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Jody |
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Jody |
15 degrees is VERY low timing. I would keep bumping it up and keep a close eye on the power numbers and the plugs. I'd be willing to bet it will run best somewhere between 24 and 30 degrees under boost on 91 octane. You're probably leaving 75-100hp on the table running only 15 degrees of timing under boost.
What heatrange plugs are you running? Keep an eye on that too as you bump up the timing. If your heads use 3/4 reach gasketed plugs I'd say you will probably end up with something equivalent to an NGK BKR6ES, that should be about right for that compression and 9 psi of boost. Maybe even one step hotter at 5ES, but start with the colder ones. With my blowthrough carb setup on 91 octane I was running the distributor locked at 36 degrees, plus another 14 degrees possible with vacuum advance. The BTM box pulled it down to 27 degrees at 15 psi of boost. That's with 15 psi of boost, no intercooler, 9.25:1 compression, and water injection. Another thing, don't trust the knob on the BTM. Start the engine and run it and use a hand pump with an accurate gauge to apply pressure to the BTM at your maximum boost level, then adjust the knob to your desired timing number while watching the pointer with a timing light. Obviously, do this with your vacuum advance disconnected and at a high enough RPM so the distributor is "all in" if you have the centrifugal advance hooked up. The numbers on the knob aren't really that accurate. In the ballpark, yes, but not exact. I did this on my BTM and made new tick marks on the knob every 0.5 degrees per PSI of *actual* retard as verified by the hand pump and timing light. |
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However, the only way to tell is to make more passes and keep a close eye on the plugs. Being non-intercooled I'd keep the AFR in the 11.7-11.8:1 range. If the AFR holds steady then add timing and make another pull then check the plugs and look for signs of detonation. If things look good, add more timing and repeat as necessary. Be sure to check ALL the plugs. When I was running my RPM Air-Gap in blowthrough I recall 2 cylinders being leaner than the others so I had to tune for those two cylinders. It was 1 on each bank that was leaner than the rest. I can't remember which unfortunately. That's where the single plane will help. I'd be real interested to see what your EGT's are with 15 degrees of timing. :willy: |
Took off the filter and gained 37hp. Also it was much cooler today. It was not the filter. Car is going back to Campbell today. I have no idea what to do at this point.
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I'm still guessing there's another 50+ hp on the table with the timing so low at 15 degrees. |
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do not underestimate the power loss of no timing. Have them switch it over to the 104 fuel and put the 28 degrees in with no retard. Then you'll know where you could be with water injection. As a matter of fact, I can't believe you cannot run 30-32 degrees with that boost level and 104 octane gas.
Jody |
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Hell, I'd drive over there today if I wasn't stuck here at work. I'm only about 85 miles away from Campbell and Jody's only about another 15 miles further than me.
He would have to ride in the trunk though if he was wearing a cape and tights. :lol: |
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I think though that I'm just going to sell it and get out of the car game. It has been really bugging me to the point of where I cannot sleep at night, and I have a family and a company to run and I just cannot deal with this car anymore. |
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Mike, Sounds like you have some real good help in your neck of the woods. Focus on problems associated with your blower install. Collect your data and get with ProCharger and the Carb Shop. |
I realize I have a totally different motor (427FE, Fast EFI, etc), but 15 degrees timing is very low. I am running 38 degrees, 10lbs boost, EFI backs out 1 degree for every pound of boost. Using Diamond blower pistons. NGK BKR6ES (I think this is the same plug I am using, but for sure a 6).
