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Got a little more time to start fitting this setup. Weird I don't think I will have to move one bar to make it work. Still a fair amount of trimming to do, but its getting closer.
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Fab54
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Slowly pecking at it, loving the, torque arm / decoupled 3 link combo in this car. You know I'm going to try them both. I will post driving impressions of both when it's done.
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The designing and work your putting into this is amazing. Very Nice.
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Housing brackets semi-fitted, wanted to have at least one of the brackets land on an axle tube. The housing is cast steel and is weldable, but makes me feel better with one on the tube. Still have alot of gussets to make up for the brackets, but its still cleaner then I thought it would be.
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Their obviously aren't near enough bars in this car, so I figured it needed at least a few more. Boom!!
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Rear mounts are pretty much made, Just got the front numbers this weekend. So outcome the sawzall and plasma cutter. I see a lot of time wasted with me in a chair trying to figure a cool way to make these LCA mounts.
https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...6_182754-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...6_185213-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...7_102708-L.jpg |
Hey Ron
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Why'd the thought cross my mind that someone always wanted a Jungle Gym when they were a kid and never got one? :sieg:
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Have to move the LCA mounts up about an inch, so I made mounts that would not only support the engine, but also retain the lower control arms. I'll hopefully get the brackets finished tomorrow.
As far as the Jungle Gym goes, I have to agree, I fear I will weld myself into a cage. LOL https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...7_163447-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...7_174738-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...7_174718-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...7_175022-L.jpg |
Looking good..........keep a tether attached to your plasma cutter within reach. :thumbsup:
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Got the rear LCA mount made, pretty happy with it, having a little trouble figuring a sexy way to do the front mounts. My creativity is going to have to be coaxed along with cheap beer, a chair and some classic rock. Figure I will stare at it for an hour or so, and hope something pops into my head.
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That's how some of my best ideas were created. :cheers: |
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That just means he comes up with more expensive ideas. When you swill the cheap stuff like me, everything revolves around duct tape.
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Finishing up the rear mounts, Dailey dry sump allows me to run a tie bar across the two mounts, made it removable just in case I don't always have that engine. The bad part about the Dailey system is the oil pump hit the engine mount badly, so I had to cut it off of the frame. Next on the list is building a new passenger side mount, and engine bracket. I have a game plan for the fronts, we will see if it has the cool factor or not.
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Looking good Ron. How long before a burnout video? Really looking forward to seeing it all together, as I'm sure you are too. Keep at in! |
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:cheers: |
Motor set back in with dry sump pan and pump. Absolutely no room for a motor mount on the passenger side. I want it to be easy to get the motor in and out, Greg suggested a motor plate, but I feel like I'm to far along. I got an idea but we'll see how it works out. The adapter I made to fit the mismatched pan and pump worked out pretty good.
https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...5_180635-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...5_180831-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...2_103446-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...2_103431-L.jpg |
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Cool car, definitely has a different look then mine. Hips are in!!
Did figure a way to sneak a motor mount between the headers and dry sump pump. Did it opposite the drivers side, put bushing on motor bracket rather then frame. Hangs way below dry sump pan, so bolts are easy to get out. https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...6_204218-L.jpg |
Another couple brackets made, only 100 more to go. Proud of the center bracket that doubles as a control arm and a motor mount bracket. Now I get to start on the front of the control arms, yippee. Thanks, Ron Sutton LOL
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Are you building new Sutton style "Long" control arms or more of a standard A-arm ?
