No love for the BBC! :willy:

If I am not mistaken
 

VIR is a long track. I know they run a short version as well. The long one will work to your advantage.

I would ditch the big block as well. 7 or 8 miles to the gallon as apposed to 20 for the LS Motor...and the LS will make the same HP.

You never said much about the BBC. Does it need a rebuild? I am assuming it is a steel head motor?

From a budget standpoint, if you do not need to rebuild the BBC you might as well use it. Adding the 6 speed is easy. Use the stock sub and opt for upgraded control arms and stick with the leafs on the rear with different bushings. You should be able to pick up a trans am rear end with factory disc brakes and sway bar pretty cheap. I think they are 8.5 10 bolts with a gear raito of 3.31 and posi. Run the stock brakes front and rear with a really good set of pads and fab up some cooling ducts.

Just like everyone else said. You are going to blow through $12,000 pretty quick. If you had more money to spend the recs would be a lot different.

This sounds like a cool project. Coming from a guy that runs road courses in a big four door Impala SS, you should be able to pull this off. :thumbsup:

Just a few things to consider.

-- C5 front brakes -- pretty cheap for parts, minimal fab work. (Probably get some donated from the Vette racer guys)
-- Herb Adams suspension stuff? Didn't he make some great 2nd gen cars back in the day (before my time)?
-- 2nd gen WS6 Firebirds had a factory disc rear, like stated earlier.
-- I think Z28 and WS6 cars may have a faster ratio steering box?
-- Plan for oil and power steering coolers.
-- Possible LT1 swap? Might be cheaper than the LSx based stuff. A mild cam, good tune, and headers should get 340-ish rwhp.

I'd look into keeping the stock front subframe (for $$ reasons) and put in good subframe connectors and a rollbar or cage. That should stiffen things up pretty good.

Good luck,
Randy

i think that a stage 2 front end from SC&C on a stock subframe is your best bet... tie it on with solid mounts and subframe conectors..

with regards to the engine, you are propably better off selling the BBC and investing in a LSx engine... most power for your money is propably a 6.0 with L92 heads, a big cam like a TSP, MS4 and a single-plane+carb... that should put you well into the 500-550 rwhp. that way you are still able to use OEM bellhousing and ls7 clutch, keeping cost down...

new f-body long tube headers are prety tight and should work in your 2.gen.. and so should an f-body oilpan with enough engine setback..

brakes should be a matter of keeping stock rear discs, and perhaps upgrading to ls1 brakes via some brackets....

interior should be a pair of light weight seats and a cage...

rims.. id get some el-cheapos for a bmw off ebay and run a good sticky tire.. and find out what to do in the rear.... sliders, tractionbars and perhaps a watts-link??

What do you guys think of this plan of action:

Work the suspension, brakes, subframe, body work, etc. first. Hang on to the BBC for now (Since I have it, and it just needs new bearings and to be put back together). Find out where my budget is when I get that sorted out, and make a decision on the engine. If I've got room, go for the LSx, if not, use the BBC.

Not a bad plan - Don't forget about the good ole Small Block. LSX engine would be preferable, but the a small block will be much lighter than the BB and still make good power for the money - just a thought.

you can get a used 6.0 for arround 500-750, and a pair fo L92 heads flow 320 out of the box and costs arround 1000, for that money you cant even get a set of AFR sbc heads.... and a 6.0 iron block is stronger than almost any sbc block out there, oem or aftermatket....

Great thread :thumbsup: Good luck I hope you kick his a$$.

Point taken - I just didn't want the old SBC to get left out - Just throwing out another option. He may run across a good deal on one - you never know. I would like to see a budget 6.0L make its way into this project - it would give me chance to learn more about them!

I really hope this thing smokes the little BMW - Good Luck

You could save a lot of cash going with an lsx motor and using a single plane intake. That would save the extra cost of FI and expensive ecm.

GM sells a 440 hp single plane crate for $4900, I'm sure you could get a good engine for half that amount.



Good luck,

Rich

Hi guys! Thanks again for all the help and encouragement! The Camaro should go into my shop this weekend for disassembly, so I can see what I'm working with.

As far as the engine goes, I've researched, and looked, and shopped, and I think I've come up with potentially the answer. The LQ4, or iron block 6.0L that has been suggested. I have seen complete motors for $1500 +/- $200, all accessories and wiring, etc. included. This is a truck motor, they make around 300/370 stock. Mild cams can get them up to 480/450 with the stock iron heads! If I have the budget, the L92/L76 combo ($1000) can put these things out to 550/470 range! That's being completely streetable, with good mileage. They'll rev out to 6800 RPM, too! Should make generous use of that T56!

So I think I've settled on going that route, as it seems to be the best budget/power option for this project. They aren't much heavier than the aluminum LS motors, either, esp. with an aluminum head swap.

