the motivation was Allen Buttons 32 if you haven't seen it it's in the ppg ads in most magazines -I think finding a builder is difficult what type of project would you like to build -

I agree. Depending on the type of car there are definitely builders who are above the rest.

I also see what Rodger is talking about everyday. We have quite a few customers that just want a certain portion of a car done. Usually something they can not do or want to do themselves.

My opinion is if you can keep a build around the $50k mark, there are ALOT of people willing to spend that for a project.

[QUOTE=J2SpeedandCustom]I agree. Depending on the type of car there are definitely builders who are above the rest.

I also see what Rodger is talking about everyday. We have quite a few customers that just want a certain portion of a car done. Usually something they can not do or want to do themselves.

My opinion is if you can keep a build around the $50k mark, there are ALOT of people willing to spend that for a project.[/QUOTE


what do you consider a realistic budget for a complete build minus parts

Ron

For all the time I have spent seeking a builder you sure cut right to the final chapter.

My project is a 67 Chevelle. More D-Touring that G-Touring. I have to state that right up front so I don't get letters about how my big block is wa wa wa wa....

New frame to be determined
C6 front suspension, custom upper a-arms and coil-overs all around
Nine inch rear or maybe Quick-change
Big Block size to be determined by size of my future wallet. I already own a couple of big blocks but they don't size up to the current 632's out there
Trans something very cool (not automatic) I've got to have three pedals
Procharger front mounted with intercooler (that will be interesting)
AC from Classic Air (their unit is bigger than anyone elses and I live in the desert)
Brakes 14inch front, 6 piston maybe Alcons. Rears a tad smaller
Tires as big as the fenders will allow (Big Red has 335's in the front)
Interior leather covered race seats ie Calaway C16
Body mods like Johnny51 (you have to get close to see the details)
Trunk has to have enough room to pack my $hit for the Power Tour and a few trips accross the country on other Tours, Not filled up with fuel cells and batteries and speakers

It won't be as quick in the road course as some and not the fastest at the 10.5 Drags but is should be dam FUN and a little scary for others

Maybe I can reach the top 5 in Columbus some year.

Mick

I love a 67 chevelle sound great-
last but not least what is your budget

build stuff
 

Well said! As far as time, we thought our car would be done quick in about 4 months. That idea turns as you go on through the build. Ideas get bigger, and the time stretches longer and longer. That obviously adds to the $$ it costs too. You start out saying okay im going to spend this much...that rarely happens. If the car starts turning out nice then you just want to add more and more. Addicting!
-derek

Ron
I had a budget but NovaNutcase told me what you expect to pay X 3

So I know my budget is not 1m, but I can see that over time I'm going to be catching you. There is alot more sheet metal on a 67 compared to a 32.

Mick

Now what is your goals for the car trophies or driving

I want both, but I hate to clean and I love to drive so a trophy right after paint and then driving driving driving.


Mick

Build cost
 

I think everyone underesitmates the cost of their project. I initially thought I could have my 1965 Fastback built for $80,000 and ended up spending double that. I also got screwed by my first shop, so you could chop $20,000 from that total, but your still in for $140,000. Parts wise I was not surprised because I precalculated ordering everything. Yep, every nut and bolt. Don't just say engine:$4,000. get into the details, you'll find out quick $4,000 is not even slightly realistic for even a budget crate 350. go top down with a catalog. chrome air cleaner $X, decal $X, wing nut $X, filter $x. The bits and pieces really add up! a starter here, pulleys, gaskets, fittings, fuel pumps, etc. Back in the mid 80's you could build a nice mid 60's car for less than a comparable new one (i.e. a mustang) because they were only 20 years old and every little thing did not have to be replaced. Now those cars are 40 years old and odds are everything is shot. A new mustang GT is about $30,000 with a warranty. It would be next to impossible to buy a 65-67 fastback and have it look anywhere close to new for $30,000, let alone compete performance wise with a new one. Ironically, new is now the budget option, and you can finance it!!!!

