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The main part of the difficulty of this brake swap was the swapping of the spindles to a spindle that would take the brake package. We had the front end geometry pretty dang good with the stock metric spindle but in order to bolt these fabulous Stoptech brakes on, a spindle change was necessary. Because of a tight time frame for install, I told Ron I needed a spindle with the least amount of changes necessary to get the geometry back to or better than I had before, he chose the ATS tall.
Basically the ATS is a 1" drop spindle that is also 1" taller than the G body spindle. To compensate for the 1" drop, Ron had me change my tall lower ball joints for ones 1" shorter. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._110129-XL.jpg This was not only super simple, but also put the lower control arms in exactly the same spot as before so I didn't have to adjust ride height after the swap. I'm sure he'll say it was for geometry reasons but whatever. :D So the spindle is in, ride height same as it was before, now it was time to work on the steering. The ATS comes with a modular steering arm that is curved as it extends away from the spindle. Instructions say to mount it with the curve pointed toward the center of the car. Ron told me to swap them and mount it with the curve pointed out to increase the ackerman. Ron also sent me a new slug adjustable center link and all new rod ends and curved tie rods to try to optimize the steering geometry. Unfortunately, my crossmember has a nub sticking out to attach the triangulation brace to which was in the way of the new centerlink. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._130945-XL.jpg With the steering arms pointed out, that meant the tie rods needed to be about 2" longer...fortunately the bump steer kit I had before was able to extend the tie rods out far enough to reach. Everything clears with no interference anywhere and I was able to dial the bump steer back to close to previous specs very easily. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._151359-XL.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._151315-XL.jpg Where I pause the lift is pretty close to ride height. From ride height to full bump it toes out about 3/16" and from ride height up it toes in just a touch if at all. Check out that camber gain though!! In the interest of time once again, I called this good enough and moved forward with the rest of brake install. I'll revisit fine tuning the alignment specs when I have more time. So spindles and steering locked in, time to install the calipers. Pretty straight forward here but couple of things I found interesting. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._203711-XL.jpg See that top left piston sticking out? I'm assuming it has a knock back spring behind it because when you push it in, it immediately starts to spring back out again. This made installing the brake pads interesting for sure. I finally figured out that a putty knife is a pretty good tool to use to hold the piston in while sliding the pads in place. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._204238-XL.jpg Here is the bridge reinstalled. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._204540-XL.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._204550-XL.jpg One more thing, I had some questions about how much unsprung weight these huge rotors and calipers added...so I weighed the G-body spindle, caliper and rotor. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._125931-XL.jpg Then weighed the new Stopech 14" rotor, 6 piston ST60 caliper and ATS Spindle. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._130212-XL.jpg Virtually the exact same weight! All the added brake force with no added weight. Woot!! Front is done except bleeding and greasing, I'm starting on the rear today. Wish me luck with the calipers fitting inside the frame rails. Today will either go pretty smooth, or stop in a hurry based on that. |
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Laughing about fighting the knockback spring...... I have the Griggs Racing rear calipers on the 2007 Mustang.... They have these springs as well.... I ended up having to buy a tool to hold them back - and the only way that worked was to remove the caliper from the rotor - slide the pads in - and then use the tool to jack them both back as far as they'd go.... then with tool in place - slide the business back over the rotor.
I have the StopTechs up front on that car - but nobody makes a rear except for Griggs, for this one year (2007) only rear end. |
I might be interested in said tool Greg, I can imagine this might even be more difficult once brake fluid gets in the caliper also. Link to it?
The rears are pretty much mocked in place. Still trying to decide what to do with the flex lines before I button everything up. While the pic I posted above shows a bunch of room between the caliper and frame rail, I forgot that the brake line comes out of that side of the caliper. I think the lines i have will work for now but to really be neat and tidy a shorter line with a straight banjo instead of an angled banjo fitting might be a better choice. First off, lets talk about the backing plate Ron designed and how slick it is. Putting a brake backing plate on a 9" with Torino axle housing ends can be difficult. I've had the fight many times with my Ford Explorer brake kit which is similar in design in some ways...but then way different in other ways. The axle bearing is pressed onto the axle and whatever you use as a plate has to also double as the retainer that holds that bearing in the axle end. Ron designed this plate to be two piece so you can take it apart, place it over the axle behind the bearing then put it back together again. SO slick!! You then reassemble the e-brake setup on the front side of the plate with the axle on the bench and it's ready to slide into place all in one piece. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._145524-X2.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._150813-X2.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._150701-X2.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._150705-X2.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._151233-X2.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._151248-X2.jpg The next battle with this setup is getting wrenches onto the e-brake cable ends to tight the cable housing to the bracket. This setup makes it super easy to just rotate the whole backing plate one hole around getting the bracket from out behind the shock brackets so you can get a wrench on it. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._152338-X2.jpg Just one nut on a Tee bolt holds this all in place while you tighten the locknut on the cable end. Then just loosen that nut again and roll the plate back into place. https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._152910-X2.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._152914-X2.jpg Here's the caliper in place... https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont..._155135-X2.jpg Think I'll end up moving the caliper down one more hole to the bottom ones just to take up some of the slack in the flex line and give me a comfort zone between the banjo fitting and frame. It pretty sweet looking though, isn't it? Hope to button it all up tomorrow... If all goes well, I may even get to race it in Topeka on Saturday. |
I bought this one --- one handed operation -- works just exactly like I needed it to.
