Thanks for the answers Steve. Like many other industries, the manumatic was tried years ago (like 50-60) but people like you have brought it into the 21st century with modern electronics (and brainpower).

Like many on this thread, I am exploring the present capabilities and plan on using the Shrifter/Auto setup on an upcoming project. How much weight does the Gear Vendors add ?

Thanks again Steevo !!

Thanks

Where was I. Oh yeah. Weight for a 4L80E is 180 pounds. Not sure how much a T56 and clutch weigh. Gear ratios are 1:1 for 3rd and .67 for OD.

Steve,
How many up/down shifts do you count in the video you posted?

Not very many. That wa strictly a second gear course. 4? 5?

i have a tt set up and i can tell you the first 2 gears in the t-56 seam use less they go by so fast , my foot is off the gas more than on the gas untill 3rd comes along and then the car starts hauling i can say the 6th gear is great with a 3.90 rear gear on the highway 80mph and 2100 rpm you can't beat that. so if you want a good quater mile go auto.

Car and Driver has an article about the new Ferrari 599gtb. It has the same engine as an Enzo but with 40 fewer hp and weighs 700lbs more. Its 0-60 time 3.3 and 1/4 mile 11.2.

Same performance time as the Enzo. 700lbs more, 40 hp less? How?????

Answer. Paddle shifter and preset launch program(traction control). Technology works.

Yup. And the latest Porsche Tiptronic Turbo is faster that the manual car. Automatics have always benefitted from better torque multiplication and no loss of rpm between shifts. But now, the power is getting through as well. That is mostly due to advancements in torque converter design. The Ferrari still uses a clutch, but the Turbo has a converter.

We developed torque converters in conjunction with Pro Torque that are specifically engineered for pro-touring cars. That means short tires and overdrive. Called MuscleDrive, our converters start with high efficiency turbines and impellors, custom built stators, high surface area, ceramic impregnated lock up clutches and race grade parts such as billet steel front covers, torrington bearings, anti-balloon plates and more.

The typical "street/strip" converter will yield slippage and power loss under part throttle application. Street/strip converters are spec'd for best WOT performance, but ignore the rest of the powerband. They're also cheap which means that they start with turbines and impellors from a 1980-something Oldsmobuick. Lock up versions have clutches that are typically no wider than a shoelace. OE style narrow clutches are only useful for light load highway cruising.

MuscleDrive converters achieve high coupling efficiency at a very low rpm. Stall speeds are calibrated for part throttle performance. The wide area ceramic impregnated lock up clutch can be applied over a wide rpm range. The lock-up clutch is strong enough to stay applied at WOT. And when you take your foot off the gas to dive into a turn, then engine and trans are directly coupled in lock up, so the converter tugs on the motor--just like a manual. I could throw you in the passenger seat, blind-fold you and tell you that you're driving in a car with a sequential manual.

Yeah....Technology is great. :willy:

Q:
 

With these new Coverters does it change the Hp Loss compared to prior Auto trans built?
Nearly every1 thats running a 'NA LSx Non drag only' car has a manual
I think it would be cool to have 6-8 speed Auto behind say an Na Ls2/7 600-650 hp
What would be the loss compare dto a Manual Steve?
thanks

Yes. Absolutely. It is a question of coupling efficiency. If engine speed and transmission input shaft speed are the same, 100% coupling efficiency is said to be achieved. AKA direct drive. With a manual transmission, 100% coupling efficiency is achieved as soon as you take your foot off the clutch pedal. After that, the only loss is attributed to parasitic loss through the drivetrain. Ride that clutch and you get slippage.

For most of the automatic transmission's history, lock up converters did not exist. More importantly, converter design has been historically poor. A 1967, '77 or 1983 Oldsmobuick could barely muster 80% coupling efficiency. The engine spins faster than the transmission. The result is slippage. Like everything else, current software technology has made the difference in turbine and impellor design. (The turbine is connected to the input shaft and the impellor, aka pump is connected to the engine). Called Computational Fluid Dynamics, the software has allowed major auto maufacturers to achieve 90% plus coupling efficiency BEFORE lock up. It is not a major leap of faith. It is easy to accept that the converter from a 98 or 2002 vehicle is more efficient than one from an older car. Manufacturers spent ginormous sums of money to improve efficiency in the name of gas mileage. The aftermarket cannot afford this technology, so we start with OE turbine and impellor cores.