Remember that engines are just big air pumps. Everything you have in the way of intake or exhaust restrictions can and will affect it to some degree. I know a guy who has an engine dyno in his garage and does a lot of testing on S/C. He just changed the hat from a lower type to a well round type and gained 100hp. Similar to this one: http://www.stevemorrisracingengines....carb-hat-1.jpg |
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You probably can't sleep because you love that car and you want it to perform like you dreamed of it performing the entire time.. If your seriously at the point of throwing in the towel, put it on a trailer and send it to someone who can tune it properly. When it's finished have them send it back. Rich |
15 degrees
15 degrees of timing not only is it not enough it's not safe it will hold to much heat and want to pop the head gaskets.From 15 degrees to a very safe 32 degrees with gas you will ****tttt yourself on the difference.Give it a try.Disconnect the boost retard completely set the total timing to 32 degrees look at the light yourself so you no for sure its there .to be sure make sure the motor is at 3500 to 4000 rpm when your setting the timing and if you have vac advance unplug it when setting.Pour some high test over 100 octane and let it rip.The fast burn head gives you a advantage of being able to run more timing if wanted.This motor on 91 should easily be able to run 30 degrees safely at 8.5 to 1 at 9 pounds.You would freak out if you saw a timing curve i run at 38 psi.Ive run as much as 40 it all depends on the motor but 15 not enough.I think weve all been where your at one time or another.When i first started making turbo engines i listened to all the turbo experts and built probally 6 different engines and burned 100's of gallons of racing fuel to only make 600hp with a tt sbc.I just about threw in the towel.It sucks but you will get it the parts are there and 500ft to the tire should be no problem at all.try the timing first.If no improvement compression it.If you like feel free to call me Have a good one Tom
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Mike, don't lose faith, your car is awsome!
We've all been ready to throw in the towel at least once. Take comfort in knowing you have lots of support here and real pro's like Tom willing to offer advice and time. Take a mini-vacation from her and jump back in, in a few weeks. I wish I knew more to help you, but I am blower-dumb. |
Don't give up, getting these cars right or even finished is stressful and a PITA. I've been wokring on mine for 3 years. The hardest part is getting the guys who do work on it to do it right and actually put the time in to get it done.
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I havent been on in quite some time, I see anything on ATI (procharger) I feel I need to chine in... I hope you dont give up on the car stick it in the corner for a week and forget about it.. sometimes it needs to be done.
Your getting alot of great advice on this Tom has some greas input as well as Jody, I have literally sold and installed hundreads of these units more in the marine field but also in automotive as well and just about any internal combustion engine i could mess with. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...endid=68611071 I have alot of pics on there you can look at. I also did some R&D for Dan Jones when he started the company for a number of years and its a great product you just need to cover some basics. All the input your getting is great I wont knock any just tell you some basics to fallow on a carb deal. 1 Boost read it after vacume. 2 Fuel boost reference before vacume make sure your at 1 extra pound fuel for every pound of boost. 3 Timing dont go too low you will hurt it worse. I like to lock out on 29 total I do not take timing out under 28 under psi your engine should be just fine. 4 Make sure your belt is tight VERY TIGHT Comon Problem! 5 Remember it takes power to turn your head unit low boost might only be making the added power to turn it hence almost equal from the begining so a slipping belt will just make it fall on its face at RPM Those are some of the top problems we see your base engine is just fine for adding psi to it and they are very easy to tune most people over think it and miss the obvious. I would go out crank the timing up make sure the belt is very tight and take it for a burn down the street Good Luck Jeff |
If things are getting that scary, maybe you should put the car in the garage and cover it up for a month or two. It wont hurt you to store it until you come to a final decision.
Selling the car sounds easy but you will stir up an entirely different set a emotions and problems when you actually do it. There's not a lot of people with the cash to buy someones dream. Last time I checked, a mans dream is worth quite a bit of money. :yes: I hope everything works out for you, Rich |
Just a thought. With all the offers of help. Why not accept 353 or Jody's help and see if one of them could spend a day with you at the dyno. Taking it to Campbell, to adjust tiing is crazy. I know those are great guys, but you have a few serious ProCharger experts throwing advice your way.
I bet it is a hell of a lot less money to pay 353s fuel then one hour in a shop. |
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I don't live far away and in the san jose area for work all the time. I'm a hvac contractor I see your a electrical contractor. I would be willing to help you out anyway I can. I was ready to give up on my car too before or go to a ls1.Sometimes a new set of eyes on a problem is a good thing. I have a simlar setup on my firebird. I did go to efi because my carb was giving me a hard time. Heres a pic of my setup.