I also hate to clean, love to drive-my car was not as clean as it should have been but I figures that if I cleaned it all weekend and didn't win it would be worse then if I drove it all weekend and didn't win- I thing one of the reasons I won top five was I was seen driving the car all over and a couple of small hole shots But I think you can do both without a crazy budget the key is to stick to the theme of the car and plan everything up front which I think you have done and don't add

The problem I find is that most guys think they can have a top 5 car for the 50 large. It is possible to build a kick ass car for 50 grand in parts. In this months PHR John Parsons said he had 78,000 in parts and 4000 hours to build. So in my book that car is 78,000 + (whatever his time is worth) X 4000 hours. So at 40 bucks for an at home guy, you have 160,000 plus 78,000. I would say that thing is easily worth 238,000.

As far as the 3 times you original estimate statement, I think It depends on how rational your 1st idea of a budget is. If you think You gonna win the ridler on 50,000, YOUR PROBABLY HIGH..... But if you think you could be in the great 8 for 350,000, your realistic with the right builder and hopefully lucky.

The best thing you can do is really plan out what you want and then decide can I even afford what I'm wanting now let alone what my builder is going to invision. Or even what your going to invision when we get the car on the ground for the first time. The more you dream about it the more expensive it gets. The sky really is the limit, the only thing tying you down is your wallet andyou and your builder's creativity and passion.

just my 2 cents, which is over my budget.

Rodger

Is this a trick question? just kidding... I think your in the $30k - $100k+ depending on the complexity of the build. A simple muscle car driver to a full on dream machine like yours Ron. :thumbsup:

We really try to work with the client and make their dreams a reality. I learned early on that minding the money during a build is very important. You can spend money on something that doesn't "improve" the build. Like polishing and chroming an entire motor it looks unbelievable, but that's money that could go to improving the chassis, or a new parts, etc.

Oh yeah you run into those guys every once in a while. :lol: There is a certain amount of education for the owner when building their car. Unless they have build one full out there is alot that goes into a complete build. It's hard to explain that you can spend $5k just on fasteners, hoses, connectors, and misc parts.

Mick If you want to know what I look for in a builders that helps me choose- read this statement above that's what I look for I would Like to work with them- I also Like larry from LL customs from talking to him

To me the bottom line is that it should be fun and memorable. No matter how much you spend. I have built cars that were low budgets for the coolest guys and had way more fun working on them, instead of the million dollar car for the guys who just don't get it.

There is no better fruits of labor then when an owner and builder get on the same page of what the owner wants and the builder is just as excited about it. And seeing the look in the owners eye when he sits in the car for the first time and hits the key and you see his eyes light up.

That's gonna be me in about 6 months! Right Rodger! Rodger?? Hello??:_paranoid

Actually, that happens to me everytime I go up to see the car and discuss what part of the build we should tackle next!

Ron? Not to discount any of the other builders that you mentioned but I think you should talk to Rodger if you have a project that you want to do. I can say that I am beyond happy with the build as it has progressed even though I am beyond my budget but that is my fault! I've approved and insisted on many of the things that we have added from the original budget. I kind of knew it would turn out this way in the back of my mind anyways since I know how I am in these types of situations.

John

Ron
Thank you for the comment. Again thank you all for your insite's. As it has been said before you start adding all the bit's and pieces as well as the time [time in many case's no one think's of or consider's, such as refitting door's after the new seal's go on that are way to thick :willy: ] Money has alway's come hard for me, but I still have had dream's so when customer's come in with dream's and an unrealistic pocket book's. I at least spend the time talking with them, educateing them on cost and as was stated before send them home with a catalog just so they can add up some of the cost themselves. Many time's we can find a common ground for what can be accomplished on there budget's and the job still get's done and they still enjoy the hobbie. We do alot more 20 to 50,000.00 dollar partial builds than anything. I have never personely had a customer pay me a 100,000.00 to build a car. Those kind of budget's don't exsist in cental Wisconsin. if they did I would not have sold the big shop recently and moved back to the one next to my rural home. We cannot all afford to build great 8 contender's but that's okay, as long as I can roll a few gear's and feel myself being set back in the seat, and can stand in my shop and see either mine or someone else's dream's comeing true I will be one happy camper.:cheers: later Larry
www.llcustomperformance.com