https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-29100-Q...e+pad+spreader |
Perfect!! Thanks...
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Hello...Bueller Bueller... Is this thing on? :D
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Nice job, looks great! Can't wait to hear how they perform for you...
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Great set up Lance!! Can't wait to hear the results!
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Nightly update...
I hate brake line leaks... That is all... |
:bang:
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My hard lines on rear axle had the short fittings on end to flex lines. The unions with the brake kit have deep females ends on them and the fittings wont go far enough into union to seal.
So yes, I get to make new hard lines today.... Yay!!! |
No leaks!
Brake calipers centered on rotors and bled...just about to go test drive!! |
And then......?
So did you slam your face into the steering wheel the first hit of the brakes?:thumbsup: |
That's a sweet setup Lance. Now that I see all the angles it makes sense they're so rigid. #Racecar
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Very nice, Lance. I'm glad everything went fairly smoothly for you. Those front brake really fill in the wheel.
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This upgrade was a LONG time coming. I've been racing this car in earnest for over 5 years and have needed a brake upgrade for at least the last 4 years. I knew of several options that were fairly bolt-onish but at the same time they only offered a moderate upgrade over what I had...I wanted more. I wanted to only do this once and to do it right.
When I found out about the Stoptech Big Brake Kit Ron Sutton was developing and especially when I held the ST60 calipers in my hand about this time last year at SEMA, I knew that was the direction I wanted to go. All one has to do is to search for "brakes not stopping good" threads on any PT forum and you will see so many people not happy with their big brake upgrade kit's performance. I wanted to avoid that completely. If I was going to go thru the trouble to redo the whole front geometry to put a big brake kit on, I wanted it to be right the first time. During the bed in process of the pads the first time out of the garage, performance was confirmed! The brakes are night and day different over what I had before and frankly, as good as any other car I've driven both on course and street. Even though this system was designed for a manual setup, I am using the factory G-body power booster master cylinder (for now). I can rest my heel on the floor and with just my toes on the brake pedal bring this car to an immediate stop with just moderate pressure and pedal throw. Locking the brakes up is NOT an issue either. :D It will take some getting used to for sure and I have a little bit of prop valve adjusting to do to dial in the rear brake bias...but I'm confident they would work great on course or on track right now as they sit. We may at some point in the future play with a different size power master cylinder or even a manual master cylinder but for now, they work just fine. Unfortunately they won't be debuting in Topeka this weekend. My carb flooding issue is still present so it is coming off today and being sent off to remedy or replace. This saddens me but at the same time I'm super happy to have completed this total brake upgrade in a little less than 5 days total. That speaks to the quality of this package Ron put together and the fantastic set of parts it includes. This was my first attempt at a Big Brake install and while I learned some things along the way...for the most part it was pretty much plug n play both front and rear. Thanks to Ron for all the help...and for developing the BEST Big Brake Kit on the market today. |
Just a bit more "seat of the pants" first impressions of the new brakes...