I've been looking at those Ron Sutton control arms and cannot believe its a good design to have the LBJ hanging out there unsupport/triangulated, but he obviously knows what he's doing. |
I retained the C6 stuff, just has his crazy Mo Jo on it. Saw that setup also, a lot of circle track stuff uses a similar arrangement. It obviously works, I think guys like us just overbuild everything. Sometimes less is more. LOL
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Ron is not changing the control arms on his AMX creation. He is just moving the existing arms to locations to achieve optimum geometry. In his case, as a very talented fabricator, he made cool new mounts. You are correct in being concerned about the Lower Ball Joint being un-supported. I have seen a lot of LCA designs that looked like they would fail ... and did. The simplest way to make them strong is to triangulate them at the LBJ with both tubes of the LCA. But that doesn't allow us to push the hub/spindle combo deep into the wheel for low to zero scrub radius. In designing LCA's & suspensions with low or zero scrub radius ... we need to make the front part of the LCA go deep into the wheel. And the tube or strut rod that attaches to the front LCA & triangulates it ... needs to support the LCA out as close to the LBJ as possible ... while still providing high clearance for the wheel to turn. It's a challenge. The solution is make everything stronger 3 ways with higher grade material, thicker material & optimized design. Where a lot of LCAs are made of 1"-1-1/8" x .095" DOM ... and some .125" DOM ... to make our Track-Star GT LCAs strong enough, we had to increase the diameter to 1.250" ... up the material to 4130 Chromoly ... and use .125" wall thickness in the main tube of the LCA & the Strut rod. The LCA itself still needed more strength, so we increased its strength massively with a triangulated brace support the full length of the LCA ... made from 1" x 2" x .125" wall steel tubing. All TIG welded of course. Lastly ... the strut rod connection needs to go out as close to the LBJ as possible. I designed a clevis mount out of .156" steel that attaches the strut rod closer inward for tire clearance, but extends the support to within 4" of the LBJ. None of this would work if we used the typical 1"-1-1/8" x .095" DOM tubing & didn't add the long 1" x 2" support. :cheers: |
With the headers back in, it almost looks factory. Only cooler. LOL
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Thanks for the info Mr. Sutton.
I still have a few more questions about this design but I don't want to muddy up Mr. Schwarz's thread. Is there another active Sutton thread we could take this to or PM ? I am thinking of engaging your services but I want to make sure I can accomodate certain things before I make that effort. Looks like fun stuff you're doing here Mr. Schwarz. Its never fun working around the dry sump pump. LIke you I have resisted using motor plates in my case for for NVH reasons. But I'm only using a 3 stage pump which helps, but I"m envious of that Daily setup, as you don't have hoses snaking everywhere around the pump. |
Yeah I thought I made a score when I picked up the pan for $400 and then found a brand new pump for $600. I was so excited until I noticed the one wouldn't bolt to the other. Called Dailey, they said they weren't compatible, the pan was off a Daytona Prototype, used a small pump. The pump was Nascar stuff, which used a big pump. It was physically to large, and would hit the block . He suggested I ditch them, and buy a new system.
You know I couldn't do that. Luckily my buddy Scott is a pretty good machinist, and a big car guy. So I built an adapter, the bad part was, it had to be shaped like a wedge so the big pump would be canted away from the block. Pump had round ports, pan had square. Bill Dailey said it couldn't be done, "challenge excepted". It was a PITA. What Bill probably meant was, no one in their right mind would go through that much trouble, just buy a new system. It would have broke my heart for those two phenomenal parts to be setting on a shelf, collecting dust. At least this way they get used, and I have a Dailey system with a new pump for about a grand. https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...1_142936-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...1_143007-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...2_103431-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...2_103438-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...2_103446-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...7_191738-L.jpg |
Something ridiculously awesome always pops up in threads where the Rons are involved. We have a great engineering equation here:
(I have these really cool parts.) + (I want them to go together.) - (You can't do that!) = Watch this! Just for this, I will do my best to not ask Ron Sutton any (extremely) basic (stupid) questions at the Thunderhill USCA thing . . . maybe. Win! |
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And great tech by Sutton as usual. He never disappoints. Schwarz is most definitely FTW. |
The Ron's, that makes me laugh. The RS squared build, as Payton likes to call it. Have enjoyed working with RS, kind of nice to feel confident that the information given is correct, and I can go in guns blazing, with no fear of a cluster in my future. at least not where his design work is concerned.
Did get the front side of the control arm semi-figured out, built a crossmember out of 2x2, welded in sleeves, then washers, holesawed the crap out of it, then installed. Not only did it fit, but it was 0.0 with my digital level. Even a blind squirrel..... https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...9_162640-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...9_174745-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...9_175542-L.jpg https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...9_180125-L.jpg |
Looking great Ron !
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Stellar Ron, you too Ron. :captain1:
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..... and he keeps plugging away!!
