FACT !! Preston



To think what I've spent on "hot rods" -- now versus what I used to spend 25 years ago is mind boggling! But a hot rod used to be a SBC -- some wide tires - some Weld Wheels <see what I did there?> "decent" paint - which could have been a single stage urethane or enamel..... upholstery from the local shop.... a four speed tranny and a rear end from the junkyard. The fact that you could "box" a frame in your garage - made you a "real hot rod builder".... let alone chop a grill.... or cut in some patch panels.


I agree with you -- it's gone so far over the top that it's almost taken the fun out of it. A home builder struggles to be "proud" of what he's built... We no longer can just MIG weld something - we all have to have TIG machines now.... and the gaps and bodypanels have to be Rolls Royce quality... and as you pointed out -- the have to have trick EVERYTHING from the ground up.

I'm not complaining --- it is what the hobby is.... we all want to improve and get better - and guys like Mark Stielow continue to raise the bar... and we eagerly follow (with our tongues hanging out!).

If you'd have told me 20 years ago that guys were going to be doing long distance tours in 950 hp cars with the AC on with 40,000 dollar paint jobs - I'd have thought you'd gone mad! LOL


There's SO MANY GREAT PRO SHOPS...... it's sad when they start out and then get fat and sassy. Why can't they just can't put their noses down - put their pedal to the metal - and crank out the work... Maybe they're good builders and just not good business people... the skills to build do not automatically transfer to management. Capital allocation.... hiring (or firing) skills... time management.... parts sourcing skills.... planning... managing thru lean months or years...

Greg, thanks again for sharing your experiences and being transparent about them. I (and countless others) have learned so much from you through your posts and commentary. You're like a hot rod dad to many of us with your wisdom and humor.

Being a little guy who still does all his own work, I feel what you are saying. I have heard countless horror stories about cars going to a shop to die and rack up an incredible bill in the process. My cars are still built the old way with junkyard parts, ingenuity and my own hard labour. They are also 100% reliable and I know exactly what parts were used so I know what worked and how to fix them. The only thing I farm out are items I don't have the tools to achieve (machine work and interior) From what I read even though we live in the same city and have never met, I believe SSLance is the same way. I would love to have the money to pay someone, but honestly even if I did I would rather get my hands dirty and do it myself. All more money would do in my case is buy more tools, a larger space to use them plus additional cars and parts. The end result of driving my creation and meeting new friends is simply the icing on the cake.

Thanks for the kind words....


I ALWAYS built and repaired my own stuff - or my friends stuff.... until I became busy doing other fun things. These days we're traveling WAY more than we used to.... and just doing other things - more golf - etc. The first "pro" (I loathe using the word in connection with this shop) build I did was the Frisbee '32 - and that was only because it's purchase - and subsequent re-build was completely unplanned. I think I was building my brother in laws car at the time. We all know what a disappointing experience that was.

Funny --- it wasn't the quality of the bodywork - paint - chrome - ideas - execution.... it was the things that make a car a car. Leaks everywhere - the wiring - the alignment etc. THE DETAILS that keep a car running and make it reliable. Looking at the car -- it was awesome. Right up until you tried to drive it. EPIC FAIL.

The part I always prided myself on -- was that my **** ran - ran well - didn't fail - and was used and abused on a regular basis. I go to shows - or have friends - that put up with having to crank and crank to get started - or the slow errrump errrump of a poorly done starter.... or header leaks... or steering wheel shimmy. THEY LIVE WITH IT. ME? NEVER. Fix that stuff!! Have some pride for god's sake! If you make a plumbing line and it leaks - DO IT OVER - it's a hobby! Learn as you go - you'll make mistakes. So what. Examine the part - figure out where you went wrong and try to do it better on the next one.... but don't live with it. What do you learn from that? Practicing making bad parts..... LOL

For a "pro" shop to put out work that has these items - or ANY ITEMS - that don't perform... They don't deserve to be in business. The "cheaters" in the world - doing shoddy work - lining their pockets... they need to be called out. Grow a pair - if you got screwed - stand up and say so. I'm not afraid to go to a show and see them face to face -- they know what they did - I told them to their face....They ought to man up and take ownership. They don't - people like that never think it's them - they always deflect blame.