With the old brakes, after we put the oversize metric calipers on several years ago, the pedal throw became fairly long. We attributed it to the increased fluid the larger pistons needed to move. With the engine off, you would press the brake pedal until it firmed up (quite a ways down really) then you could press even harder on it and get the pedal to go further down...almost to the floor. After I vacuum bled all 8 bleeders on the 4 new calipers, I hopped in the seat and immediately felt a much firmer pedal with a surprisingly much shorter throw. I then put the wife in the seat to be the pedal pusher and hoisted her up in the air. I have to say, these calipers are SO much easier to bleed than OEM style calipers. With the bleeders pointing straight up, you put a clear tube over the bleeder, point it straight up then over to catch can, have your pedal pusher pump the pedal, crack the bleeder and you can feel immediately if any air in there and as it releases. With fluid in the tube over the bleeder, it's very easy to close it again without letting any air back in. Once done with this I hopped back in the seat and pressed the pedal...it was even firmer still but the best part was...once the pedal firmed up, it didn't move ANY further down at all, well maybe just a bit...but that was probably firewall flex. I'm not kidding, I could tell a huge difference in pedal feel after the pads made pressure on the rotors over what I had before. Being a hard line hydraulic system, this can only be the result of two things firming up...the 4 flex lines and the calipers themselves. The flex lines that came off of the care consisted of braided steel fronts about 5 years old I guess and rubber rears about the same age. Remember though, I had the prop valve on the rears just about closed with the old setup. Anyway, there is no flex now, when the brakes hit...they hit. Can't wait to play more with them and dial in the bias. More importantly...can't wait to test them out on a course at speed. |
It's been a busy month or so since my last update. I got the brakes bled and bedded in then had to send the carb out for repair. I got it back with about a day to get it installed then left on a two week trip to New Mexico and Arizona...just getting back to KC Friday. Today was kind of a rest up day, so I found some time to drive Barney around a bit and tune on the new shocks and try to find out how bad a new tire rub is.
The spindle\brake upgrade moved my front wheels out about a half inch each and the outside edge of my right front tire is rubbing the plastic inner fender top under hard compression. Before the tire just tucked inside a ridge and now it just kisses it. After many trips around the neighborhood with different shock settings and the GoPro pointed at the top of the tire...I think it has clearanced itself. :D Regardless, I had fun driving it around and I can't wait to race it here at the Kansas City Region SCCA final race of the season next Sunday and my final race here before I move West. Brand new shocks, brand new brakes and new tires should make for a fun day of race tuning... I'll report back post race to let everyone know how it all went. |
Yay!!
Ah the old tire rub.... I get it once in awhile on Old Yeller.... we squeezed as much tire in there as we could -- put it on a wider rim -- and blah blah blah... it just barely kisses the outer right rear if I'm really leaning on it. LOL Glad she's all back together! |
Good luck at the races, hopefully you see some improvement right off or at least have an opportunity to dial things in for next season. Looking forward to hearing how it went.
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Kansas City SCCA. What kind of race? Good luck, I'm sure the changes will net some noticable improvements.
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It's our last autocross of the season...200 drivers registered. Called Halloweenie, people costume up their cars and all profits from event are given to a local charity called Go Baby Go.
Always a good time with just a little bit of racing mixrd in. |
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Weather Forecast for this Sunday... 49 degrees for a high...
Tell me again why I'm still in KC... lol |
Because mid summer forecast for the western desert states- 120+ degrees.
"But it's a dry heat." Yeah, dry heat, like a turkey in the oven at Thanksgiving dry heat. lol! I think we should all just move to Hawaii. |
Chicago Regions last autocross is Saturday and Sunday. 43 for a high both days and 50/50 chance for rain.....YaY...... having a co driver pays off in this weather.
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A chance for rain at 43 degrees would make me re-think things I'm pretty sure... :D
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Looking good, Lance
Good luck this weekend. I think next weeks forecast is going to be a permanent grin!:excited: |
Had a great day at the track yesterday. Went out on a completely untested setup with new brakes, new shocks and new steering geometry and the car was balanced and driveable right away. the only thing I tuned on during my 4 runs was rear brake bias, started out with too much, took WAY too much out then slowly put it back in after each of the last 2 runs finally getting it pretty close.
Times were good enough for 13th in PAX out of 175 drivers, 15th in overall raw time. I was VERY pleased. The carb issues seem to be taken care of as well (thanks Bob). Here's the video of my fastest run, what a fun course!! We ran this EXACT same course at this event last year and my times were about 1 full second faster this year over last. That tells me that both the car and the driver just keep getting better. Great picture captured exiting the final corner on the final run of the day... https://photos.smugmug.com/1985-Mont...78035761_n.jpg Here are the PAX results https://kcrscca.org/results/solo/201...vent12_pax.htm The RAW time results https://kcrscca.org/results/solo/201...vent12_raw.htm And the final class results. https://kcrscca.org/results/solo/201...2_fin.htm#camc Ended up 6 tenths off of Keith in his National Championship winning 2011 Camaro on 335s square with my 32 year old G body on 275s... Pretty dang happy with that. Now it's off to Phoenix in a week or so to start a new chapter of life. Can't wait to get my feet wet in a new racing environment. Hope to fly back in and co-drive with my KC racing friends whenever I can though, gonna miss the racing camaraderie we've developed here over the years. Also hope they'll come out to the PHX and co-drive Barney with me out there when they are down for the season here. |
Two thumbs up! So if it's about where it was out of the box is there more in it now to tap into with the new parts?