Your average street/strip bargain converter is still based on cheap-to-buy old fashioned (pre-CFD) cores. If your converter manufacturer starts with a slightly more expensive late model core, you take advantage of the much higher coupling efficiency rates. Higher coupling efficiency even makes it possible to run a lower stall speed. Power is getting through during the stall and acceleration phases, so it is less necessary to "slip" the engine up to a higher rpm where it makes more power. That high stall slippage feels horrible in a pro-touring car. Start with the right core and a lower stall, and it is possible to acheive a nice tight felling converter without hurting performance. And all this occurs BEFORE the final phase known as lock up where 100% coupling efficiency is achieved.

Once the converter is locked up, you achieve 100% coupling efficiency--just like a manual. The trick is to MAINTAIN 100% coupling efficiency by increasing the clutch surface area and using ceramic impregnated materials. Old school lock up converters have a clutch surface about as wide as your shoe lace. They only lock up under light load circumstances such as highway cruising.
But what if you make more power or want to use the lock up clutch over a wider range--say a winding road? With a heavy duty clutch, you can lock up the converter and leave it locked up without shear. I even use my lock up clutch to induce a small amount of engine braking--which is nice, since you never have excessive drag. These converters are especially useful for pro-touring cars where part throttle operation is key, where most street/strip converters are only spec'd for WOT performance.

Automatic transmissions get a bad rap for excessive parasitic loss when in fact, it is a question of parasitic loss PLUS slippage. While marginally greater parasitic loss is true, much of that parasitic loss is in fact the result of converter slippage. Start with high efficiency blades and augment them with a heavy duty clutch and the numbers are much closer. The difference can be hypothetically zeroed out by a converter's torque multiplication and the fact that there is no power interruption between shifts.

You won't be the guinea pig. I have three development cars at my shop, and I've already sold a few of these converters. There is no magic here. As with everything else pro-touring, we're just taking advantage of modern technology that has trickled down from the OE's. I work with Pro-Torque to make sure that you get a high efficiency, high quality part. They thought I was nuts, so I brought them a pro-touring car and showed them the importance part throttle "on the gas/off the gas" operation. When I send in an order for a Twist converter, they stop, put away their drag car "WOT" philosophy and engineer a converter for a pro-touring car.

I hope that all makes sense. If you need further clarification, be sure to give me a call.

One more thing..:faint: ..By geting all of the slop out of the converter, you get that nice "chugging" direct drive feel that makes a manual transmission so entertaining.

Steve, how does the loss in acceleration while shifting a manual compare with a properly set up auto? Any time comparisons of like .25 to .5 seconds between gears when acceleration stops?

I don't care to guess. Any answer will put us squarely into bench racing territory. Plus the answer is entirely vehicle and driver dependant.

thanks Steve for the thorough run down

well with all that said, i have decided to install the twist machine paddle shifter in my charger... i have thought about all the aforementioned material, however realizing all this the auto vs manual comparison also comes down to cost, the paddle shifter really doesn't cost that much for the performance you get. I will be installing the shrifter in my charger this week and i will post all pro's/ cons on the unit. i believe the auto trans has needed a product like this for a long time. you get the best of both worlds and above and beyond all Reliablity!!!! we all have missed a gear here and there. well guys i will let you know how it all turns out. I think the steve has a premier product here! PETE

Well.....

If I could get a 6 speed in a golf cart, I'd play more golf. I'd still suck at it, but I'd play more.

I might get a paddle shifter and keep the 6 speed, just to fool em.