When there's over 80k in parts, its hard to build a complete project for 100k.
We had a couple freshly pro-built cars come in that didn't drive right, terrible handling, braking, over heating, etc. Owners spent another 15k to get it working right. My best customers are those who've had at least a couple cars built elswhere.
When I built Cadillac Attack as a home builder in 1994 in my garage, sending out only the paint, seats, I spent about 3 times what I figured, 45k.
Lots of good points in this thread.

Jeff
I agree totally about customer's who have gone some place else before and I seem to get alot of customer's who show up after they have spent a fortune at another shop and then hope I can straighten everything out. Many time's I should have said NO but I did what I could to make them realize their dream,s. And when their happy and showing off their pride and joy, Well you can not possibly buy that kind of advertizeing. :thumbsup: I just wish they would have come to me first instead of triing to get a deal.:rolleyes:
later Larry
www.llcustomperformance.com

That’s an understatement!
I think I am going to refer all potential customers to this thread !:D
It’s very interesting because this shows both sides (paying customer and builder) of the story.
I think the key word we are missing is QUALITY.
You can not place a monetary budget without the word QUALITY.
I think anyone could build a budget car on $25k-$30k.
But neither the owner nor the builder would be happy in the final product.
I know when a potential client comes to me, the very first question I ask it what their overall budget is. I then find out their likes and dislikes and design something WE BOTH like within that overall budget. Of course that number is a $+/- due to the nature of the business. I then find out what their monthly budget breakdown (what they can afford ea. month) and the project progresses at that pace until completion. Change work orders are a must or they will only make problems down the line. Whether it’s a change resulting from findings in the build process or at a customers request (something that differs from the original scope of work), those are key to everyone being on the same page financially.

Steve
Could not have said it better. It is an ongoing process of communication and shareing of information no mater what the budget is.:thumbsup: And we all have to be happy with the end result or it was not worth doing!
later Larry www.llcustomperformance.com

Hi Steve!

I saw one of your cars at Columbus and it was really nice! That was one of yours wasn't it?:D

As a paying customer and one who has done home built and pro shop partial builds, I guess it really boils down to what your customer expects for his money. In my case, when I have done the home builts I was really happy as I could say I did it myself although I always knew it could be done better at a pro shop since I don't weld and fabricate metal everyday. On the Pro shop partials it would come out great but I was never fully satisfied when I would do my part as it just never compared next to the Pro shop work! That's why on this build I decided to let the Pro shops handle everything while I supplied the cash and the vision. It has been a decision that, although expensive, in the end I am much more satisfied than if I would have attempted anything like this at home or as a Pro shop partial. Why? Because my expectation was to build as bad ass a car as I could and the only way to do that was to employ someone that had the skills that I don't possess to make that vision a reality!

John

And you didnt say hello ? :(
Yeah... we had two cars out there. The orange Nova and the Green 64.
Both of those were my vision that the customers shared. Most importantly what they were able to afford. In both cases I was happy as a builder with the end result. But in retrospect there was much more I would have loved to do to both to put them "over the top". But that oh so important line must not be crossed or I'd be working for free or worse yet building a customers car with some of my own money. That’s the hardest part I have, to determine where that line acceptably lies when dealing with a budget.

Did you see how many cars were out there?:wow:

I actually did stop for a second and looked around to see if you were around but you must have gone for a potty break or, even better, headed out to one of the "First Aid Stations" for a cold one!:lol:

John

Now I remember.... I think I was in line for a BBQ. I think I stood there for 2hr, 32 min, 16 secs while they went to kill the cow!
But Mmmm worth it !

