I don't disagree with you Ron for the most part. I do agree that my original comment about backing out on the order after a lot of time and money expended by the vendor is pushing it and unreasonable, I still think there needs to be consequences to not living up to commitments. This whole game that "I'm THE GUY for this so you will get what I give you, when I give it to you" that runs rampant in this hobby has got to stop somehow.

If these engine guys are as good as they say they are, then they know how long it takes to provide the level of service they commit too. As long as the payment schedule is fair and based on known lead times, I don't think it is unreasonable to request.


Jeff, while I understand where you are coming from, most of what you point out is usually propaganda businesses that can't meet their commitments use to make excuses. It is a fact that inventory costs money and most small businesses can not afford to have a lot of money tied up in stock. However, it still comes down to managing a project correctly and quoting based on facts. If a particular engine combination uses custom parts than the builder should get firm delivery quotes for those parts before the customer is quoted cost and delivery. These delivery quotes can then be retained so that when an order is placed if there are delays this information can be presented to the customer to help them understand what the delays are. Unfortunately it happens all too often that some folks that are experts at some service or skill are not always capable business people or project managers.

The whole "just in time" manufacturing thing also raises my blood pressure. It has become a buzz word for "It's not our fault". Most small businesses that say they have adopted this process have no idea what it is all about. Not having stock on the shelves and ordering every part needed for each project is NOT "just in time" manufacturing. This process is built on statistical data for each component and supplier so that a forecast schedule can be developed so that orders are placed automatically. These orders are placed so that the parts arrive in the facility "just in time" for the process to continue WITHOUT delays. In most cases this type of process is not suited to custom one off projects that require different components every time. It is meant to streamline a high volume production line.


If a mutually beneficial contract scares a vendor off, i would say so be it. It really scares me that when all you expect is to get what you asked for, when you asked for it, for what you agreed to pay for it, you are "One of those DIFFICULT customers". I much prefer to work the way you stated Matt. There was a time when this was the only way to do business. But, unfortunately it is getting to be all to common, especially in this hobby that vendors AND customers are becoming untrustworthy. I think word of mouth is critical in making decisions like these, but not full proof. I speak from experience. We almost spent 15K on an engine through Prodigy based on all kinds of recommendations. But, I guess we were lucky in that he neglected to return many phone calls which gave us a bad feeling. In the end we passed on that deal and feel very lucky that we did. But, up to that point I had not heard one bad thing about them. 6 months later the you know what hit the fan. If we would have moved forward, this would have been an excellent situation for a contract.

I work for an OEM manufacturer of heavy industrial equipment. We are somewhat unique in that we don't do any manufacturing in house. We contract manufacture 100% of our goods. Our business does 15-17 million a year with projects that range from 2000 to 1.5 million. We have to make commitments to our customers for every one of them and we are completely dependent on our vendors to live up to these commitments. We have a 97% on time rate and when we are going to be late we are in constant communication with our customers to try and help reduce the impact on them. And don't think we are a huge company with unlimited resources. We do all this with 14 people. Before we quote a customer, we know what items are going to be long lead items and we get firm commitments from the vendors for those parts. If on the odd occasion we cannot get a firm commitment, this is presented to the customer up front so that they can decide if this level of uncertainty is acceptable. There is no reason that any engine builder could not do the same thing.

It is time for things to start changing and people stop accepting poor service as "it's just how it is in this hobby". Contracts may not be the answer, but someone has to try something or nothing will change.

OK, I've got my nomex on let the flaming and flogging begin! :getout:

:underchair:

One last thing to add. While we didn't have contract per say with Wegner, we did have an agreed on set of components and output requirements in writing before the order was placed. They had no issue with doing that and were very easy to work with. I will say too, they even agreed to delay the build until we were ready in exchange for a down payment. While what we got isn't exotic, it was still more than just a rebuild. So we got what we wanted, when we wanted it, for what we were quoted. In exchange they got prompt payment for their services. Win win. If everyone did it this way, this thread wouldn't exist. :beathorse

Maybe I should clarify a little and add that I wouldn't approach a shop waving legal documents around before getting down to talk final numbers. Even then I myself would shy away from accepting such work unless I had all of the pieces already in my possession, and I definitely wouldn't let someone bring me a pile of parts because you never know if everything is going to work if different parties sourced different parts and so forth.

Good advice! I just got a Hilarious visual! Tact is always good! :lol:

Always good to have a capable attorney as an ally.

I think it is about the relationship and open communication. The vibe I get is Troy is your man, you seem really happy with him. What your trying to do is not difficult per say. Your looking for a turbo big block engine for a street driven Camaro. Your not looking to qualify #1 at a heads up drag race event. So I think that should help you narrow your selection down. If I was in your shoes I would talk to guys who have done what you want in your area. Mike Norris in Indy would be a good contact. He knows what he is doing and lives in Indy which is the Motorsports central for the north. My guess is Troy will be building the headers and exhaust for your narrowed subframe. So you have the fab work covered. More then likely you will buy a manifold. So find a semi local guy who has good recommendations. Ask for customer references, I want new customers to talk to the usual guys, helps the new guy feel comfortable and helps me sort out the losers.

I think your contract will scare off a builder who is having to rely on others to supply parts. I would not sign that contract until ALL parts where in my shop. Let the builder buy all the parts, he needs to make his margin. Go visit him regularly and check to see if he is doing what he says and buy him lunch and let him buy you lunch.

Really at the end of the day whatever you want to build cannot be that tough, my buddy just destroked a 726 nos engine to a 588 on methanol that will spin to 10k rpms. They think it makes 3500hp with twin 94's. Something like that takes a while and the right guy.

How about a stipulation, if the hold up is another vender the extra time could be added to the end if its needed with no consequence to the builder. You could use the invoice dates to monitor time tables.

When you borrow money to build a house, the contractor usually gets 7 or 8 draws.
I vote for something like this.

Though I understand where you are coming from, I would not take you on as my customer taking that approach.

A former business partner and still good friend of mine said something that made and makes a lot of sense to me still... it went something like this:

You can't let lawyers get too involved in business transactions all the time or no transaction would ever get done.

Like others have said..... location, specific & relevant experience, and communication should be paramount and foremost and price should be last. Because at $40k or whatever on a motor, you should not be price shopping and it doesn't sound like you.

Good luck.

I'm sorry if I have my facts incorrect, but I believe INTMD8 is Jim from Speed Inc. I think he has been very modest in his approach to this forum. I've been an Ls1tech member from almost day one, and I don't think I've seen him mention once who he is or where he works on this board. Speed Inc. has been one of the biggest speed shops in the LS world from day one and Jim is one of the most well respected tuners in the country.

Speed Inc. is right in your back yard. I don't believe they have an in house engine program(could be wrong), but I bet they can facilitate a deal between you and their bulder. No matter what you do for an engine you should take advantage of a resource like Jim being near by when it comes time to tune that new mill.