So now it's just finding a deal on a complete LQ4 sometime in the next year, or so. The sooner the better, as far as fabrication goes, but I have some time before I need it.

Again, thanks to everyone! The upcoming long weekend should give me a chance to get the website up and posted, so I can chronicle the entire process starting with getting a non running car up the grade into my shop. :lol:

:lateral: FTW!

This has to be my favorite forum I've ever been to!

Wish granted!!!! Everything will be posted!

OH!

I almost forgot. Interior, paint, etc. are exempt from the budget, so anything I do for paint, or interior bits (basically, anything not functional to make it faster or work, like gauges) will not be counted against the $12K limit, so that gives me a little more flexibility.

I can't remember
 

but I am sure someone here does. In my Denali it is the 6.0 motor with aluminum heads. Maybe called a LQ9 motor. That set of heads are the same as the LS6 head except the chambers are larger thus lower compression. Great head for a boosted application.

Hop on www.ls1tech.com and go to the for sale section. lots of good parts there.

Yep, that's the LQ9. Originally, the distinction was the LQ4 had Iron heads. They later went to an aluminum head in the LQ4

GREAT THREAD. I will definately watch this to see what happens. Good luck to your friend with the M3, hes going to need it. I hope you wax the track with his a$$.

i'm pretty sure the lq9 from the escalade etc needs higher octane than an lq4 as it is higher compression,

Yep, this is true!

Outrunning European cars
 

Hi All; Been lurking here for a week or so and just saw this thread. American cars can be made to outrun most sports cars (until you reach the Mega ones ie; Farrari, Maserati, etc.). The old 76 Trans Ams like The Smoky and the Bandit car, a Camaro clone, (the dash had a plaque that said "Radial Tuned Suspension" would outrun most Porches, Jags, Mercedes 450s, etc right out off the dealers lot. You might want to look into what thier specs were. I've built numerus (Camaros, Grand prixs, Impalas, Trans Ams, etc) over the years (I'm 65)that would blow the doors off most high dollar road cars. My ride right now is a sleeper '00 S10 Xtreme with a LS1, le1 discs, Ford 8.8 3.73 posi rear w/ discs, and numerous other mods to the suspensions. Other than the cost I've got about $9.000 in it. Heres some pictures. A friend of mine has a '90 Porche 911 and I eat him alive going thru the Blue Ridge Parkway.....Jim

i think this is a cool project and you may even beat the beemer if its a long track but where will the pleasure come from when you beat "the puny 2.5l" with a 6ltr+ motor? another post said that the smoky /bandit style transams would smoke them straight off the lot but 6.6ltr compared to most sub 3 ltr, come on!! great till the first corner then its all over, the europeans realised years ago that a near 50/50 weight bias was far more important than just dropping in a massive motor, even in the sixties there were ford falcons with289's getting whupped on tracks by 1.3 ltr mini coopers , there is probably not much weight difference between the beemer and camaro so should the camaro keep a full interior too? please dont think i am trying to start an argument here as i am not, i would much rather have the camaro , i just think it strange that everyone thinks the best idea is to throw the biggest motor at it and hope for long straights, its a massive prop to german engineering that it will take a bigass engine to beat their little one!(no, i am not german!!lol) i remember seeing on tv an m5 fourdoorsedan annihilating an 03 vette round a formula 1 track, americas best handling sports car getting owned by a 5 seater sedan! but the 07 would do better though, as its a 427! an even bigger motor to make up for a lack of balance.

Well, that's the root of the argument, and the bet. Can I make an American Muscle car become a sports car for 12 grand? The M3 is a sports sedan, it's fast in the corners, but he can maybe hit 160 with a tail wind. But he's 500+/- lbs lighter than the Camaro. ~3200 vs ~3700. Doesn't seem like a big difference, but it's actually 16% heavier! Plus, it's ancient in terms of handling, and not weight balanced. There are a lot of things that I need to compensate for with an American muscle car. There's no way in hell his M3 would hang with a 6.0L Camaro in a Drag race. He knows this as well as I do. I'd destroy him in the straights with a 350 any day of the week. and he'll make up all that time in the corners, which is what we are trying to stop.

I brought the Big Block home today. I'm tempted to use it again. It's....imposing, to say the least. :D

Imho, stick with the Ls engine... there are alot of things that get easier with that 6.0, clutch and flywheel are oem GM... and are cheap.. a 5-600 Hp clutch for a BBC costs real money.. i mean if you are going to race it anything less than a mcleod street twin or tilton for that BBC is waisting cash, a stock LS7 corvette clutch will get you home in first go... a bbc to t56 bellhousing is spendy! a Junkyard LS/t56 isnt.... heads for a BBC is upwards of 3 grand, for that money you can get L92 heads, a big cam, single plane intake, MSD ignition box and gaskets to perform the swap... throw in alittle extra and you can get an LQ9 longblock...

but i sure understand where you are comming from with that BBC, its what am running in my 32 roadster... and just because it looks cool

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s...4/IMG_0008.jpg

I have the T56 and a McLeod street twin 1200 Hp holding clutch to go with it!

