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-   -   With more PT cars being tracked is it changing PT vendors product offerings? (https://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26086)

70rs 03-30-2010 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Adams (Post 278838)
The thing I've noticed in the last couple years are the large increases in hp in the cars now, while keeping the weight ratio low. IMO 600hp is the low end and 700-800 will be the norm, if you want to compete. Especially at places like Pahrump.

The LS motors have been a big improvement.
Not to argue against your comment, but how much power can really be used in a PT car that is done right. (good suspension, tires, brakes...)
What is the limit of useful power? The limits come into play with traction of course. And there is a big difference between the auto x course and open track too. I assume an open track event might be able to use more power and help, but that at the auto x too much power might be tough to manage unless you want to go drifting. ??

I ask because I am shooting for about 500-550 hp and my car will be 90% street driven. But it will have a very good suspension system, brakes and tires too. I figured the HP goals I have in mind would be more than enough and too much more might just be wasted.

Your thoughts? Any ones thoughts?

Thanks for any input on this. Just something I had been thinking about.

Vegas69 03-30-2010 01:37 PM
I'm not sure I agree with you Stuart. With the new treadwear ratings the extra power may prove to be a disadvantage or a very slight advantage.

fleet 03-30-2010 02:12 PM
Mark Steilow's new car might answer a bunch of these questions soon. :D

Ron in SoCal 03-30-2010 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 70rs (Post 278841)
Not to argue against your comment, but how much power can really be used in a PT car that is done right. (good suspension, tires, brakes...)
What is the limit of useful power? The limits come into play with traction of course. And there is a big difference between the auto x course and open track too. I assume an open track event might be able to use more power and help, but that at the auto x too much power might be tough to manage unless you want to go drifting. ??

I ask because I am shooting for about 500-550 hp and my car will be 90% street driven. But it will have a very good suspension system, brakes and tires too. I figured the HP goals I have in mind would be more than enough and too much more might just be wasted.

Your thoughts? Any ones thoughts?

Thanks for any input on this. Just something I had been thinking about.
Hey Eric...I agree somewhat. IMHO, today's designs support about 650 to the rear wheels in most track events on first gens. This goes to Skip's early supposition that PT cars are getting more track serious as R&D cycles progress. I took one look at Todd's spinout at Spring Mtn (I think), and made that call. Further, I'm just a hobbiest. I don't have a race team nor a budget to support full time racing (but wouldn't that be fun), so I'm building a street use car that is track capable. If I had unlimited resources I'd build a car like Jackass, but I don't so I'll get my car done with around 500 RWHP and do a motor upgrade as phase two to try and get to 600+...

Ron

70rs 03-30-2010 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flash911 (Post 278855)
Hey Eric...I agree somewhat. IMHO, today's designs support about 650 to the rear wheels in most track events on first gens. This goes to Skip's early supposition that PT cars are getting more track serious as R&D cycles progress. I took one look at Todd's spinout at Spring Mtn (I think), and made that call. Further, I'm just a hobbiest. I don't have a race team nor a budget to support full time racing (but wouldn't that be fun), so I'm building a street use car that is track capable. If I had unlimited resources I'd build a car like Jackass, but I don't so I'll get my car done with around 500 RWHP and do a motor upgrade as phase two to try and get to 600+...

Ron
Hi Ron,
I agree on the R&D comment too. And I see more products all the time that APPEAR to be geared more on the performance side of the fence. Like you I am just a hobbiest and have to make the best of what I have and even though the car will be really nice and very capable it will still be full of compromise compared to a track only car. I need it to perform everywhere and over a very wide spectrum. A full tilt track car would suck on the street IMO. But then again that is the cool thing about these cars, getting the max level of performance we can and still be able to live with them on the road.
That is where I see the parts manufacturers heading within this portion of the car hobby. More and more people want performance but still do not want to give up comfort and style.

rogue 03-30-2010 02:25 PM
PT cars being tracked? where? Most PT cars only "track" at good guys and car show events. I'm glad to see events like El toro happening, but I don't see too many people getting too involved in track days....

I've invited every single person on both latg and pro-touring.com to every event I've ever attended. Never has anyone shown.

You'll notice most of the cars actually tracked are rough, for good reason. If you don't slide off the track from time to time, you're not driving fast enough.

rogue 03-30-2010 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 70rs (Post 278841)
Not to argue against your comment, but how much power can really be used in a PT car that is done right. (good suspension, tires, brakes...)
What is the limit of useful power? The limits come into play with traction of course. And there is a big difference between the auto x course and open track too. I assume an open track event might be able to use more power and help, but that at the auto x too much power might be tough to manage unless you want to go drifting. ??

