal like crazy * A friend of mine says they couldn't sneak up on a Rock Concert. LOL * And as a bonus, Race Pads eat up your rotors As I looked at the challenge of a brake system to do all three, the problem with the brake packages on the market were obvious to me. None of the current systems had enough clamping force from caliper. The piston area in the caliper was too small. So their only solution was high CoF race pads. While brake technology is complex, the concepts are simple. There are four things that make braking force. 1. Hydraulic pressure from the pedal & M/C (and booster if utilized) 2. Clamping force of the caliper from that pressure x piston area 3. Rotor size (Leverage) 4. Pad CoF (Coefficient of Friction of the pad material) In 2012, the pro-Touring brake systems all came with small piston area. When I studied the calipers, it was clear we couldn't simply increase piston sizes, as the calipers offered were too small, too thin & too weak. What I'm saying is they lacked the structure integrity & rigidity to handle more clamping force without flexing. If you increase the hydraulic pressure to a caliper like this ... through higher pedal ratio or smaller master cylinder ... all it does is flex the caliper more. The same thing happens if we increase the piston sizes (piston area) in a weak caliper. It just flexes more, in a clam shell sort of way. When you do this, calculations on paper may show the braking force going up 20%, but the real world "measured" braking force increase may only be 2-5%. That loss is from the caliper flexing. Caliper rigidity is a big deal in a performance or racing brake system. That much caliper flex is dangerous & annoying. The pedal feels like mush. There are videos out there showing these calipers flexing like crazy when people increased the hydraulic pressure or piston area in weak calipers. The solution sounds simple. We need calipers with larger piston area so we don't have to run high CoF race pads. But this would require a much stiffer front caliper to handle this larger piston area ... and not flex. I was excited when Wilwood introduced the Aerolite calipers. They were significantly more rigid than anything being offered at the time in 2014. I probably have 100 customers running that caliper with the increased piston area from 4.04" to 5.40". They work a lot better. I still like that system today, but frankly I wanted something even better than that. So I set out to find the stiffest caliper I could ... to build my new brake systems around. I went to a private company with a brake dyno and did back-to-back tests of 5 brands of calipers, all with the same piston area, same pad compound, same rotor size & same hydraulic pressure. The Test Results: StopTech ST 60 Caliper / .010" Caliper Flex / 984# Braking Force Brand X 6 Piston Caliper / .013" Caliper Flex / 972# Braking Force Brand Y 6 Piston Caliper / .016" Caliper Flex / 965# Braking Force Brand Y 6 Piston Caliper / .070" Caliper Flex / 922# Braking Force Brand A 6 Piston Caliper / .105" Caliper Flex / 886# Braking Force So I made a deal with Stoptech to co-design & manufacture a new line of cutting edge brake systems, specifically for Pro-Touring Muscle cars doing triple duty on the street, autocross & track days. The new systems did everything I wanted ... because we designed them to ... with one BIG bonus. Never in my wildest dreams did I think we could do all 3 with one pad. But the StopTech 309 performance pad ... which is only .40-.45 CoF ... had excellent cold bite for autocross (and street) and had zero brake fade up to 1200°. Frankly it has only a small brake fade at that point up to 1400°. It is an amazing pad. By itself, it doesn't have a high enough CoF for the small piston brake systems out there. But combined with the rigid ST60 front & ST40 rear calipers ... the braking force of 3460# is higher than Zr1 or C7 Corvette. Giddy Up ! This video is NOT my test. But this video shows a caliper flex test of the StopTech St60 versus a Brembo monoblock caliper. Go here: ------------------------------------------------- Floating rotors? The StopTech rotor mounting hardware is engineered with a conical washer made out of inconel ... the same material in high end exhaust valves. This inconel conical shaped washer acts like a temperature controlled spring. At low temps, driving around town or on the freeway, the washer is in its conical shape ... holding the rotor to the hat rigid. It's the same way at room temp when you're checking it in your garage. This is so the rotors do not rattle and make a lot of noise during street/freeway driving. As the brakes get warmer, from usage on track, the washers actually flatten out ... allowing the rotor to float on the hat. :trophy-1302: Road racers actually change the conical washers to flat washers, so they float all the time. But they don't care about the rattling noises the driver hears at low speeds. :cheers: |
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I have run flex tests on OEM spindles to see how much camber change was happening from spindle snout flex at higher G-loads. A typical GM spindle snout for a 64-72 A-Body, 67-69 F-Body or 64-74 X-Body flexes about .040-.045" at 1400# of load, which is about .5° of camber change. The Ridetech AFX dropped spindle flexes less, because it is a better spindle ... made out of better steel than the old OEM spindles. But in high loads around 1400# ... we see some flex in it as well. Just less. That is why Ridetech team cars utilized the Speedtech ExtReme spindle for awhile & then developed their own modular spindle that utilizes the C7 bearings. The goal in upsizing the bearings is to handle the 1200# to 1500# thrust loads we're seeing ... to prevent bearing failure ... which can be catastrophic at speed on a road course. The 1130# bearing in some of our packages is "better" than the 917-921# bearings by 20% ... but still need to be monitored. The killer 2540# rated bearing we're utilizing in a lot of kits is overkill. I'd been fine with bearing rated at 1600#-1800#. But this 2540# rated Timken bearing is available through regular parts stores, so I went with it. Hopefully that made some sense. |
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:lmao: :cheers: |
Ron,
Thanx for the great answers! (as always ;) ). |
Front is done except bleeding and stuffing some grease in some zerks.
On to the rears in the morning... Y'all are probably tired of pics of them by now so I'll just save them for myself. :D |
:ttiwop: :ttiwop: :ttiwop:
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