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I understand how you probably want to drive this thing off a cliff, but you'll probably be more upset if you sell it.
Perhaps the most aggravating thing is how you thought it was going to be right from the beginning, and now you have to go back and mess with it more! But unfortunately, that can be part of the game. Heck, it seems I have to do everything twice... at LEAST twice! But the payoff is when it all comes together. Don't overlook the basics, too. Triple check everything. I've personally seen a C5 Corvette with a Vortech pick up 65 HP (yes, 65!) just by letting it cool, changing to cheap NGK plugs over platinums, and adding a few degrees of timing. Saw the same thing happen at a tune session with the SN65 Mustang. Temp, plugs, and timing added a big jump. Seeing that this is all chassis dyno, how's the clutch? You are getting some great advice from some real experts here - hang in there, and you'll be rewarded when you figure it out. And not to sound like a d***, but if you do have to sell it, you'll get more $ with a bigger dyno sheet! - KO |
Just wondering what kind of fuel system are you running?
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I agree with just about every post
don't think so hard...the car is killer (we've all been there- take a break) 15 degrees is not enough to move my lawn mower, MAJOR power killer and heat producer it is JUST an air pump- u gotta get the spark there to make the thing rev.. I would hate to see you sell the car (you have inspired a lot of us with the build) still working on my 68. I know the whole wheel issue would have been enough for me, but hang in there:thumbsup: |
Does the carb still have a choke housing on it?
If so, with that low hat, there will be a huge restriction. I've also seen 60-100 rwhp increase with a little more timing on a boosted engine. |
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As I mentioned several pages ago, even if the current and obviously major problem isn't directly related to that carb hat he could pick up quite a bit of power by going to a good hat. That ATI low hat is pretty mediocre. |
dude do not get rid of it you really dont need to spend any money at all. Try th timing in the garage and take it out for a spin this is very simple to do and you should feel the power kick in. Yu are right at the point where most of us would like to be.
stick with it stick with it stick with it stick with it stick with it stick with it |
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Mike,
Just set the car aside for a while...I too have been frustrated..it's been 14 years since mine was running. Keep your chin up, and take a break. Besides the new owner may not give me a ride. |
You have gotten 76 replys in 28 hours, that says people care. It was said before i bet some members would love to come to your house this weekend and help you with it. the only problem is they may not leave!
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Mike
You have guys here that are in magazines every month. Guys that hang out with the Big Dogs in our hobby. You have heard from a good amount of those here. Listen to them. All I can offer is this: Park it in a cool dry spot and let it sit until this passes. There are a lot of us with high 5 figures in a car that we have not even heard run yet. You are so far past the majority of us. Hang in there man, take some offers of help, or cover it and sit it in the corner. Trust me, if you sell, the guy that gets the deal will go that extra inch you need right now and have a wicked killer ride THAT YOU BUILT! |
take members help, obviously c.a.r.s did not do anyhomework setting the motor up, as any guys i talk to say the ati hats suck, you'll get it, i would just talk to them about the situation, you did not build it to have these issues, goodluck its probably still pissed at you for doing those donuts near traffic!!
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Well I've been quite, but here I go. In re-but to no doing our home work were do you get off with that. People are throw theirr 2 cents in and those ideas were look at from the start. What we have here is a packaging problem, there is no room for a taller hat over the carb. We know the hat is not helping power, also a single plan intake would work better and ducting the air inlet to get air from outside the car would be awesome, but now we are back to packaging. The other thing is Ca's crap gas we may have 91 oct but it doesn't have the btu's that other areas have so yes our numbers are not going to be those high earth shaking numbers.
Bottom line is Mike's car does have more in it, given time to tune and add some way to cool the air inlet charge it will get there as this was the car's first tuning on the Super Flow dyno. And just a note with anymore timing the engine started to pre-ignite, so we are looking strongly at water injection. Wish we had room for a intercooler. Kevin C.A.R. |
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