There were issues with the Brizio '33.... blowing oil out (not enough breather capacity).... A/C condensation line didn't work so water dripped inside (fixed) - Overheated - due to lack of tank on the radiator (so it was "open to atmosphere"). The Vega steering box (smoothed and painted) sucked - a new one was installed and was perfect. ALL FIXED WITHOUT A SINGLE QUESTION OR BILL.... and these fixes didn't take months -- they were fixed in DAYS. That is how to do business!

LOL -- if only things always went as planned.....


You need to get on the list of GoodGuy HOF tour and go with us.... that way Charley has someone else to beat on besides me.

just getting caught up on this, WOW, keep fighting the good fight..

LOL..... Yeah.... I've never been one to hold back!

I'm the guy paying for the job.... if I'm not happy with what's going on -- I have ZERO problem firing people. Charley's phone call was perfect timing.

You don't say....
Xoxo

So what you are saying is, building these things is a pain in the ass and if you want it done right, you got to do it yourself?:action-smiley-027:

Same boat
 

I feel your pain. It only took my 'High End' hot rod shop to repaint my car 3 years!!! This is one of those 'TV' shops with an owner that has 25+ years of experience in building hot rods. All talk, when it is on their dime to fix something it is never going to happen. Every time I asked the owner when it was going to get painted, it was 'Oh your the next one in the booth'. Ya right!!! Guess I learned my lesson.

Greg did the right thing and got out of that mess, hope the new shop works out. Also, I want to thank Greg for his insight and commentary on this board, its what makes me come back every day to see how the place is holding up.

No it's not a pain in the ass -- it's fun... it's a hobby.... and some shops can build them right - get 'em done on time - and on budget.... MANY can't.

Many times that's the owner's fault - they don't pay - they're "between money" - the owner can't make up their minds - they change direction 10 times....

For me - there's no waiting on money - I know what I want before the job gets started - I don't procrastinate..... sometimes it's the shop, and not the customer - sometimes it's the other way around.






Thanks!!!


My '33 Ford was painted in about a month.... which included gaping - bodywork/skim etc - paint - and cut and buffed. Vintage Color Studio (Darryl Hollenbeck's shop - who is Roy Brizio's Brother in Law). Mind you -- that paint and bodywork was about 40 grand.... Pure perfection by the way.... and will still be perfect 20 years from now.

http://vintagecolorstudio.com/


I think it took Sid Shavers about 2 weeks to knock the interior out of the park....

These guys know how to make money - and making money is NOT turning your shop in to a storage facility.

The one thing I hate about these "lazy shops" is when you go to pick up your car, the owner starts talking about how much you owe him on your bill, when in all actuality he never did much of any work on the car to begin with which is the reason you're pulling your car from his shop. Then, he tries to back you in a corner by making you feel that if you don't square up with him on the so-called bill or money that he feels you owe him, you're not getting your car.

Oh you should have heard the whining.... $7,700 to get it out of jail. I can assure you no work was done to earn that..... I was happy to write the check - load the truck up and split. LOL.

"I have to feed my family"..... Hey! Apparently I've been feeding them for a few years now.... Maybe a little less eating and a lot more work??? LOL

That has to be the worst of it, as long as they have your vehicle hostage, there is no negotiating. They are mad because the golden goose is leaving and you are mad about being robbed. I've read a dozen of these since joining Lat-G and none have turned out well....