I ask because I am shooting for about 500-550 hp and my car will be 90% street driven. But it will have a very good suspension system, brakes and tires too. I figured the HP goals I have in mind would be more than enough and too much more might just be wasted.

Your thoughts? Any ones thoughts?

Thanks for any input on this. Just something I had been thinking about.
HP has nothing to do with being fast. You realize this when you're passed by a spec miata or boxster. Its all driver.

A key fact most pro-touring folks forget. Hence many cars being driven by other drivers and not the owners.

In the track community you'll hear stories about stock looking subarus and occasionally oddball cars like mazda speeds showing up to track events and dominating the entire field. Why? not power, its the driver, and the driver knows the car.

rogue 03-30-2010 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas69 (Post 278802)
Trying to walk the line between street and track duty is no easy task. From clutches, oil coolers, brake pads, crankcase evacuation, fuel systems, clearances, heat protection, power steering and the list goes on and on. A regular PT car is going to be able to get away with murder compared to a car like Penny where it's pushed to the absolute limit. A compromise is the easiest definition. You must find the best option that will make you happy on the street(happy as you can be) and capable of taking the abuse. I'm not sure I would've built this car so nice if I could rewind time. The bottom line is the street is a joke for these cars. This thing goes from 50 to 100 in the blink of an eye. You simply can't use it unless you live in the country somewhere. The race track is the ONLY place you can realize the cars true potential safely. Not everyone is interested in racing or trying to outgun Penny or Jackass. That's certainly not my goal. My goal is to make my car as reliable and fast as I'm capable. If I'm at the top or bottom of the heap, I honestly don't care.

Don't get roped into thinking something is capable of withstanding the abuse you plan just because it's a PT part. Do your own due diligence. At the end of the day, you are basically engineering your own car by using parts from bunches of different companies and making them gel. It's actually a fun part of the build. Everytime you solve a problem, you make the car better and more reliable.
I'm glad you're addicted to the track Todd. I really am. Your car deserves to be flogged.

Besides, we need to show all these LSX bandwagon folks that big cubes can still get it done. :thumbsup: (at 5mpg) :lol:

Stuart Adams 03-30-2010 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas69 (Post 278842)
I'm not sure I agree with you Stuart. With the new treadwear ratings the extra power may prove to be a disadvantage or a very slight advantage.
Todd, you know I love your car and respect you, so disageeing with me is no biggie, I'm not very smart most of the time. I've just noticed some trends. We all can agree about suspension components, brakes ,etc as being a huge upgrade from stock. I've just noticed cars like DSE's test cars, Scott's car, Air rides stuff, Penny, Jackass, your new powerplant in your car, and Marks amazing almost done car, that hp is not low. And it just make sense to me that if the weight can be kept down somewhat while increasing hp then that will be better. I also know some tracks won't matter as much, but overall it is better IMO.

I don't see you building a new motor with less hp!!

More tire up front is a huge deal IMO, but that's just me.

rogue 03-30-2010 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Adams (Post 278868)
Todd, you know I love your car and respect you, so disageeing with me is no biggie, I'm not very smart most of the time. I've just noticed some trends. We all can agree about suspension components, brakes ,etc as being a huge upgrade from stock. I've just noticed cars like DSE's test cars, Air rides stuff, Penny, Jackass, your new powerplant in your car, and Marks amazing almost done car, that hp is not low. And it just make sense to me that if the weight can be kept down somewhat while increasing hp then that will be better. I also know some tracks won't matter as much, but overall it is better IMO.

I don't see you building a new motor with less hp!!

More tire up front is a huge deal IMO, but that's just me.
HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent. I admit this with my own car. More tire up front is the biggest deal, I agree 100%.

The jury is out on whether or not aftermarket subframes, LSX engines, 3 links, and all the latest goodies make a fast car or not. The only way of testing it would be to use 1 driver, 1 track, multiple cars and tracking data. In my own heavily biased and sometimes obnoxious opinion :lol: most of the aftermarket parts we are so blessed to have are shiny bling, nothing more.

Good ole leaf springs, a modified stock subframe, a decent amount of power, and a decent driver will go a LOT farther than a guy whos never spent any seat time at a track with a 150k pro-touring car....

Point is, spend more time on the track, get faster. You can spend all you want on your car, or as little, the guy that spends more time out driving will always be faster.

Speaking of which, any of you interested in skip barber this year? Todd? Once I'm recovered from this surgery I have the itch to go to laguna seca and drive up as well. :thumbsup:


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