Lateral-g Forums - 1967 Camaro for OUSCI

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- - 1967 Camaro for OUSCI (https://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36652)

Did anyone post the wheel specs on this thing - width and offset/backspace?
(it's magnificent by the way)

Edit: Found it!
For those of you who are interested, its:
REAR - 19x12 w/ 6.75" Backspace
FRONT - 18x10 w/ 6.25" BS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stielow (Post 423012)

I'm using a C-6 Corvette Z06 ABS module pre-2008. The trick is the factory ABS wheel speed sensors on all four corners and tricking the ABS module to think it is still in a 2007 Corvette and it still connected to all it correct sensors. If you don't get all the sensor correct it will still work but works in a default cal that has lower ABS efficiency. If you don't get the wheel speed sensors and wiring correct the ABS will fault out at very inopportune times. The wheel speed signal error is a hard fault - the system stops working. This is the problem I had 2 years ago. Not all ABS systems and control strategies are created equal. Like the old debate on EFI on if Speed Density, Alpha-N or MAF systems were better. There are different ABS control strategies. So with all that said I mean if you get a 2002 Camaro 3 channel ABS system to work it will not be as good as a C-6 Corvette system. If you just want to keep from locking a tire that is easy. If you want to optimize stopping distance on split Mu (Dry concrete and Ice) that is harder.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...l/DSC_4298.jpg

Note the new gun drilled (weight savings) Strange axles, revised axle end and new spacers. The steel and aluminum spacers were machined by my buddy Ken Tibor.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...l/DSC_3463.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...l/DSC_3877.jpg

Because the production ZR-1 SKF bearings are active wheel sensor I had SKF make me the SKF bearing with passive wheel speed sensors to work with the 2007 Delphi ABS module.

After a lot of debate with Brembo I chose to use the GTR Calipers over the GT Calipers. We had a lot of discussions like "How much HP? We’ll need to call back to Italy and get back to you" :D

So I went with Brembo's recommendation. Those brakes are not for the weak of heart or wallet. Due to my short development time line I don't have time to do a lot of experimentation with the brakes.

I have worked with the Brembo guys a bunch on other projects and I think this may be a bit over kill but they will work. I did size the system to work with the Delphi ABS system. The brakes on Red Devil worked very well and I just wanted to tweak the system a little to make it better.

With a lot of due care you can get ABS to work on an old hot rod. You just need to keep it happy with the correct sensors to make it work. I want to keep my ABS set up my competitive advantage for a while. Bosch does sell an aftermarket ABS system that is laptop programmable. So it is accessible technology to anyone with the budget or time to sort it out. I look at ABS, Stability Control and Performance Traction Management as the next thing for the aftermarket to crack into. Like EFI was 25 years ago only a few people could do it and few aftermarket company’s make systems and they were expensive. Now EFI is main stream and very easy to do. So I see chassis controls going that way in a few years.

Hey if it was easy everyone would be doing it....

If I can get the car out of paint jail I can start putting it together. (Paul and Joe are doing a great job) You can’t rush this quality of a paint job.

Mark

Hello Mark,

i really would want to chat with you about your ABS solution. We can not put the Restomods on legal road without the same system we use for the Engine here in Germany so i would really ask you for help on the ABS. We have Bosch M4 Systems, but they are NOT for legal street use. I would appreciate if you could give me a chance to talk to you!! THANK YOU!

Hey Mark,
I'd like to talk to you about the same subject, I have C5 sensors already on my front hubs and C4 sensors on both back wheels, From that point what else do I need other than the C5 module? I'm having issues locking my front right in particular. Is the C4 stuff the same tooth count/signal as the C5? My brakes all the way around are C5 as well as my master cylinder.
Can you help me? We talked some at Optima in Ky, and a couple of years ago when you brought the Red Devil to VIR for UTCC, You need to bring one back for that, I've won it twice since then!
Mills

I am so incredibly impressed about the fact that there is a system from the 80s and no one could really offer or figure out a universal kit! I am also impressed by the fact that Mark is the only one known who did that in a series and we hope and pray that he will help us out!

PLEASE MARK! SAY SOMETHING!!! :G-Dub:

Quote:

Originally Posted by monstereddie (Post 652958)

I'm going to go out over my skis here and attempt to cover for Mark.

What you're asking about -- is incredibly complicated. Even more complicated when you're putting a system like this on track. I've only ever been privy to listening to these discussions between engineers..... and there's nothing much the ordinary guy is going to understand or be able to modify etc.

If I were him - I would HAVE TO consider the legal liability of advising someone trying to build these systems. There is just so much engineering and testing involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregWeld (Post 652966)

Thank you, Greg for this post. I am an Engineer with lots of Bosch backgrounds and abilities. We do software programming for the EURO 6 ECU, development, transmission development, manufacturing of reading and flashing hardware, checksum coding and programming of all CAN BUS controlled system. I could immediately use a M4 System that is great and works better than anything else in the world, problem is, that BOSCH sells it in Germany only for race track use, not for legal roads. I asked for Mark´s help because he integrated Delphi ABS into his cars and they work fine. Our government accepts only systems that were used in Legal Cars. With his help we could make this happen and probably help others that are in the need of the same system. I am not (at the moment) familiar with Delphi, but the codes are open source and it is a lot of information out there that can make this happen. We have own 4x4 dyno, brake system manager and testing areas, ...... all here - dont worry about the liability. Mark already told me that his system works amazing!