GW,
I'm sure you still have the basic plan you always had, a solid driver with some simple creature comforts. Any new build thoughts since it changed hands?
Anyone doing a render for you? (I love seeing renders, my kind of wall art)


Jeff-

Jeff --- the end -- only matters to me about how they handle THEMSELVES --- I don't care about the money part (lucky me)... to me - it's all the attitude. Eric was very friendly - was professional - whined some - but also understood the reasons for me pulling it.... a lack of progress.... But the attitude did go south - as expected - and not unreasonable.... BUT <always the big butt> -- I'm not the only guy to pull out of there as of late.... and the whining about having to get me some roller wheels/tires was unlike anything I've ever witnessed... on that account alone I wouldn't recommend the shop. Dude.... it's just business - end it well and live to fight another day... end it poorly and you just get bagged on.





Update ---- No changes. Still going to be a tan/grey color - artillery wheels - simple street rod with some rake... to the unknowing - it'll be "a nice old pickup" - to the guy that drops a knee and looks underneath - he'll go - "oh hell yeah".... The underhood will be a combo of gloss and satin.... and just about ZERO billet or chrome anything. We'll do more with "color" and texture.

A glimpse of the interior direction ---- gauges just arrived:







http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...up/image1.jpeg

Greg, I love the gauges. Youv'e already got over a mile on your truck, and it's not even finished yet. :welcome3:
Glad to hear everything is well. Throw some progress pics up, when you get some from the shop.

I'm in Austin now -- will be at the shop Friday....


I don't expect "progress" at this point - they will have had to disassemble and inspect - and check everything they're going to have to do to move forward from here. They already found areas in the cab that need to be patched....

We'll have a great discussion about overall "direction". So far - I've loved the phone calls I've gotten with ideas from Mike Kaiser (the shop foreman). He seems to grasp exactly what I want.

Under the hood still going to be bone stock LS crate just like its shipped? ... or maybe just maybe you'll let them do a little de-clutter with some period disguise... :beathorse

Oh yeah --- I think LS motors are FUGLY to begin with --- so we'll manage to give it a little pizzaz.... And I don't like seeing wiring etc - so it'll get all the usual hot roddy stuff done like that.

I like the gauges, they'll fit right in.

How's this for a guy hiding the fact he has an LS motor in his 59 Belair 2 door wagon

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...pslf6wgh7i.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...psusa4qds7.jpg

Yep, all shops not equal.

:P

https://s20.postimg.org/8h2dd1b19/IMG_4574.jpg

It occurred to me, there is a common denominator....

Different top shops, different builds, same GW.....:mock:







:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

you know you can bolt SBF heads on an LS right !!!

or at the very least make some adapters and put FORD valve covers on it !!
:thumbsup:

Went out to Andice today to work with Mike and Harold on the '40..... I was pleasantly surprised to see they'd actually been working on it!!

There were very few problems --

#1 - Is the bed on the truck wasn't square or level. When you viewed the truck from the side - the gap between the cab and front of the bed was a "keystone" or "taper". Now -- it's completely able to be shimmed with some blocks to make it fit perfectly - and I'm not saying that Pinkee's was anywhere near getting to this work area..... so don't get it wrong please. To me - it was more the fact that they (CHRA) had noticed it - checked in to what it took to make it right - and had already fixed it.

#2 - The gas cap in the fender -- a Steve Moal built cap -- frenched in to the driver rear fender. It's an "O ringed" cap.... but CHRA had gone one better and used a new car style positive twist and sealed cap INSIDE of the Moal cap - and had already C notched the chassis and run the stainless tubing for the connection....

#3 - The area under the bed - and the gap between it and the chassis.... normally filled with just a plain piece of metal. They had already mocked up, for my viewing pleasure, two different styles of louvers for this area - giving the truck a definite hot rod touch! The one they - and Gwen and I loved - was the use of a "curved" louver - think if you sliced a side of a football off - rather than just the standard straight louver. The truck is all curves - and the use of the curved version was perfect. CHECK!

#4 - The intake was already done!


#5 - The steering column was relocated slightly - so they could hook up the transmission linkage and steering knuckles and shaft. This area is a super tight fit at the driver side valve cover. As in -- Oh my!

