ABS module.
 

I was wondering what the difference is between the two different ABS modules.
Does the Delphi have any benefits that made you choose it over the Bosch setup?
I'm assuming there has to be some kind of benefit since you went through the trouble of having custom hubs made with the older style wheel speed sensor.

Thanks for any info you can offer.

Keith Quinn.

Another awesome build, awesome shop, and that is a really cool car gathering...that's my kind of party!

The Bosch production system required communication to a body control module over CAN. Adding the BCM in is a bit tricky. The Delphi system can run more stand alone and had been used stand alone in racing. Newer system are more linked together over CAN. As an example the brake switch and the warning lights are on the CAN bus in a C6 Corvette. So to go from a discreit input (on / off) to a CAN input to the ABS module requires a converter box.

All the newer ABS system have stability, traction, ice and snow modes incorporated. Which means it needs to communicate to the whole car via CAN. Trying to make a OE system stand alone is hard.

Bosch offers a racing stand alone system that is laptop programmable that is great but spendy. That system is very flexible.

Mark

I wish you'd volunteer to look at my Lotus 2 Eleven ABS and figure out how to make it NOT go into ICE mode when going backwards (a known bug). :>)

Greg, my degree in theology and biblical studies doesn't quite compare to Mark's engineering degrees, but I think I can help you on this one.

When you start the Lotus, and get ready to roll out on the track, take a careful look at your gear selector. You will see an "R" which is for REVERSE, not RACE.

Sorry man, couldn't resist that one...

Mark, sorry for misdirecting the thread momentarily...

How can he practice his Rockfords without full reverse?

Abs.
 

Thanks for the reply Mark.
I have been following your builds since the Mule, I've loved every one of them.
The latest car is over the top, can't wait to see it finished.
Not trying to hijack your thread but I have a few more questions now.

That's good info about the ABS, I didn't realize that the new Bosch unit required the BCM.
I have a 2010 C6 engine wiring harness for my car. I had originally bought a Delphi Z06 ABS module. The harness i have includes the connector for the Bosch unit so I bought a Bosch module. I was going to run the BCM as well to get the control for the ABS unit.
I'm running 08 hubs and speed sensors so i guess they are compatible only with the Delphi module.

I'd like to run the Delphi unit so that I don't have to buy new hubs. I haven't been able to find the connector for the Delphi unit. The dealer tells me i have to buy an entire harness.
Do you know of a supplier who sells the connector or have a GM part number?


Love the 2 Elevens Greg. My brother has one that he just bought this year. He's loving it but is having trouble with the second gear synchro.
He's looking into either a dog box or a sequential now.

Thanks.

Keith Quinn.

Does he post as BlackPenquinn on LotusTalk??

Wiring Update
 

Speaking of wiring Ryan Kuhlenbeck and I are on our 4th version of wiring. Ryan is the brains behind the wiring and has it sorted out. We are wiring this whole car from scratch. Wire of spools, no kits. Our own fuse boxes and power distubution system.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps46564fdd.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps6ea7099a.jpg

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...psff94174e.jpg

We will build the engine harness then dyno with its correct harness.

Mark

Wow....talk about customization. :idea: Sweet Mark!!

Holy Crap!

I've often wondered what you do in your 'spare' time, this task pretty much answers that question. :D

Since Ryan is going to be there awhile... you might as well fly out and help me with that ABS system...


I've done an awful lot of car wiring - building wiring - machine wiring... but no way would I start from scratch like that! WOW.

Yes you would.

With a LS9 and a E67 controller, ABS brakes, Vintage Air, Stereo, Stack Data Logging dash and Vapor Work fuel controller; there is a lot of wiring. It is just easier to do it from scratch. We have ever connecter defined for that pin is what function, color of wire and gauge. We copied a Corvette ZR-1 for wire colors and sizes. We can trouble shoot the system with a GM Tech 2 and the factory wiring manual. Some of the connectors are hard to find but over the last couple years Ryan has found them all. He does like MIL Spec connectors which drive the price up a bit but allows the engine or other harness to be removed from the main body harness.

To get all the wire in the correct gauge and strips Ryan had to order some of it custom. A bit over kill but it is nice to have the OE wire style and color coding.

"If it is worth doing it is worth over doing"

Mark

Oh.... I wasn't saying I "wouldn't start from scratch like that" because I thought it was the wrong thing to do.... I was saying that because even with as much wiring as I've done --- I wouldn't personally have the talent to do this job! It's very impressive - and even more impressive with the amount of electronics - and mixing and matching and communications that are going on.

my new quote. I have always been impressed with the integration your able to achieve especially with the reliability you have. I guess been a GM engineer and refining your builds over the last 15 cars goes along ways towards that, plus working with some of the best guys in the business doesn't hurt either.

If you have the ability and tools to do it, it's the only way to do it right.

Where do you source your wire?

We had Wyetch and Terminal Supply quote the order the used the two quotes to get a better price. We ended up getting the wire from Terminal Supply in Troy MI to save shipping.

thank you Mark.

Yes that's him Greg.

Mark, would Ryan sell me a connector for the Delphi ABS module?
If so, could you post or PM me his contact info?

