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Which shock would you recommend for a 80% street with some auto cross and track day time?
Oh and Ron looking forward to your book(s) and your shop to come online. |
I like Bilstein. I wonder if Hotchkis realized any cost savings when they went to Fox. I am guessing they didn't take a cut in their profit margins....
Don |
http://www.hotchkis.net/rear_hps_100...ofirebird.html
The picture shows Bilstein shocks, but the ad states Fox. :lostmarbles: |
AFCO is a good option and more economical.
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The factors that matter most to the ride & handling are: 1. Piston design - defines the valving curves possible 2. Piston seal & friction - self explanatory 3. Bleed valving - controls the initial shock responsiveness control 4. Valving control – in most cases a stack of special shims that deflect & define the oil flow through the piston 5. Adjustability range - To tune or adjust for very different situations like track & street 6. Rebound & compression bleed over - how much does one adjustment affect the other valving 7. Body & overall shock design – affects how it manages the pressure, control & responsiveness 8. Stiction - pressure required to get the shock to initially respond 9. Internal rod/shaft pressure - affects initial shock responsiveness I’m sure I left some things out, but you get the idea. Items 1, 2, 3, 4 play the biggest role in the valving curve. Items 5 & 6 define the range & accuracy of tuning. Items 7-9 define how well the shock can keep the tire gripping the asphalt over irregular surfaces. Other things matter too, like ... • Is it rebuildable? • Is it revalvable? • Parts availability? • Tech support? • Customer service? • Warranty? • Return/repair policy? • And lastly initial purchase price & TCO ... total cost of operation. What I learned about the Ridetech shock … and I hope I’m not sharing any of their trade secrets … are: a. By running larger bleed valve orifices b. Combined with stiffer main valving from the piston & shim stack c. Inside an extremely well designed shock d. Provides the best balance of ride comfort over irregular surfaces & bumps … and handling control with heavy cars in cornering situations. Other perks or benefits of their design are: e. Wide range of effective adjustability f. Very low pressure bleed over g. Fully rebuildable h. Easy to revalve for different curves I have experienced good parts availability, tech support & customer service. Since I don’t own a set of Ridetech shocks on a street car, I can not personally vouch for the million mile warranty or their return/repair policy … but I hear great things from their customers. Where the rubber meets the road for most guys is initial purchase price. I am super impressed with how much shock you get for your money. In my opinion, the Ridetech shocks are the best shock in their price range by far. Nothing that costs close to the Ridetech shocks can compare to the quality & performance of this shock. It is a heck of a value. Most people … not all … but most, do not look at TCO ... the total cost of operation. They should, but don’t always think past getting their baby running. When we factor in the million mile warranty and you realize you won’t ever need to replace these shocks. After years of use, if the shocks fail, just have Ridetech rebuild them. So the initial cost is the total cost … well … wow. I/We have revalved some Ridetech shocks with my “secret sauce” valving to achieve what I call “Mean Autox valving.” In one version, on Lance Hamilton’s 85 Monte Carlo SS, we can tune the valving to be a mean AutoX performer … kicking butt on an amazing list of C6 Vettes, WRX’s & other cars … and the wide adjustability range allows the shocks to be adjusted back to great street ride. In another version, we make the valving “meaner” for competition purposes and the ride can be adjusted back to “pretty good” for the street, but not as well as Ridetech is famous for. This second version is for cars that see less street time & are more concerned with winning events. I was blown away at how well these shocks perform on track with some of my “secret sauce” mean race valving. Do I feel Ridetech are the best shocks available? No. I hope I don’t hurt anyone’s feelings, but there are a handful of better true racing shocks out there. They cost a lot more, and in higher levels of competition where winning races is king, these other brands are the better choice for racing or all out track performance. But the questions so far on this specific forum thread have been about ride quality & handling performance on the street & occasional AutoX or track day. I feel Ridetech shocks are awesome at this & offer the best value. For full racing & hardcore track shocks, I rate the top brands as follows, in order: 1. JRI 2. Penske (upper levels only) 3. Ohlin 4. ARS This rating can change … and has over the years … as shock manufacturers come out with new designs. For all out track performance, the JRI shocks are tops. They cost more, but if winning races & events is important to you, then you will justify the cost. Just so folks are clear on my business situation & objectivity … I am a dealer for 17 brands of shocks, including most being discussed here. |
Ron, thanks for an excellent and thorough response. From what you have mentioned the Ridetech shocks (dampers) sound a good fit for my application.
I come from a motorcycle road racing back ground so I have some experience with shock technology, construction and tuning. I have/use Ohlins & Penske shocks on my bikes and can attest the quality and "adjustibility" they offer. We dyno our shocks and re-valve them as needed, plus rebuild them often due to the rigors of the track. To hear that some of these qualities can be had in a shock for the price of the Ridetechs is truly amazing and well worth it. Being on a relatively modest budget for this build up means these seem perfect for my needs. Ron would you say there is enough adjustment in the off the shelf ones for mild track tuning? Being new to 4 wheeled suspension tuning means I will most likely do allot of playing. I have much to learn and find making the adjustments and testing really helps me understand what changes will do in the real application vs text book. |
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The answer to that question is subjective. I think for most guys, the standard valving is good for street & track. The more hardcore you are about track performance, the greater the need to have Ridetech or someone like my operation revalve them with more aggressive rebound valving. You might consider buying them off the shelf & run them some. Then if you want them more aggressive, you can always have them revalved. |
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Man, are we lucky to have you in this community :cheers: |
I think Ron Sutton has about as firm a grasp on the overall situation as anyone I've run across, and he is being VERY gracious to share his expertise and advice here.
A few more observations... I think Ron's list of the "best" shocks is likely accurate and interchangeable (meaning they could be listed in nearly any order). Keep in mind he is operating at a MUCH higher level than most here. I also think that the advantages in precision and tuning are ONLY realized when the driver, the tuner, and the rest of the car are COMPLETELY optimized. I doubt that there are more than 5 people on this forum that would fall into that category. If you were to take a set of our shocks off your car and install a set from Ron's "best" list, your car would likely not get quicker because of all the other (necessary) compromises that exist in a street driven car (as well as most track cars) One should also be aware that when you narrow the tolerances to increase precision, and add tuning options, you increase the necessity of maintainence. That is why real racers rebuild their shocks (and their engines, and their transmissions, and their brakes, and their????...) on a regular basis. You need to ask yourself if you are prepared to make that time and money investment. Having said all that, COULD we build a shock as "good" as the rest on that list? Sure. We work directly with Fox who builds shocks for 3lb carbon Kevlar bicycles (where shock force values are measured in fractions of an ounce) to 5" diameter water cooled external bypass shocks that will live 1000 miles at Baja. The technology is already in place, (we build such units for our defense customers)...all we'd have to do is spec the dimensions and do some valve code development. Would you buy them? How many guys are up for a unit with all the zoomy tricks at $1000-$2500 EACH? Maybe we'll have to find out :) Ron...as a shock manufacturer, as a businessman, and mostly as a hotrodder...thanks for sharing your experience with all of us. We will ALL benefit from it! |
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