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The driver on the other hand...needs to learn how to be even faster on the new setup. Watching the videos back I found several places I could have carried way more speed with it. |
Nice job.
Do you record all your runs for future review? I missed it, why are you moving to Phoenix? |
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Regarding PHX, have you stepped outside lately? ��] |
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Regretfully, yes I have and I completely understand. Last weekend was especially brutal for no reason. :( I have a friend who moved to northern Florida last year with the exact same thought. The concept of moving from here crossed my mind several times last week and several times last winter. The hardest part is I have a lot of cars, related parts and tools to move... but with proper planning it can be done. The older I get the less I like cold so it's going to happen, just when... |
As much as I like my new big Stoptech brakes (and trust me, I LIKE them a lot...) I think I'm more happy about the steering geometry changes... I'll try to describe to you how it changed after adding the new ATS spindles and reversed steering arms, but I'm not sure I can do it justice.
I see autocross cars on course all the time with a ton of static camber dialed in to help the outside front tire grip in corners, but at the same time...you look at the inside front tire in a turn and maybe 1/4 or sometimes even less of that tire's contact patch is on the ground. The owners or drivers will say "Well, the inside front tire isn't doing anything anyway, so what does it matter?" If the inside front tire grip in a turn doesn't matter, how can doing something as simple as adding Ackerman make such a dramatic change in the way my car turns? Every car that is setup to turn should already be optimized to get 100% of the possible grip from the outside front tire...that is a given. After that, the only way to get even more front grip is to help the inside front tire. After this latest change to my car, I can tell you that when you do, you WILL feel it!! I first noticed the difference when I went to my testing track (large cloverleaf interchange with 25 mph long sweeping corners). Mid corner, steady speed about 85 mph, I could put just a little bit of steering wheel into it and the front would turn and almost simultaneously the back would step out just a tad and the whole car stayed perfectly stable. You could feel the inside front just digging in every little bit of wheel you put into it. My eyes opened right up...it was that much different. The only real change to the steering geometry after adding the spindles was the addition of a bunch of Ackerman. I'm not sure how much I added, heck...I set the toe alignment with a tape measure and didn't touch anything else on the control arms after the install. I know this though, I almost didn't have enough tie rod length in the adjusters after flipping the steering arms around. The ride height ended up exactly the same, travel the same, maybe a bit more camber gain at full compression, everything basically the same except the added Ackerman. We accomplished this by putting the driver side steering arm on the passenger side and visa versa, this made the steering arm curve to the outside instead of the center of the car increasing the amount the inside front tire turns in relation to the outside front tire. I autocrossed the car with the local SCCA Region for the first time last Sunday. We had a super fast course with two LARGE and fast braking zones. One had a sharp 180 degree turn at the end, the next had a hard 90 degree turn right...then the whole back stretch was a long wide spread out slalom...all perfect to test a car out on. The only knob I adjusted on all day was brake bias, way too much rear brake early, then not enough so I kept putting it back in a little at a time. What I found though is I could carry WAY more speed into just about any corner, and when I turned the wheel, it just turned and stuck. I got to where at the end of the second straight I'd brake early...then let off the brake and just carry max speed into the hard right. It stuck EVERY time and the Ackerman helped turn in tremendously. In just 4 runs, I never did find the limit in front grip...there is so much more there...it will take the driver more time to get used to all the new found grip. Results showed I finished 6 tenths off of Keith Lamming and 5 tenths off of Patrick Darling on a 45-46 second course. Not too bad at all considering they are accomplished drivers on 335s and 315s and I'm on my puny little 275s and in a heavy car with 57% of the weight on the nose. Just goes to show, a properly setup car can be fast...even without being perfectly balanced front to rear. Setting your car up to get as much grip from the inside front tire as possible is just another tool to have in your bag of tricks. |
Lance, as always, thanks for bringing your experience to us. It takes a lot of time and work to post this stuff, and it’s appreciated. Glad to see your car working so well, and your having a blast doing it!
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That is fantastic to hear Lance. Thanks for the update and sharing your experience.
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