We're going to use some of the curved louvers in the inner fender well area (custom built - very nicely by Pinkee's) to allow for some air flow.... and I'm "thinking" (now that I've seen this bitchin' louver) of throwing a few in the hood as well.... we'll mess with placement and pattern a bit to attempt to get it right - or eliminate them if we can't.


Discussion turned to some details -- bumpers or nerf bars in front - I'm opting for the nerf bar style. With the right rake - and some little hot rod touches -- it lends itself to that styling que..... They'll keep the front end from being hung out there with the traditional bumper (although a '41 bumper is better than the '40... they still have to be out front a ways). The rear has to follow the front - so a custom style rear bumper will be built.

We talked stereo - speakers - sub - amps etc -- door treatment (interior) and latches. Bear claws?- stock? - or their suggestion of a modern latch that Mike liked because of how it worked. I'll go with their modern latch suggestion. Door handles to operate it are TBD. Mirror styles etc TBD.

I hated the A/C in the '33 --- it was junk and could barely keep the tiny little space tolerable. Junk is being nice.... and there were a couple of factors that contributed to it's poor performance -- #1 being the ridiculous little hot roddy outlets. Those POS couldn't flow enough air to keep a flea cage cool.... and I've never liked the "one style doesn't fit anything" Vintage Air controls.... Well -- personally -- I love a shop that has the correct answers for solutions... and they showed me a couple of options that were spot on! BINGO! Problems solved. Gotta love it!

Then -- the seat? Gwen and I both sat on a plastic milk crate (my name for them). The seat in a stock 40 - had a "seat riser" platform... which is my preference - and we'll build in some storage drawer access in front. A quick access spot for little things like glasses - and gum - and just "stuff"... it will also be the right space to hide stereo amps etc. In 1940 - you had the option(?) of the gas tank under the seat or under the bed.... I ASSume the riser was the place where the gas tank went. We'll use this space for some storage. DONE.

So basically they're now in the process of getting all the "mechanical" stuff hooked up - or built and hooked up. That way there's no "oops" where's that going to go? Then they can go back and address the details. The hood etc fit really well -- amazingly well - kudos to Pinkee's for getting it right. The hood latch set up they built falls right together with a nice click.

So funny thing about the actual SEAT -- what style etc. I said my buddy Dan Peterson had the perfect seat in his '40 PU that I liked and wanted to use. It's a square back - with a fold down armrest - has a "bucket" feel to the seating area - and the seat cushion can flip forward for under seat access. A quick iPad pic and Gwen et al agreed. Only one problem.... I don't know how to get hold of Dan to find out what seat he used. So once back at the hotel - I started networking. A buddy owns Warehouse West - a perfomance parts wholesale distribution / retail operation - a call to the owner, Brad - he knew Dan and figured he knew a couple people that should have contact info.... an hour later - I've got it! Thank you Brad - you were always a good man!

A call to Dan - and it's a Glide Engineering Inc seat (they have several styles to choose from) and lo-n-behold they also make a steel seat riser! That will save me money when I don't have to make one from scratch! So I hang up after a nice conversation with Dan - and go to Glides website.... What's on the front page (home page)??????? A picture of the '33 !! Click on it -- and an even larger picture of it!! LOL WTF are the odds of that??? It's fate..... LOL


http://www.glideengineering.com/



Here's the seat in Dan's - at the time, unfinished project... and now he tells me he has 200 miles on his finished project! Good for him!! He's built some seriously nice hot rods in his day! Apparently he's still got it!! Good for you Dan!






http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...p/IMG_0133.jpg

That seat looks like it would be comfortable on along ride. Glad the stress is diminishing and it's feeling fun again Greg.

I put a Glide seat in my 47 Ford coupe. Loved it, really comfortable and bolted right to the stock floor mounts.

Great to hear Greg! :)

Progress and they've had it less than a month! Apparently this time you found a great shop.