That makes me wonder, how hard would it be to convert a manual shifter for use on an auto by keeping the gate on it and have it control an electronic shifter ala paddle shifter. With a manual valve body, what would be the difference except for no use to hit the 3rd pedal (unless that was a neutral switch). hmmm

The biggest limitation to that design is the use of electro-mechanical actuators to perform the shifting. Movement of actuator motors take time whereas a true manumatic relies entirely on electrons--no friction to overcome or rod movement. You tap an electric paddle switch. It sends a signal to a computer which, in turn, directly hits the electric shift solenoids.

The other major distinction is safety. With an all electronic system, the computer can disallow a shift signal input if you shift erroneoulsy (i.e. downshift into 1st at 100mph)

The computer is the heart of the system--not the shifter. The shift mechanism is merely an input device--just like the keyboard or mouse on your PC. On a true manumatic, the detent on the side of the transmission never moves. It stays in the "D" position.

I understand this, but what is it that people love about manual transmissions? Bangin gears. If you'd make a "4 speed, manual gated" auto shifter, you could accomplish the same thing. Row it if you want to, other wise leave it in 4th and it will shift for you. You could even have the paddle shifters as a second input once it's in 4th. And I'm not talking about a mechanical actuator other than the lever hitting a switch.

Am I the only guy that likes this idea??? Heck, I'd spring load a 3rd pedal and never worry about crunching into gear or ruining a clutch while powershifting.

In a duality mindset... I really like the idea behind a manumatic... and there have been a few comments that pretty much sell it for what it is.

On a N/A induction, a manual is the ticket. That is just something I enjoy.

On boost... auto/manumatic... all the way. Especially if you see more street time than you will ever on the track. But even then... the electronics and converter technology make it work... just as you would want, on the street or on the track.

I think that just having the ability to effortlessly go between the two modes... makes this a no brainer to me. I think a manumatic would be the way to go. And if you spend any time in traffic... you will thank yourself later... that is for sure. And all of this coming from a manual transmission guy !!

Good luck with the decision.

i understand all the emotional arguments about a manual tranny... and for benchracing purposes i agree wholehartedly... but on a turbo car.. it would be lunacy to install a manual tranny simply for he fact that every time you lift the acceletaror and depress the clutch your turbo is loosing revs and you are loosing boost... i know that a blow off valve can help out some.. but yoy are still venting energy into thin air, and not towards the pavement.. heck even supras are faster on the drag strip with powerglides than with high dollar 6 speed trannys and carbon clutches...

and if you plan to drive the car arround it is much.. much nicer to enjoy the ride in trafic than perpetually working the clutch because the guy in front of you is 1 mph slower than your car is running in first gear at idle.. (and with a clutch that can handle a TT engine, you will propably do real damnage to you knee that way)

If it were a turbo car I would say auto, but manual it is if N/A.

?
 

What if u have a 750 hp big block up front ?

Steve...with your new style "protouring" converters how does exceleration feel from a dead stop as compared to a regular street/strip converter?? Does it flash up at all??? If you did like to go to the strip at all does it make it hard to get into the cams powerband??

All converters are built to spec, so if one were to demand a looser converter, I wouldn't refuse. But as a rule of thumb, converter stall runs about 500 rpm lower than your typical street/strip converter. Coupling efficiency is greater across the board as well, so flash stall rpm tends to run lower as well. Your drivetrain will tug harder on the engine.

All this should theoretically hinder E.T. and 60 foot times, but given te traction limitations of the typical pro-touring tire, the tighter converter can help overall.

A more specific response would require a detailed conversation with you regarding vehicle specs. Feel free to give us a call.

Thanks
/Steve

Thanks for the info Steve....yeah when I go to the track I put on big n littles so im sure it would slow the car down. But im sure it would drive a whole bunch better with the tighter converter. If I could just stay away from the damn dragstrip it would be an easy choice!

Im doing both. The motor in my current project is using both front and rear motor plates to mount it into the A/M frame. I will swap between the 4L80E and T-56, and with the motor supported on both ends, tranny swaps get real easy under the lift. Im betting I could do it in a couple of hours by myself.