Thanks

Keith Quinn

I'm obviously not an engineer so I'm just trying to comprehend how much time it would take me to plan-out a complete wiring system, starting with just wire, a fuse box, and a bunch connectors... I'm guessing a full week of just drawing the schematic, another week to plan-out routing, probably 2 weeks to install all the connectors, and another full week for complete installation! I cant say it doesn't look like fun, though! Any tips you feel like posting for this part of the project will be much appreciated, Mark!

In other news...wire stocks rose.


:thankyou:

Mark, if your car already has provisions for wheel speed sensors what would be a good cost estimate to install ABS? I know you need wheel speed sensors, some sort of controller and some wiring. I am surprised no one is offering a kit yet, at least that I have seen, my guess it is a concern of liability that is preventing a retail solution.

Keep up the great work, cant wait to see the next update.

wow...

Wow indeed!!! You guys have got your work cut out for you!!!!

Engine harness is done. Working on body harness now.

Mark

lets see it...unless its

I got tired of wiring so I'm working on my diff and transmission cooling. I'm using a set up from a ZL-1 to cool my diff. I had D&D performance modify my Tremec T-56 Magnum to accept a stock TR6060 oil pump. I will use that mechanical pump to pump transmission fluid to the radiator to cool it in a oil to water oil cooler in the end tank. Then the cooled trans fluid gets pumped to the back of the car to go to a oil to oil diff cooler. I'm using the stock ZL-1cooler (part number 20931169). The trans fluid then goes back to the transmission.

We use this system on both the Z/28 and the ZL-1. It works great!

The CAD picture is the diff cooler in the Z/28. I used the ZL-1 cooler because it is 30% bigger.

So more OE tech in my hot rod.

Mark

Pay attention kids. These are the moments that will help seperate you from the pack down the road!

Great work Mark. I love seeing how you integrate OE tech into your Hot Rods!

Interesting! I remember the discussion about this system in one of the Z28 videos, but I guess I didn't really think through it.

So you are using the engine coolant to cool the trans fluid - typical
You are using the trans fluid to cool the differential - interesting

Are normal manual trans temps that much cooler than a differential or does this only work because the trans fluid is being "pre-cooled" before being sent back to the diff cooler?

I'll bet that adds a lot of capacity to the trans fluid system!

Uhhh...Mark, I have the slightest idea of what you just said as I'm not a racer or track guy. But, I don't understand logic and reasoning...this is just bad a$$. Wow!! :headscratch: :faint: How do you do it...I mean how do you think of this stuff? :idea:

Wow --- it might be fun to try to outbid Charley for this one.....



What temps are you trying to achieve with this setup.... assuming it works just the same in this application as it does on the Z/28 & ZL/1 you mentioned.

The system now holds 4.5 quarts of trans fluid I'll need to chech the diff volume but it should be a little more also.

I'll need to look up the kW heat rejection from the trans but it is a lot less than the diff. Off memory the diff needs 3 kW of cooling and the trans needs 1 kW and the oil cooler in the rad rejects 5 kW so the fluid is over cooled at the rad then sent to the diff. The trans fluid leaving the heat exchanger in the diff is still cool enough to cool the trans. We did it this way in production due to the cost of pumps and coolers. The pump in the Tremec trans is relatively cheap compared to a electric pump. We can run a ZL-1 and a Z/28 on track for tank fulls of fuel with no over temp issues. Before we added this cooling loop a ZL-1 would over temp the diff in 5 laps. I think the C-6 Vetts have a similar system.

Since I added diff coolers to my project my ring and pinion life has gone way up. . It also allows only one set of -6 lines to the front of the car. On Red Devil I had -6 AN for the trans and -8 AN for the diff due to the length of the lines and the viscosity of the fluid when it was cold. This system is also lighter that two big Weldon electric pumps. Red Devil still has the original ring and pinion in it from when I built the car and it is quite.

Another side benefit to this set up is it can also pre-warm your diff and trans in the pits. On cold mornings at the track if you let the car idle in natural the trans pump is working moving fluid to the red where it is heated then to the diff and the trans warming them. Nice for 35 degree mornings like at OUSCI.

At 740 HP to the tires diff and trans cooling become real issues.

My trans cooler in my rad is around 10 kw, bigger that the Z/28's, due to my higher output.

Cool oil is happy oil.

Thanks for the additional details!

Greg

You really want to keep the trans and the diff below 325 F with a synthetic. I like to see under 300 F and over 210 F for track usage. If you get over 350 F you will start killing seals and hurting parts.


Mark

This is fantastic!! I am not building anything to this caliber, but am working towards a track car with my IROC. I have been trying to figure out a way to cool my manual trans and diff without all of the pumps and lines. This actually answers my dilemma. Now onto the next one...where to find the money to buy these parts.

Wow this one nice set up. Very well thought out , reduces weight , clutter , cost efficient and brings your trans and rear to working temp while at idle.
That is some real big boy engineering.

This is going to be the baddest PT car out there period.

Congrats mark

...try imagining Garth doing the run down. It worked for me.

I remember reading about the diff cooler. I'd think the plates would be larger and spaced farther apart due to the diff fluid viscosity.

The art of engineering
 

I have followed your previous builds, read your book (loved it for the advice and explanations on why you do it the way you do your builds), and really like the rendering of Hellfire. You prove that good engineering is so beautiful that to me it is art. Yes, there is science in what you do but the result if a work of art. Can't wait to see video of it making runs on a track.