I'm glad you changed shops. Apparently the guys in Andice don't like the idea of paid storage and would actually prefer to turn out completed vehicles. :idea:

This is very helpful GW. Could you elaborate on what system you decided to go with?

They're Vintage Air -- but the one in the '33 didn't ever blow very cold -- and the outlets were stupidly small -- and the air from that unit was always full of moisture. Brizio had that unit in and out of the car at least 3 times.... it just sucked.


The unit in the '40 is also Vintage Air -- And CHRA said that some units seem to work great and some just don't. BUT -- they had a killer hide-away outlet that flowed a lot of air -- so we'll try that.... and they'll hide the control unit and an angle under the dash. As we discussed - in those units - you really only ever run then fan speed knob. So once you know where that is - you're good to go.

I think the condenser in the '33 was just too small to gte the hear out of the leaking convertible top. A black top - a dark blue car.... takes some cooling power. Add some humidity -- and you're out of luck. The top on the '33 never did seal well. The VA unit in my '56 Nomad would freeze you out... and that was a lot of volume to cool. In the '33 it always felt like the unit was working really hard but not getting the result. I always wondered if there wasn't a hose kinked up under the dash? Or the unit was just flat out defective.

Hey Greg, when I was doing my '37 Plymouth truck, I used this Desoto control head that I modified to work with the modern controls. Looks cool, is designed to bolt under the dash, and keeps the period look.

Here's a pic of the mock up one I picked up to see if it would work:

http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/...psf7o1ilji.jpg
http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/...psfj98uz2e.jpg

Great to hear. Thankful your are getting good progress. We use vintage air in everything with great success. We have managed to get a Gen IV in about everything and always end up with 34 degree vent temp. The things a lot of people not attack is, keeping heat out. Making sure that the only way the air gets through the condenser is to block all other outlets and lastly proper fan shroud. Being in Florida and building daily drivers is our forte. Proper firewall insulation, door gaskets and window fitment and gaskets, all while maintaining a look of yesteryear is a big job but also pays off in big dividends. Also we use a new window tint that is clear, but removes a ton of heat in the vehicle.

Greg, I hope this progress continues and I am sure they know that they are under the spot light, which doesn't hurt either. I have been impressed with their facility from day one, not sure why Levi left there, but that happens.

Have a great Fathers Day.

That's bad ass Craig!!! I did that once to a 56 Chevy --- I had found a brand new controller that was also an A/C car.... it was a big job to convert - and then a few years later they came out with all the electronic stuff and micro switches.... Was way cool to use the factory A/C and Heat control.

You're spot on! Controlling the heat getting in is 90% of the battle. In a drop top - it gets even harder! The top on the '33 looked perfect -- but you could put your hand around certain areas and you could feel the heat pouring in. They (Brizio) even brought the factory boys in and had 'em adjust it. Then Sid Shavers designed and had built - a better latch system and that really helped. Sometimes it's also a "sucking" rather than pressure.... It was very hard to get the seal just right across the back (bottom of top) of the car..... if the material tightened up (to make the top look perfect) -- it would pull that seal "up" just enough that it would create a low pressure area and draw the air out.

All of this will be MUCH easier to deal with in the '40 --- everything is new - all the sheet metal is new - and it will be insulated like crazy. Then it will just be door seals.

Funny how small business works.....


I needed a seat for the truck - a buddy building one said he used a Glide Engineering seat - which I liked the looks of his.... so off to the 'net to find it. A quick search brought up a website - http://www.waltonfabrication.com/ - but NOT Glide Engineering.... No matter - I called the firm to make an inquiry. Guy (Todd) on the phone is super helpful - doesn't know about all the '40 seats offered - but says -- "I know they (Glide) are setting up at a show today and I'm going (The LA Roadster Show) tomorrow (Saturday) and will go talk to them - and will call you back Monday".

Usually this is a "never happens".....


Monday morning Todd calls --- has all the information I need to make a decision - offers a discount.... has good insight about the product (he just didn't know details on the 40 seat but knows seats in general). BAM! Ordered the frame - the seat riser - the slide.... $1500 sale.

