Gotcha. It appeared the contents of your message were directed towards me.:thumbsup:

Oh... no no no... its all good Matt.

You are right... it does look as I was specifically drawing the point towards you individually. That wasnt the intention... and I realize that my general sarcasm isnt known to all amoungst the masses. ;)

See my comments or questions within the quote, it's easier. Thanks for taking the time as well.

Thanks again, I agree with everything stated. (Not that you were looking for agreement. :shrug) I was very curious mostly about the pre-load vs. initial clearance idea. We never had good luck with pre-load. Then again all applications are different. I guess we should quit boring the rest of the board.

:cheers:

Thanks for your reply as well CarlC. This is exactly why I raised my first question about the delta cup to cone being the only verification question. We prefered doing our bench checks vertically as you stated, but also as you stated it is not always possible. Thus, the need for the custom fixtures and testing. Things most backyard mechanics don't have the luxury of. Thanks for the info. Gotta love this stuff.

From a practical standpoint with field-matched parts, you never will. Some basic thermal expansion calcs + a bit more help get you close for an initial BEP. I'm working on one now for a Komatsu haul truck (the mega-sized variety) where the OE spec for BEP is absolutely stupid, about 4X more than what it should be, and what has proven NOT to work in the field. But proving it to the OE of the traction motor is another story. But, the OE gets $Millons$ every year for rebuilds.

Bearing life is maximized when a slight preload (micron level) is applied. The hard part is getting it set right, and then having equal shaft and housing thermal expansion so that the preload stays under control. The preload reduces the chances of rolling element slippage, where instead of true rolling motion the rolling element skids across the raceway. This is, usually, not much of a problem for us. But imagine the ACC/DEC on a 15K RPM 40-Taper machine tool spindle. 15K - 0 RPM in a second is tough to control from an inertia standpoint and requires multiple levels of preload, temperature, lubrication, and warmup control.

Preload, both negative and positive, requires clamping of the inner and outer rings. For traditional front axles using TRB's the cones are clamped via the adjustment nut, and the outer rings/cups the hub. For the rear axle bearings discussed, it requires the inner rings be pressed on together and clamped in place, often using another sweated on ring for retainment. The outer ring(s) are held in by a retainer plate. For the rear TRB's discussed here they are a clearance (+) design.

Always interested.

Yep, Copperhead. I am familiar with SKF's device's. A few years back I was involved in a study that utilized that device, as well as a bunch of other COTS. It actually turned into a full blown study on the interpretation of high speed vibration data. We also had a full compliment of Andre' vibration equipment... displacement, seismic, velocity transducers and an array of different accelerometers. Neat stuff.


If the retainer is designed correctly... yes. Or if the bearing design is that like a set 20... yes. But, it also relies on the design of the retainer. If you take into account of the tolerance stacking and growth factors I am sure that it could hold 0.001-0.0005" with relative ease. The race diamention's are another factor... obviously. End gap aligment, axial loading and diamentional tolerance are also big players here too.

Bearing theory and extensive application experience show that a "line-to-line" setting (with no endplay or preload) or a slight preload at the operating temperature provides maximum performance and bearing life. The appropriate mounted bearing preload at normal operating temperatures depends on the bearing load. Under radial loading, a tapered bearing is subjected to both radial force and force in the axial direction.

Then again... were talking about street cars. Temperature fluctuations and an uncontrolled environemnt make it difficult to maintain this level of scrutiny.

[QUOTE=chicane;140528]Yes.

Chicane:

This is not mean as a challenge as much, as I am interested in learning more about this topic.

Could you elaborate further about whom you speak about, and what cars do they drive. Also, what are they doing to put that kind of stress on their cars?

You may be referring to yourself. Since I don't know who you are, I am interested in your background in an attempt to understand the boundaries where a full floater would be necessary, vs. being a fun extra to have on a car.

I look forward to your answer.

Regards,

Ty

PM sent.

PM Sent.

C'mon guys No Fair! LOL Anyway thanks Chicane and CarlC foor participating in this discussion. You guys have confirmed alot of what I was thinking and have given me more to think about. I hope some other people have benefited as well. Most have to spend thousands on school to get this type of info. Good Stuff.

I would also be interested in the type of car or cars you have Chicane. I did a search and didn't yield anything.

Later,

No problem. Bearings are how I make a living so I'm happy to help.

Click on the sig below.

CarlC:

I enjoyed your web site.

Thanks for taking the time to put it together, your insight and explanations were clear and concise.

My car also has the, "RED", interior. It has been accented with Black as you pointed out, the red parts a fairly difficult to obtain.

Good luck with the refinement of your car, it is really sharp.

Once again thanks and take care.

Best Regards,

Ty O'Neal

Oh... just a simple little 67 F-body.

I bet! LOL From what I've seen on here it's probably propelled by some 20" linear drivers tuned to about 18Hz to run silent to the human ear. :thumbsup:

Not a lot of time to even breath these days, but I need a short distraction so I'll add a few cents. I ran a Moser Circle track style floater setup (9" based) on my (er..... Ty's) 69 street/track car for a number of years. When I sold the car I took it off, and literally threw it in the trash. Not because it was a floater, which I like and would use again, but rather because the quality of the floater setup itself was not good at all. First track day I ran it, merely two very short sessions not even at speed, a seal failed. No spares, end of day, which honestly was okay because it was ROASTING hot that day (remember that day, Carl at BuRP? actually broke the engine that day too but didn't know until later, which is why Ty has a bitchin bowtie block and full forged goodies now...). After a while, the drive plate to axle spline mate really loosened up, lots of backlash and the setup would rattle pretty good on the street/low speeds, etc, not under cruise or power, but still annoying. It was also VERY much a PITA to adapt the setup to typical street wheels, etc, I needed to turn down the outer hubs and dust shields to fit in the Kinesis wheel registers, and there was a lot more with brakes, etc. In the end, I was completely frustrated with it all, but again, this was due to the lack of quality of the components and the additional work to get it all to work in my application, NOT the design superiority of the floater concept (it IS a superior design, no question).

Then, over a year ago, we built a custom setup for a customer who supplied the floater snouts, hubs, etc. REALLY nice stuff, significantly higher quality than the Moser pieces. If memory serves, he used all Super Speedway stuff from Speedway Engineering, I'd have to check my notes which I do not have in front of me. When the time comes to build the next track car (which might be a while given my current status), I'll very most likely use this stuff too. For a weekend driven track car, or perhaps better stated, a car with license plates on it (Chicane excluded from this designator, btw), the semi-floater stuff such as the big bearing Ford ends are pretty darned capable and reliable, especially when used with disc brakes to hold the wheel on in the event of axle failure. If you do a lot of high speed track or open road stuff, it's probably a good idea to consider these (as well as all other smart safety features, such as fire system, etc). Above all though, do your homework on which system to use or you too could end up unhappy.

Mark

Tom: I got your e-mail, I'll shoot something out in a day or two.

=======================================

Mark:

Good to see your still out there. I hope everything is ding well for you.

Is this the link regarding the Full Floating Rear that you would be referring to?

http://www.1speedway.com/Floater_Rear_Ends.htm

http://www.1speedway.com/axle_endplay.htm

Take care, and keep me updated on your new projects.

Best Regards,

Ty O'Neal

Hey Homie... just seeing you bang out this little note breathes a sigh of relief for a few of us. No worries mate... I wont be feet dry until Friday.

106* in the shade and 142* on the track. It was a war of attrition.

I was bummed that your car broke. I wanted to go for a ride!