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Hey Guys,
Over on Pro-Touring.com some guys on Ron Schwarz' thread were questioning running a Decoupled 3-Link on the street, so I shared an in-depth explanation of the Decoupled 3-Link traits. I thought I post the same tech here ... in case anyone reading along had similar questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey Everyone ... those of you posting & those of you reading along ... I figured I'd jump on here real quick and clear up some things on the Decoupled 3-Link. I describe them as the most tunable, highest grip rear suspension linkage available for solid axle race cars. Race cars. :) I'll get the street usage thing out of the way first, then discuss why Decoupled 3-Links work so well. I don't think of a Decoupled 3-Link as a street car suspension. It can be driven on the street ... just like race cars are driven on the street. But if someone was building a "driver" or what I think of a typical "Pro Touring" car they plan to drive primarily on the street ... and rarely or occasionally run autocross or track days ... I would not suggest a decoupled 3-link. The issue would be poor ride quality. On smooth roads, the ride quality will be fine. On typical bumpy roads the ride would be noticeably harsher. Hitting big potholes ... or tall speed bumps at speed ... would be the worst ... because the suspension can not travel straight up or down very far .. with low/no throttle. It doesn't go into a bind per se. It's just the spring rate from the bushings (2 red ones in this photo) in the Decel system goes up exponentially when the both tires push straight up equally when off throttle. On throttle ... it can move up & down freely ... because the Accel bushings (blue in this photo) are compressed ... and the Decel bushings (red) are not loaded at all. What the decoupled system allows ... is for the rear end to articulate plenty within the chassis. So if a car with a Decoupled 3-Link drives on a normal street with occasional bumps ... each side can absorb the bumps it hits pretty much like any other suspension. If the bump is huge ... and hit at speed ... the compression amount would be great enough to get into the higher spring rate in the Accel/Decel system. So it would be more harsh than a other rear suspension styles. To summarize ... a Decoupled 3-Link rides fine on smooth roads, feels rougher on rough roads & would be very harsh driven over large potholes or speed bumps at speed. So again, I would NOT recommend a Decoupled 3-Link for anyone building a "driver" or typical "Pro Touring" car they plan to drive primarily on the street. But Ron Schwarz is not building a cruiser. Neither are all my other clients that have chosen to go the Decoupled 3-Link route. I would call them "Very Mean Street Legal" cars or "Race Cars with License Plates." I suspect they WILL drive them on the street ... to the track or event they're going to. But each learned about the possible harshness ... as well as the advantages of the Decoupled 3-Link ... before choosing them. Now if they want to drive them on the street & be comfortable ... the car can quickly be converted away from Decoupled 3-Links. With 3-bolts, they can replace the the Accel/Decel system with a regular top link. Then it will ride like any 3-link, 4-link, torque-arm car. In Ron Schwarz' case, he is also keeping the Torque Arm mounts, so he can compare them. I can't wait for that. :) The reasons to go to a Decoupled 3-Link in these cars ... as the PT genre evolves more & more toward race car technology ... is the superior track performance. If a person can tolerate the car riding rougher to be bad ass on track ... it is worthy of considering. or if they're ok making the switch I mentioned ... with 3-bolts make it a normal 3-link ... and viola ... normal street ride. Before I go into the advantages of the Decoupled 3-Link ... it's important to understand what parts of the rear suspension affects the handling in the different parts of the corner. Let's break driving the corner down into the 3 parts: 1. Corner entry ... where the driver is braking, then turning into the corner (and continuing to brake). 2. The "Roll Through Zone" where the driver steps off the brakes & lets the car "roll" through the corner ... before picking the throttle up. 3. Corner exit ... where the driver picks up the throttle & starts unwinding the steering wheel coming out of the corner. * Some people ... even relatively experienced PT drivers ... don't recognize this "Roll Through Zone" concept because when they step off the brakes in their car, the front end shoots up (lifts) ... instantly causing the car to push. So they don't allow a "Roll Through Zone." They stay on the brakes all the way to the point they need to pick up the throttle. This is not ideal, as using the brakes to keep the front end down scrubs off way more speed. In professional racing, we use special shock pistons, bleeds & valving to keep the front end down ... when the driver lifts off the brake ... so the car can roll and keep higher cornering speed ... versus continued deceleration from constant braking. Ok. Time to shine some light on the rear suspension functionality. The choice of rear suspension type ... 