I want the T-56 because its a ton of fun to manually shift a hi HP car (Procharged 542ci pump gas combo....approx 900 HP). But, I will also be making some serious 1/4 mile passes, and want the increased performance and consistency that the auto will have. Frame goes into the race car shop on Jan 3 for the 4-link and watts setup install. The minitub on the body is also underway to make room for the rear tires (the rear seat is going to be pretty narrow).

Question for someone who knows the answer to this. We have to cut the floor out of the car to get it onto the A/M frame. Then, with the drivetrain installed, put a floor back in leaving the required clearance in the tunnel. We would like to use the larger (physically) of the 2 tranny setups to do this. One will be the 4L85E and the other will be the T-56 on a McLeod modular bellhousing.

Which setup is the larger one?

Gotta say 4l80E, I'm old and my knees are older!

OLD thread
 

how old is this... it was posted on 09-04-2005, 10:38 PM please some moderator lock this or add "old thread" in the title... i mean if the guy hasnt chosen a tranny yet, he propably never will

I chose a T56 a long time ago.

I'm going with a built 4L80E and the Shrifter. Easy choice with all that power. Once you get over the 750hp mark, The baddest T-56 will not hold up for long. I guess it depends on how hard you are planning on driving it. I was torn myself, until I found that Shrifter. Mine's still not together but I can't wait to try it.

You have 800 horsepower in your car as a street driver, or this is the plan ya?

My question is what guy in his right mind would not want to downshift that kind of power? Go with the t-56.

#1 and biggest negative of auto - can only downshift 1 gear at a time.

with that kinda power ur only going to need to downshift one...

downshifting two gears with that power wuld be useless... (read as: sliding sideways into a tree) :wow:

Race cars have 3 pedals !! :thumbsup: So go for the T56

Well, I thought I knew which I was going to vite for prior to reading through this great thread; however, I realized where I stand on this matter once I was educated on what the Shrifter Kit is. I am new to the forum and do not have true race experience, but I will add my 2 cents and experiences.

Lets start with my daily driver; 2005.5 Audi A4 Quattro with the 2.0T. The tranny is a six-speed Tiptronic. The tranny is an automatic which can be manually shifted by moving the shifter to the right from the Drive position. The manumatic tranny makes cornering very simple. Begin braking, manually downshift to the gear you want for coming out of the turn, and continue on by putting the tranny back in Drive for the small stuff. I personally really like the manually shifted automatic.

I took a defensive driving course about a year and a half ago while in a DoD training course. This course was taught by a contracted group of racing instructors (I'm not sure exactly what company they work for). I thought I knew about driving until we hit the road course... For everyday life with driving in the rain and whatnot ABS is awesome, but it does not come close to holding it's own with Thresh hold braking a non-ABS car. Maybe I'm just not skilled enough with a manual tranny, but I found it much easier to make significantly better lap times with the Auto over the Manual on the courses with tons of turns. (Plus it was much easier to control the car going through the turns while being able to maintain both hands on the wheel.) And the auto we were driving wasn't even a Manumatic.

Well, like I said, I am by know means an expert on this situation; just two pennies from a newbie. I know I would have never picked the automatic over the manual until I drove a Manumatic.

Mastershift
 

Just curious if anybody knows about Mastershift's new paddle shift set up. I think it was debuted at Sema for the "manual fanatics". Although the clutch pedal is not deleted for those who strive on the " 3 pedal way or no way" it does eliminate the manual thrashing gears through the console and putting them up at the wheel. Any thoughts? I heard it may be released some time in January. I personally like the idea of the paddle shifted auto (attributing I guess getting older or getting lazier) and twist machines product is right up there against todays auto technology, but I already have a manual 6 speed and debating on going opposite.
Dave

You nailed it. The two benefits of a paddle shifted transmission--any paddle shifted transmission--is speed and focus. A paddle shifter simply frees you up to concentrate on throttle, brake, steering. Car control. And virtually all paddle shifted transmissions allow you to change gears faster than the time required to push in a clutch pedal, row a gear, and release the clutch pedal. And don't forget to add in the time it takes to take your hand off the wheel and reach for that shifter handle. It's just another example of computers enhancing man's capability. Superhuman.
That visceral sensation of manually yanking back and forth on a stick is powerful and undeniable. I love it too. Then feet from my desk are two paddle shifted autos, one Richmond 6, one T-56 and two Harley Davidsons. Out in the parking lot is a paddle shifted dual-clutch Audi. I enjoy them all. Shifting the Richmond 6 or T56 is like reaching down into the transmission and grabbing the shift forks.
But it can be hard to admit that as amateur drivers, manually changing gears has its drawbacks. And it's not just shift time. Consider power loss during coupling interrupt. And don't forget that occasional missed shift or non shift due to hesitation or confusion. But all that gets washed away by the visceral sensation of manually changing gears--espcially on a message board. After seven years of making and selling paddle shifters and transmission controllers, I've heard it all. And I take it in stride.

To me it sounds (and looks) like this: "Man, I'm keepping mu typewriterr. No computerised word processor forr mee. Ever!! When I push the keys on my yypewriter, I feel each letter's arms swing forward snd mechanically thwack the paper. And then it smaks back home. What a feelingg. I feel connected to te paper. Typewriters fprever! Wprd peocessors are for girlz and handicaped people. Typewriters forever.

That analogy sounds pretty silly, but it provides some perspective. Desktop computers and word processing software killed the typewriter. Paddle shifters are simple input devices--not unlike the keyboard or mouse in front of you. It's a tool connected to a computer. And a computer is a device that simplifies or multiplies our abilities as humans. Once you get past that notion, you might see yourself entering a corner faster, shifting without hesitation and focusing on the perfect line. I do. Paddle shifters are fun. It's just a different kind of fun.

Disclaimer: Twist Machine provides paddle shifters for Mastershift.

No other company has made more progress towards adapting mechatronic manual technology for hot rods. And it's been a long road. Mastershift has spent years refining the process. Mechatronic manuals have been around since the late 80's (in racing) For OE applications, where every car that rolls off the assembly line is identical, the technology has been perfected. But in the world of hot rods, every car is unique. Making a product that can be adapted to a wide range of applications is the challenge. Adaptation is the key word. Mastershift has done it. And I think the price is reasonable. Big progress has been made in just the last six months. If the Mastershift system interests you, give them a call. Be prepared to spend some time discussing how the system works and how it installs to see if it fits your needs.

Steve,
Thanks for your input on my Nov. post. I have contacted them since then and have reviewed the info they sent me on mechanics of operation, installation and trouble shooting issues they have had in the past. I was just a little leary after seeing a certain mustang not perform very well through the mastershift unit, but rumor has it that the driver was not used to or prepared for this shifting operation. Yes, I agree the cost is reasonable. Right now Im waiting on some info from them on there harness.
Thanks again,
Dave

And think about that car's engine. A twice blown small block has a less than predictable power curve. It's a moving target as far as calibration is concerned. A runaway freight train. If you're seriously considering a mechatronic manual, keep outside variables to a minimum. A torquey, predictable engine with a wide flat power curve and the right final drive ratio will go a long way.

That might blow your mind a little. Gotta equate shift time to rpm and power band. A 500 rpm window for shift time is fine. If the engine spins right to redline that window becomes critical. When a human misses a shift, or shifts too slow, the human says "Oops, my bad. Let's go to Starbucks and get a couple of double shot latte's". When an expensive computer performs in the exact same way, the human says "You #@$% piece of $%$#, I want my money back!"

An SMG BMW shifted faster than 99.9% of its human owners, but the system was criticized, nonetheless, for not shifting quick enough.

I always enjoy talking about this stuff. Sorry for blabbering.

Thanks Steve,
I appreciate the feedback and trust me I dont feel your blabbering.
Your expertise in this field weather it be auto or manual is great knowledge and I always look forward to reading posts that you chime in on.
Looking back about 3 yrs ago when I was thinking about redoing the camaro, my thoughts were simple upgrades and a repaint until I came across this forum about 2yrs ago. Dam u Lateral G LOL
Thanks again Steve,
Dave