Quote:

Originally Posted by monstereddie (Post 652976)

Well === I have no business speaking for Mark........ but it has to be said because it is complicated and can easily be made into a mess... These are public forums and we can only imagine the midnight engineering that could take place with barely enough info.

Yeah, I'm an Engineer too and speak the language, I'm just trying not to reinvent the wheel. Maybe Mark is just holding a grudge because our FSAE car beat his FSAE car 27 years ago?

In Germany we have TÜV. It is all so strict and so buerocratic. They all suck. But we have no chance. Once this is installed they take it and test it. And when they stamp it and make it legal it is legal and the liability is off our shoulders. At the same time I need to follow rules, regulations and pass their tests. And even if there is a better system that works better and is more secure, as long Not approved for street use or has been installed and used in legal cars - no chance - especially on systems that have a huge red sign that warns any idiot from the authorities that it is for race use only. Mark has a system that works with the OEM stuff. All OEM. all like this been installed into a serial car. This to be installed in our project would be the BEST!!

@beach cruiser, so you have a finished and working ABS system in your ride, too? If yes pm me. We should not destroy this amazing post here!

Monstereddie,

See my new post in the Brakes section:

https://lateral-g.net/forums/show...8&postcount=24

It may be just the right answer for you.

Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregWeld (Post 652977)

and as a result and i could be mistaken, but i think a Bosch system was incorporated into jackass 2.0?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beach Cruiser (Post 652978)

Yeah, I'm an Engineer too and speak the language, I'm just trying not to reinvent the wheel. Maybe Mark is just holding a grudge because our FSAE car beat his FSAE car 27 years ago?

Well I was going to help you but now that you said you beat me in FSAE...

The number one question I always get asked is how can I do ABS on my car?

Well the simple answer is once you have good wheel speed sensor buy the Bosch M4 system.

Or COMPLETELY copy the Corvette system.

Greg Weld made a very good point. I do not want to be liable for what someone does with their hot rod. I have seen some of the cars out there and the crappy wiring jobs. Some cars are well done but most are not.

Also, most time when I answer a question people come back with two more, then I answer those two guestions, then I get four. No good dead goes unpunished.

Yes, I sorted it out using a C6 Corvette system with out a lot of the sensors or a body control module. Do I want to let that calibration out. NO. It has no way to set a light if the system faults out. When I used it in 2010 my ABS faulted at OUSCI on the road course and I locked a front tire. I was ready for it and reverted back to a passive system. No issue. I used a Tech 2 reset the ECBM and went on my was to win the event... Unlike FSAE....

People on this form my think that is selfish. Well every car out there is a snowflake. I don't have the time or energy to answer all the off the wall questions. Also the system is one off, not validated and has no safety check function warning light. That message comes through the the BCM (Body Control Module).

I have a lot of experience driving GM cars at the race track to fine faults in ABS system. When the ABS faults out it can be very dangerous. Ask Randy Johnson about his crash when his faulted out. I have flat spotted tires and almost crashed a dozen cars looking for issues. Your average guy might not be as experienced as me. Heck Danny Popp went off track at this years OUSCI because his ABS faulted out due to low voltage and he had a warning light.

Most older OE ABS modules have a back up calibration that will work without all the sensors. It is chunky and will keep the car from locking up the brakes. The tires needs to be within 3% of the stock diameters. I do not recommend just trying it. Look at all the guys complaining about their C5 Corvette ABS systems not working well.

If you use the C5 guys as a test case. Guys change tires, wheels, brake rotors, brake calipers and pads and wonder why their ABS is not working. So let's use an engine anology.... I have a LS6 and change it to a 427 with big cam and heads and you want it to work with a stock engine cal. How do you think it will work?

Right now to the best of my knowledge the best system to use is the Bosch M4 system. GM, Ford, BMW, Porsche..... All the OE make millions of ABS systems every year. We make it work. Copy the complete ABS system and electrical architecture and it should work. This will not be easy, but shops like the Ring Brothers just did it on that Caddy.

Mark Stielow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ns RS (Post 653016)

and as a result and i could be mistaken, but i think a Bosch system was incorporated into jackass 2.0?

Yes I added the Bosch M4 system on Jackass. Works great with the Carbon ceramic brakes. Zero issues!

Mark

That's great info! I hate ABS (happily cut it out of my Corvette's brake system), but I'm glad I read this. Thank you, sir!

Thanks Mark, I'm just kidding about the FSAE thing we had a ringer on our team who is now the chief engineer for Roush Racing. I'll dig into the C5 system in more detail as 90% of my driveline mimics it. The only difference is the rear wheel speed sensor, I'll have to compare to see if they are the same as the C5 (Which I doubt) but you are right about changes to the calibrated system, I have that problem on my firebird with better brakes and Hoosiers, it's real easy to get into Ice Mode and there is no recovery after you've already cooked the braking zone standing as hard as you can on the pedal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beach Cruiser (Post 653369)

My Lotus 2 11 goes into Ice Mode in a spin...... and that's a factory system. Lotus - sadly - never worked that bug out of the system. So the key is -- don't spin. Simple.

Mark do you ever run a catch can setup and if so what does your system look like? Trying to get more clarity of the proper way to route the pcv system.