Here's the way I work --- I didn't even shop any other sites -- I waited for him to do what he said he'd do (giving him the full length of rope). He gets the business. As simple as that.

Now --- I did go to Glides website (the right one!) and what pops up on their home page???? Our Brizio built '33 Ford. LOL === What's the odds of that??

I mentioned this in another post... but thought I'd mention it again here in case you missed it. LOL

Not to derail on you GW, but I had a similar experience shopping for a one-off crazy driveshaft. One place never answered, another place took info but never called back, the third place (should have been the first) said they wern't sure but would I please call back and talk to the owner. I took a gamble and rang him the next day... Denny at Denny's Driveshaft. Took an immediate and genuine interest in what I was doing, walked me through every detail, helped me get exactly what I needed. He seriously discounted what turned out to be a specialized part he hadn't sold to anyone before and I was his "test pilot"... the best part? He sent exactly what he said he would, when he said he would.
Amazing.



Jeff-

about the seat sale...

I LOVE that kind of service!

Me too Joe!!!


From now on -- Walton Fabrication gets my recommendation to anyone looking for a hot rod seat(s).

It's how small business BUILD their business up! One satisfied customer at a time.... How you tear them down.... one dissatisfied customer at a time. I'm the kind of guy that tells everybody I know Good or Bad. I know A LOT of car people.

When I was the Brown Jordan Rep (Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Hawaii, B.C.) - I used to do sales training.... and I used to try to get my customers (retailers) to understand one important part of making a sale (there's A LOT MORE to making a sale and it has nothing to do with "salesmanship" - I HATE salesmen).... is that when THEY made the sale.... that customer then has brand new patio furniture on their deck.... their friends can't help but notice -- and they can recommend "your store" -- or, when you lose the sale -- they recommend the other guys store. Each sale has the potential to grow logarithmically.


To make a "sale" --- all the sales staff has to do is to remove the objections to making a purchase by the customer. Such as - can you get the product timely - can you help with technical questions and how willing are you to do that (attitude) - is the price competitive - did you, or can you recommend other solutions (without trying to steer!) - did you pick up the phone right then and get an answer to a question you were unsure about. Want to KEEP a customer recommending your place? When the shizzle fizzled -- did you respond immediately to resolve the issue without hassle for the customer (you must make the bad stuff as easy as it was for the consumer as you did on the sale side of the transaction). The very first question that should be asked is --- How would you like me to handle this? Do you want me to get you a new (whatever) - Do you want yours fixed (immediately) - DIFFUSE the issue by simply showing 100% willingness to make it right - whatever that means for THEM, not you! That's how you get repeat business, and in fact, you're likely to get an even stronger recommendation from a satisfied customer based on how you handled the mess -- not the initial sale.




:G-Dub:

Wanna race? I mean race to see who drives first? Your truck or the Duck?

I'll take that bet... you're gonna regret... <The Devil came down from Georgia>


I just got my first billing from the new shop - Custom Hot Rods of Andice - and they've done an amazing amount of work already. As in -- more in a couple weeks than had been done in the last 6 months (mostly my fault).

Really -- the sheetmetal was in great shape when I picked it up. What needed to be done was the small connections of things - some mounting (ECU and fuse box etc).... and exhaust... the fuel tank to the filler mounted in the fender... headlights (Harley style) - taillights - Door handles and latches (non-stock) - mirrors. Get the stance right (and drivable) - and that will be manipulation of the wheel opening in front.... Then blow it apart and final finishing / reassembly. My guess is -- Christmas of 2017

Sounds good. Can't wait to see the finished product! My goal is January so you'll probably win :trophy-1302:

I wanted it done for the GoodGuys Hall of Fame Tour in September and they "thought about it"..... so it's really further along than it appears. It's also a super simple (are any of them really?) build. Pretty straight forward.... and they've built more than a couple of these '40's.