3-Link, 4-Link, Torque Arm, Truck Arm, 19-Link, etc ... has NO effect on the car's handling in the Roll Through Zone. I know. What ??? And ... the anti-squat percentage, instant center location, length of arm, etc, etc ... have NO effect on the car's handling in the Roll Through Zone. The suspension linkage acts as a mechanical lever when torque is applied. There is no torque being applied to the rear end (or rear suspension) in the Roll Through Zone. No brake torque & no engine torque. So what affects the car's rear grip in the Roll Through Zone? A lot. Tire width Tire Contact Patch Tire Camber Tire compound (softness/bite) Spring Rate Sway Bar Rate Weight Mass (rear specifically) CG Roll Center Track Width Shock Valving ... just not the suspension linkage. I hear someone asking ... as happens at the workshops ... "So Ron, what does the rear suspension linkage ... and it's settings like anti-squat percentage, instant center location, length of arm, etc, ... affect?" Everything to do with corner entry ... before the Roll Through Zone ... and everything to do with corner exit ... after the Roll Through Zone. So when we're choosing a rear suspension linkage ... and setting it up ... our focus needs to be on getting into the corner ... and out of the corner ... the quickest way possible. With a torque arm, regular 3-Link, 4-Link, truck arm, etc ... the instant center location defines the swing arm length & anti-squat percentage of the rear suspension. * If we move the instant center location closer or up ... we are increasing the loading on the tires for increased corner exit grip ... but decreasing the loading on the rear tires for decreased corner entry grip. * If we move the instant center location forward and/or down ... we are decreasing the loading on the tires for decreased corner exit grip ... but increasing the loading on the rear tires for increased corner entry grip. * It is ALWAYS a compromise. So knowledgeable tuners/builders choose their rear suspension weapon & set it up appropriately to have the best compromise they think will produce the quickest laps ... or in some cases ... will provide the feel the driver wants. (Some drivers are ok with a loose car on exit but not entry & vice versa.) This is where the Decoupled 3-Link can out perform every other solid axle rear suspension. There doesn't have to be a compromise with a Decoupled 3-Link. The Decel link can be set where the car has amazing corner entry grip to drive in deep ... see Elvis ... and then brake safely with full grip. The Accel link can be set where the car has amazing corner exit grip ... to roll the throttle on quicker & harder ... and giddy up out of the corner better than any other set-up. The Decoupled 3-Link is so good many racing sanctioning bodies outlawed them back in the 90's. But we don't have to follow those rules in the PT, Optima, Good Guys, track Car world. :) [ATTACH=CONFIG]124130[/ATTACH] Some Racing Sanctioning bodies still allow Decoupled 3-Links ... as long as there is no damper as part of the design. With good reason. When we add a damper (shock) with the right valving & response rate ... the grip is amazing. It calms the car down when accelerating full throttle out of the corner & smooths out the gear shifts. It makes a high powered race car ... easier to drive fast. And ... if we utilize a double adjustable shock ... and make the shock cable adjustable from the driver cockpit ... the driver can tune the rear suspension to any track conditions in an instant. Need more rear grip on exit? Turn the Accel knob one way. Too much rear grip on exit (pushing)? Turn the knob the other way. Need more rear grip on corner entry under hard braking? Turn the Decel knob one way. Too much rear grip on corner entry ? Turn the knob the other way. No climbing under the car to tune it. Grab a handful of rear grip whenever you need it. Give some back if you got greedy. :cheers: |
Great stuff Ron. Got the crossmember finished and welded in today. Still need to cut off the old stuff, and double shear the control arm. I was using the old stuff as a point of reference, or it would have been gone already.
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Torquedork just posted this over on PT. I am kind of digging the Mark Donahue spoiler, what do you think?
https://57hemicuda.smugmug.com/Cars/...0spoiler-L.jpg |
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Yeah Ron. Spoiler examples. The Orange 1970 version will fit your car.
http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/...psccc05c10.jpg Managed to add it to this shot I tweaked with the tweaked quarters. http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/...psbgx8dg63.jpg |
I'm liking this build. Good stuff
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