Shoulda had a sundae!:lol:

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...s07pics060.jpg

John

:lol:
I think there is a reason there was no line there :rofl:

That's a beer in John's hand, you'll eat anything when you're drunk ....

:lol:

Come on Dad, that is lemonade Dad.

Who took the picture?

Mick

You should be able to tell by the picture quality it was taken with a sweet NIKON camera and the downward angle of the picture should tell you the guy is pretty tall. So maybe a tall and sunburnt guy from California.

build cost
 

Quality is definitely an important issue. Everyone wants a good job done fast and cheap, but you can only have two of the three. If its good and cheap, it won't be fast. If its fast and cheap, it won't be good. If its good and fast, it won't be cheap. Personally I like small shops with maybe two or three guys = less overhead. My builder/fabricator Snow's Hot Rods was 2 guys. My paint/body one guy. My interior Diamond Trim was 3 guys. In every case I would have to say, there is no substitute for experience. These guys were all older, and dare I say it, a dying breed. Each one was more artist than businessman, and when they get a project that can showcase their skills you can see the pride in their work. When you are working with a guy for 2 or three years on a project you get to know them, hopefully become friends. You'll need them later when something breaks!!!!:mad:

Paladin
I agree with everything you said includeing about becomeing friends with customer's. The only down fall with becomeing friends with the customer, It is harder to tell them that the budget and the bill just went out the window. :willy: :willy: I have realy enjoyed posting this tread and the reponse from everyone it has been very informative and I intend to print it off to show future customer's because I think it will help to show them what need's to be expected. Everybody have a great day:thumbsup:
Later Larry :cheers: www.llcustomperformance.com

one thing I always told my builder is if you have to put in 14 to 18 hours days to meet a deadline don't If we can't make it there working normal hours and eating dinner with your family at night we will just rethink our deadline instead - my friend just killed his builder to go to the salt flats this week- I called to tell him I arrange it with the salt flats to run the race next year I just don't believe 5 or more guys on a car works to produce a great driving car

Wish I had more customer's who where understanding like that. I tend to find the customer's who want it done yesterday but inturn add something new every other day. But we are working to change that, With the sale of the big 10,000 ft shop, going back to the 4000 ft shop next to my house and cutting back to just me and my main guy Rich, we will only take on one customer car at a time. When that one is finshed ,we will move on to the next one. The rest of the time we will consentrate on the stack of personel prodject car's I have aquired over the year's and put them up for sale. I think getting back to my root's and designing and building my own concept's will be much more enjoyable. :thumbsup: have a great day everyone:D :D
Later Larry www.llcustomperformance.com

I agree 100% Ron, I think the quality of the car suffers. It is funny how after the big event that the car was rushed to build for. It usually winds up back in the builders shop for longer then the bulder had it before the event fixing all the bugs and issues that could maybe have been delt with had they slowed down on the build. Shot look in the back ground of American Hot Rod, Those cars never leave.

Hi Guys,

I know for the home builder we wouldn't have access to or experience with the phases of a project, the types of work required in each phase and a reasonable work hour and/or parts costs for a project. I found a spreadsheet from another persons project that did a decent job of identifying all the areas involved. I modified it and have been using it for my project. How do you pros do it ? Do you guys have or share some type of standardize form or spreadsheet, do some of the component/materials manufactures provide some of that stuff - or does everyone just come up with their own deal ?? I can dump the actual costs from my spreadsheet and share that here - and it sounds like Marty has a spreadsheet going for his truck. That might help the young guy home builder - or - someone looking to build a bigger project with shops likes those here at Lat-G.

Jim

would be great if people can post their cars, i don't visit to frequently so i have no idea which cars and prices you are refering too, thanks...

If you guys could post the sreadsheets it would be great. They are great for "whatifs". I am starting one for our project, but having an example would be very helpful.