But I'm going with the LQ4 for the Camaro. I just need a new project for the Caddy Big Block at somet point! It's just too cool for words.

Very cool project, always good to see a late 2nd gen getting built.

My dad and I are building a 79 with much the same goals, less emphasis on street manners, though. Like nearly everyone else, I would turn the BBC for some cash and go either LS or small block. We're going with an aluminum headed 377, and will be moving to a LQ4 after we find the breaking point with it.

A lot of progress can be made on a tight budget with the stock subframe, the suspension forum at www.nastyz28.com is a great resource for info.

I've got tons of pictures and all the specs for our build at http://www.acmeautopartsonline.com/camaro. Can't wait to see the progress on yours, and it tearing up some German meat!

I think it's awesome what you are doing! It looks pretty good to me!

Do you have the truck arms in yet?

Yeah, all the suspension fab is done. We're working on getting the rest of the minor sheet metal work (trunk, dash, etc.) done, then it will be on to paint. Here's a shot of it all together..

http://www.acmeautopartsonline.com/g...maroweb124.jpg

It's about like stuffing 23 pounds of potatoes in a 5 pound sack. We'll find out how good of an idea doing all that work was eventually :lol:

That truck arm setup really looks like the ticket! i doubt there is a cheaper full race solution for your car... it does however require a fair bit of cutting and welding....

Hmm... The cutting and welding doesn't bother me. Hot Rods to Hell has a full truck arm setup available for the 2nd Gen, I think they come in at $1900 for everything.

You guys really like the truck arm for track duty, then? Even over a 4-link?

I like it although I think some are concerned with the unsprung weight it provides along with trying to run exhaust.

John

Using an iron block LSX will save you little in weight. If you've got a good BBC at a good price, use it.

LS1:

457.6 lbs, LS1 auto; 497.2 lbs, LS1/LS6 manual

BBC & SBC

From Chevy2only; http://www.chevy2only.com/index.php...N_position=54:8

Weights are from carb to oil pan with HEI dist, harmonic balancer, and iron water pump.

SMALL BLOCK
All iron small block 520 lbs.
Alum heads w/iron small block 480 lbs.
All alum motor 389 lbs.

BIG BLOCK
All iron BB 754 lbs.
Alum heads with iron block 660 lbs.
All alum BB 501 lbs.

My brother recently picked up LS out of 98 Camaro, with a cam, upgraded rod bolts, headgaskets, etc, plus 4l60 trans, for 2600.00 Engine trans, wiring computer, etc everything for 2600.00

Point being, the power, weight of LS engine, are hard to beat, and out there if you shop it around.

We picked it mostly because of the simplicity of the setup. There is adjustability, having two positions in the front and being able to affect it with blocks, but to be able to really fine tune the car, a 3-link seems to be the way to go. We're just sticking to the KISS principle, coming into this with basically zero chassis tuning experience.

A fair bit, yes :lol:

http://www.acmeautopartsonline.com/g...amaroweb42.jpg

http://www.acmeautopartsonline.com/g...amaroweb45.jpg

On the weight issue, we never weighed them side by side, but I would be willing to bet that the arms, shocks, and crossmember don't weigh much more than the factory leafs did. We got all our parts from Stock Car Products. Their arms are $225 each, and it says the bushing style ones weigh 19 pounds each.

On the exhaust, pretty much the only possibility is a side dump. There's room around the rear end for tailpipes, but there's just no clearance around the arms to get pipe back there. We will be running oval tubing with the low profile SpinTechs, mounted solid to the frame rails and body, with a slash cut exiting in front of the tire NASCAR style.

I'll have to see if the Hot Rods to Hell kit needs that much cutting. That's getting too close to purpose built race car trim for the conditions, methinks.

Do you have a line on the LQ4?

There are a few out there, but they're all pretty far away. I'm not pressed to get one now, so I'm just casually looking right now.

I assume though that if a "deal of a lifetime" LS1 stumbled your way, then you would get it? In other words, is the LQ4 a compromise or is there some particular reason you want to get that, other than cost?

I wouldn't pass up a deal of a lifetime LS1 for sure! I like the LQ4 for the 4" bore, but I can get power from an LS1 as well. The LQ4 with the L92 heads and the L76 intake with a mild cam is around 550 HP, but it's also 150-200 lbs heavier than the all aluminum LS.

Why, do you have one? :unibrow: