Unlike most people here I use my real name. Anybody who knows me will tell you I am pro buying US built cars and blast every magazine for being Japanese biased. I will never own a Japanese car simply as I feel they are engineered to last a specific amount of time and that is it. Nobody can look at a Japanese part and tell me it wasn't engineered to just do its job and get by at it. US mfg's on the hand were building alternator brackets that have lasted 40 years and can support the weight of the car itself. Cars should be bought on what you want not what some biased magazine tells you and the field would be even.

I totally agree with the perception concept. Where are all these 300k mile Japanese cars??? Were are all the 10 year old Lexus and Infiniti's??? Try and kill a Chevy Cavalier? You can't but the problem is it is ugly as hell and the cosmetics fall apart and that is what consumers see.

GM has refused to use quality interior parts heck they still insist on throwing the same knobs from a $10k car into a $65k car. Consumers notice this. You can't hide quality of leather in a Caddy compared to a BMW.


I want nothing more to see the big three pull through but after watching the hearings I sadly have to say they just still do not have a plan for a change. Where is the presentation of the REAL new cars that will appear to the public. They wasted their time and money on the Vettes, Camaro, and Challangers. These are not what will pull them out, the next Ford Taurus will.

Perception is also their fault. They do not advertise that GM produces so many fuel effecient cars. Can anybody here name the cars that Ford makes besides the Mustang? Besides the Malibu what is GM other cars???
We are car guys in the Industry who can't answer this let alone the 18year old who is next in line to make these purchases.

It does not look good and hope all will take action as I did. Look at all the posts today, this should be the top post and everybody should be sending off emails. Problem is people do not care. They only care about themselves and that means they can but a car somewhere else. Sorry state of affairs.

I am on your side but again it does not look good!!

aaand this morning all three executives showed up in their private jets at a cost of $22,000 PER COMPANY. the price of a first class ticket? 800 bucks.

These guys JUST DONT GET IT. Dont stand on a street corner in an armani suit with your hand out. Start ACTING like you're hurting and people might believe it. Loan or no, There is NO EVIDENCE that any of the big three have a plan to get themselves out of the habits that got them where they are. You dont give money to a crack addict that hasn't been to rehab. These guys are just going to blow whatever we give them. Bad businesses deserve to die. Another company or companies will rise up to take their place. Sometimes you have to cut off a rotting limb so the body can survive. It hurts, but it's what has to be done.

Bingo.....somebody will buy them and make them profitable if in fact they fail. Only problem is it probably won't be an American company. Hell it's hard enough to get an American beer now.

exactly, everyone says we need to bail gm out to protect their hard working employees, which doesnt make any sense because GM execs do not care one bit about their workers, they will ship every single assembly job to any country in the world in a hearbeat. yet people are loyal to the gm brand.

You looking for a career change Tony? I wonder if we could round up enough voting stock to get you to the top. :)

Drives me crazy!!
Being in business for myself I hate seeing bailouts- no one comes to bail me out -sink or swim. I realize I'm tiny business, this is global business with a lot of jobs on the line. Sorry for the people involved on this site on a personal level, I know no one else in the auto industry. Hope it work out for you guys.

IMO I see a major hurdle selling any of the Big 3 if it goes the way of Chapter 11, which I bet it won't. The automotive unions... who in there right mind would want to buy into dealing with that??? They'll be waiting in the back ground for raises, new demands, ready to walk/lock out when they don't get what they want, impossible to run a business hand cuffed to a union. There's the rotting arm to chop off.:beathorse

You're right! All these clue impaired executives give a **** about is their year end bonus! They forget about the people who work to put these bonuses in their back pocket...and their families. It's a real shame this country has developed into this, but it's about time we start holding people ACCOUNTABLE for their decisions. I'm held accountable each and every day at my job, why shouldn't they be?

Let's face it, the day of pensions are slowly fading away. ExxonMobil is phasing it out. Dow Chemical has been for the last couple of years. And I'm sure there are many other big corporations doing the same that I'm not aware of.

I really feel for those that could potentially lose most, if not, all of their retirement. Hopefully it all works out for those people.

Exactly. The big three is spending money right now producing scary videos showing what will happen if they fail. Not mentioning that the suppliers and manufacturers of their parts also produce parts for honda, toyota, and every other major manufacturer in the business. Their jobs, im sure, are safe. Dealerships will adapt to sell products that *actually sell* for once. Many of those jobs will be still exist. Im sure a HUGE amount of job loss will occur. There will be a painful transition period. But this country was founded on the principal of "the strongest survive" and it needs to stay that way. Coddling these fools who've mishandled their billion dollar industries is NOT the answer.

WELL SAID!!!!!! :thumbsup:

http://buzz.yahoo.com/article/1:y_fe...BbbLuLuk8azJV4
The best part about this all is this has been going on for years. If they cant get it straight by now what makes anyone think they'll be able to get it right after they get the cash.

I agree Tony, but the government bailout package is already an approved multi-trillion dollar crime scheme IMO. The relatively small percentage GM is asking for would only be a loan and not a gift. If they are going to save these banks that are too large to fail, I would say it's not only fair, but responsible to bailout our automotive industry. Especially at this time. To risk the potential loss of millions of jobs would shatter consumer confidence and might put us closer to a depression.

Has anyone noticed the UAW hasn't come out to play? No big speech's, threats.. Hell, they don't have a word to say!
IMO, the UAW broke the back of the US auto industry years ago but were just finding out how bad it's been because of the home mortgage crisis.

I don't think the retired workers should lose their medical coverage. Medical insurance for older Americans can run up to $1200 Mo and that would be worng
Someone posted earlier; "the workers invested into the pension fund, it's their money and they deserve to keep it" that's simply wrong. The pension fund is part of a benefit package they receive as part of the UAW agreement. You can't elect to not invest in the pension fund, in other words, if the pension plan didn't exist you wouldn't get the $5.90 Hr the put into the pension fund added to your pay check.
The UAW controls those pensions, they use it as leverage for a whole host of stuff.

I employee 34 men and women. Most of which belong to the Ironworker's Union. The average employee gets $34 on the check but I pay $83.21 per hour for those wages and the benefit package.

Non Union workers in the same trade make an average $18- $30.00 and generally receive some sort of medical from their employer.

This doesn't negate the fact the retired workers planned their lives around having that pension plan later on.
Do they deserve a $7k a month retirement package? LOL... I let you be the judge.



This is a huge mess and I don't feel like paying for someone Else's mistakes.
I didn't agree with the other companies getting bailed out either. If the country has to go into a recession for a year or so then that's what it has to do.

This country was founded on free markets, not government intervention.

I'm sorry if that bothers anyone, that's just my opinion.
I still love you.


Rich

Paulson already has said that there is NO WAY that they're getting any of the 700 billion approved for the financial bailout. The auto companies are asking for a whole different bailout package, just for them, *in addition* to the 25 billion they've already gotten this year. The thing about loans is, for you and me, there's an approval process, you have to prove credit worthiness to be loaned any money.

How's the big three planning on paying you and me back? By staying in business until they run out of OUR money again? No thanks. Die now, without my money.
They haven't said what they are planning to do differently. They wont even acknowledge that THEY are the fault. They blame the consumer, the economy, anyone but themselves for why they are losing billions. Bad ideas, bad deals, and bad cars = bad times for them. Show the US something. ANY great idea that's bound to make money, or a world beater product. Fire SOMEONE at the high level and say "it's HIS fault." But they won't.

I'm opposed to any form of loan to the big 2.5 that does not ensure massive restructuring of their Union contracts. The model they are operating under is not sustainable.

Just another perspective.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/op...=3&oref=slogin

IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

But don’t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass — they bet on management and they lost.

The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, was a candidate for this year’s Republican presidential nomination.

Can someone give me a summary.:rofl: :rofl:

HAHAHAHAHAAH *GASP* HAHAHAHAHAH

/comedy gold. That guy deserves his seat.

I know the is an unpopular opinion but I agree with it anyway! :cheers:

LoL.. seriously, with decisions like that, no wonder they're looking to file bankruptcy. I don't like the idea of paying for anyone else's mistakes either, and I've been against the .gov bailout from day one. But now that it's already a done deal, we, you and I, our kids, etc are already on the books for at least 850 bil, some say 3.5 trillion. And that went to buy worthless assets to start.. Who knows where else it's going? But they won't bailout the automakers? I guess I fear the worst of what could happen. That and it's sad to see American business either lose or be bought out by foreign interests.

I hate to see the not so big three fall too. But I cannot wait to see what great American company rises from their ashes. (amc?) That company will be truly awesome, will be unfettered by all the mistakes of the old auto companies, and will give the US an auto industry to be proud of again.

I keep on hearing about how we cant afford for GM to fall. GM talks about all the suppliers they use ect ect. To me it says that the other two companies will do better. Yes its one less choice but the other two will pick up the slack. I must be the only one seeing this or Im missing something.

I wouldn't count on it being American owned though... hopefully I'm wrong.

Absofrickinglutely.

And I watched some of the testimony on CNBC the other day and I believe it was Chris Dodd who said he isn't sure if we really need all 3 automakers to stay in business. That is a good question and and the answer may very well be no.

The US autos may have been making better cars lately, but they are still way behind in the perception of most people that their stuff is inferior - I don't care about your JD Power ratings. The foreign cars are good cars and the US has been playing catch-up for years. Now add the ridiculous UAW contracts and there's a formula for disaster.

And for those that are comparing this proposed bailout to that of AIG, the Investment Banks, etc. - stop. Not even in the same ballpark. The financial system does not require cars at the end of the day. I think they will get bailed out, but I don't like it. Sure it would hurt if these 3 fail, but it's just another of the very big current problems going on right now. It sucks that any bailouts happened, but the financials absolutely needed it for our system to remain intact. And it's barely remaining intact as it is!

We are in for a pretty big mess these next few years...... Hang on.

Could not agree more with you, Rich.

Your logic is backwards. In all the years I've worked for GM I have had pension payments deducted from my paycheck (this was when I was not in a salaried union). Those deductions have always been there so yes, I have PAID INTO IT, even when there wasn't some union contract calling the shots for me. So I am entitled to "something" when I go. Also, I am not going to get health insurance when I retire due to my hire-in date and crazy as it might seem...I agree with that. Why the hell should a company be responsible for someone's health care when that person no longer works for them? Geez if we're going to go that far what else can we do for you during your retirement? How about pay for your internet too? Your cable? Maybe we can pick up your phone tab and water bill for ya while we're at it. Gimmie a break.

Much love.

I still don't understand how Wall Street can get so much help, but when the Big 3 want a loan for a fraction of the amount, it's the most evil thing in the world. Look what AIG did after they got their billions handed to them - the executives went to some million dollar spa retreat deal...

guess we need to ask our goverment on that note! :yes:

Tony,

I understand your frustration totally. It's not your fault a handful of people ran this American icon into the ground.

My opinion is from first hand experience. I've signed on to 3 of these union contracts myself and I've written checks to those benefit programs totaling over $1M this year alone.
Please don't misconstrued my statements for being anything other than an outside opinion. It's hard to understand when you stand on the other side of the wall.
It bothers me that you have to go through this Tony. The guys at Lateral-G have been great to me and I consider everyone here like a big family, it hurts to see you in this situation.


Respectfully,

Rich Allen

The whole jet thing was just a bit out of control. I agree that they should show that reductions come at the top but how many ran at lunch time to have the free catered lunch when the US Govt is in deep financial trouble?? I saw a lot of $500 and up suits also so should they have showed up in sweats???

The problem is they did not show up with a plan. They did nothing to show how they were goin to change their business to assure a return on our investment. The mistake they made was going in there like it was a bank loan and it isn't. Heck, Ford pretty much said they really didn't even need the money and only wanted the left over $3billion to be saved for them in the future.

As important as it is to us there is the other 75% of Americans who just look at them as another business and they should be treated as such. The made a great point as to where does the handouts stop?? What Industry is next.

There is no way all three will survive if one goes down. At least 2 will go and probably the other will be bought or divided up. The suppliers can't take that large of a loss.


I think the union deal is just been beat to death. How anybody can dispute that the UAW in the past got out of control in their demands which they got because of threats to shut down production I am lost. Skilled labor should be rewarded. Unskilled labor should be treated fairly but not payed more than 1st year attorneys. If I do not like my job I leave and better myself to get a better job. I do not continue doing the same exact same thing and demand higher wages and threaten the Co.

Yes you should have extended coverages but what you are not getting is they are paying so much out to past employees it can't be extended to you. You are also being beat out of a whole bunch of stuff because of the greedy guy who came before you. You are paying for it more than me so if you are ok with it I guess you have a plan when you hit 65. I applaud your loyalty but you have to see that not entirely to blame it is part of the cause.

Once again how many took action and wrote a letter or email to back the Co's???? That is why there was no vote and they are screwed. NO VOICE NO REPRESENTATION!!! Don't blame the unions and CEO's blame yourself!!

I think what a lot of people are afraid of is the loan will be burnt through in a few months and they will be right back where they were, except with billions of our money gone.

If I try to get a business loan I have to prove my credit worthiness and ability to pay it back. So I think GM needs to show what changes they're going to make that satisfies the lender that they have a good chance of being re-paid. I don't think they've said a single thing they're going to do differently, and if true I see that as the problem.

I hope this all works out. I have many friends that work there, most on this board. Plus I'm a big GM guy anyway, and I realize that this reaches much further than just direct GM employees losing their jobs. But I think GM should be working on a plan to right the ship financially. If they come up with a viable plan I think the loan is there. Actually I think the loan will happen even if they don't change anything just due to the financial impact it'd have, but if the goal is to survive and compete with the other companies they need a new business model. You cannot keep doing the exact same thing and expect the results to change.

Jody

What he said. They should build and sell the cars that do well and make those even better. Get rid of the dead cars and dead weight. Kinda like In- N- Out. Just burgers and fries.

I guess if England can survive the loss of it's auto industry so can We right? I guess this will be a great opportunity for Tata from India and Changan Automobile Group and Cherry from China to get their vehicles here. I can see them swooping in to buy up the plants and designs and then suddenly they have U.S. compliant vehicles.

I don't understand why we are unable to have a deal like the French did with Renault. If someone is going to buy out the U.S. companies why not have it be the U.S.? Nationalize the companies and restructure management, make the company work for the company and not the shareholder. Once it turns around start selling it back to itself. Use Renault as a model.


It is a sad day for America and the American worker...........would You like fries with that?


I can not think of another American industry that has so many rules involved in designing and building it's product. How much of a new cars design and component cost is eaten up by D.O.T. and EPA requirements before the car design actually hits paper. Add the burden of out of date UAW contracts and then making the shareholders the primary concern instead of the customer or the company and it is definitely a recipe for disaster.

Anyone remember that movie with Micheal Keaton "Gung-Ho"? Remember how the Union workers didn't want to work to the Japanese standard? Is that whats to blame for the still perceived build quality problems or is it cutting costs on materials to show a better bottom line to shareholders? I think "free" enterprise running amuck in this country shares a large part of the responsibility for our current situation.

How many US airlines have gone through bankruptcy and yet are still in existence?

The reason I bring this up is this. It is my opinion that the UAW is calling the shots here. They are the reason why the big-2.5 Execs are so opposed to bankruptcy and restructuring because if that happens the contracts will also be restructured which spells disaster for the UAW.

But disaster for the UAW will ultimately help the industry build itself back up. The union is the biggest obstacle in competing with the import companies. I would think the "Execs" would be for that scenario. I haven't heard any representative from the UAW chime in on the subject yet...........

WOW!!!
Good deal Tony.:thumbsup: :cheers:
Post up some pics when you them.

GOOD CALL!!!
Very well said.:thumbsup:

That's because helping the Big 3 doesn't directly benefit Henry Paulson, Goldman Sachs, the Bush admin or the private Federal Reserve. So they won't have any part of it. But it's ok for them to bailout these inflated banks that made their bad decisions even though the only thing they produce is imaginary credit. It's total hypocrisy, save Wall St. and the corrupt money masters and screw the working middle class.

Something else to consider... If the Big 3 does go bankrupt, who would want to buy their cars not knowing the future of parts, service and warranty? Eventually they'll go under and be bought out by some foreign multi-national corporation.

Also a huge part of a healthy economy is confidence... Denying the auto industry any assistance would be a huge blow to that.

Is this the Bush administrations last ditch effort to stomp out the blue collar worker?

Rich, I understand. We're cool. You should probably know that I am no fan of the UAW even though I belong to it. I had no choice, I had to join if I wanted in to the department I'm working in now. They take $80 out of my check each month for virtually nothing.

does anyone know what the "loan" will do? im not sure how giving gm money will sell cars? if its to keep them operating it wont take long for all 3 to burn through the 25billion, it might be a loan, but once its chapter 11 its nothing and most people hope the money didnt go to the ceos .