On a side note, my wife and I had the pleasure of meeting Jake when I went to look at/buy a 68 camaro he was selling (7th Heaven - thanks, Jake!). Jake took me for a ride, at speed, on narrow, bumpy roads by his shop. His car was extremely composed over bumps and crowns and never lost a beat. At the end, I knew my heart was strong :)

theres no doubt the dse sub is killer and if he chose it there would be no reason to regret the decison i gotta ask what about the dse sub makes it ride "nicer" than any other sub? yea as far a look that relative... some like the look of tube frames some like the look of box framed, and some like the look of stock with the hydroformed.
not trying to get into why one is beter than the other just feel thats a odd comment to make.;)

So what does that mean? If someone was never going to drive there car on a track would you tell them that your subframe is not the best choice? Are there any negative effects using your subframe on the street. Will tires wear out faster with your setup? Just trying to understand....... :lateral:

No, just because my subframe is more aggressive, more camber gain does not make tires wear more, initial camber does in your alignment.also bad toe in/out can cause tire wear as well, but set up properly my chassis will keep the tires wearing more uniformly when driven hard(more neg camber gain) as well as work the same when driven daily. Because my chassis comes with 7 degrees caster built in, the uca is shimmed evenly across, so when going from street setting to track setting is the removal of street alignment shims,and install track shims(shims are one piece) and takes about 15 mins.The Apex chassis, was designed with the uca in front of the uca mount, thus when dialing in more neg camber, the shims get smaller(not larger) and with the Apex chassis just over -3.0 camber can be achieved at static.
My shock valving baseline provides a firm not harsh ride, and my spring rates are not crazy, but the adjustable bilstein shocks, will turn up with wic on the valving and make them at home on the track, adjusting both rebound and compression,high and low speed.
Heres a comparison
Jrs Apex frame street setting
-1.5 initial camber(no abnormal tire wear in 2500-3k street miles)
7 degrees of caster
1/16th or 0 toe in
when going into a turn, if one side compresses one inch,that tire will have -2.35 camber, other subs out there will have 2.10 or so.
Then the use of a 1.25 splined bar, it allows us to keep spring rates down to maintain ride quality, not one person has ever said anything about the ride being harsh.
Jrs Apex low speed, twisty road course setting(be applicable for nhms,spring mountain,etc)
-2.75 initial camber
7 degrees caster
1/8 to 3/16th toe out
shocks on 0 (open jet,proprietary valving)
Now at the road course when pushing the car harder, if my chassis goes into a turn and one tire compresses one inch, that tire will have -3.60 camber, keeping the tire contact patch as large as possible, when cornering, not only giving you the best traction, but not rolling out on the edge of the tire, wearing the outside edge quickly)
So, no just because my chassis has more aggressive camber gain etc, does not make it unworthy of the street, or easy driving, but if you want to turn up the wic some, my chassis will handle it in stride. not that the others won't, they certainly will and dse proves it. we just took the more serious driving to mind when designing the chassis in win geo, using the c6 parts just for the parts, the pick up points are all proprietary to Jrs.
Thanks.

Jake what is the ride height of the bottom of the subframe at ride height? I picked up a Camaro from Tyler a few weeks ago and I want to do a bolt togther project for once. I'm looking at a 26" tall tire.

Rodger

At the designed ride height, which is pictured below, the front engine cross member has 5.0625 clearance and the undercar rails have 4.0 ground clearance. With custom headers that stay above the under car rails, the car is a joy to load on and off a trailer at this height.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...IMG_1657-1.jpg

The down side to higher amounts of neg camber gain is when you apply power, the front rises, and the camber goes positive faster. Jake's car does look very well tuned in the video's though.
David

I have no first hand knowledge of which subframe rides the best or handles the best. I can tell you my ride is pretty plush and the handling is so good it makes my 08 550i seem pretty meek. As far as which sub rides the best... Frank at Prodigy seems the most fit for that job. I guess what I am trying to say is it's setup to handle well, look good, and ride nice. Hows that? Mine will spend 95% of the time on the street. Just throwing out some different angles here. How is this guy going to use his car?? Maybe he should get on here and tell us.

If you go with the DSE sub and want to run an LS motor remember that only the LS1 Fbody pan, LS7 pan or custom manufactured ones will work despite what their website says about LS2/3 pans.

Also, LS motors will require custom built headers if you want full length. The hooker super comp LS swap headers may be an option. Prodigy customs is developing a set of stainless headers with Stainless Works and ATS Tri-Y headers may also fit.

There is no clear choice to any of the options. The stock subframe has been proven to be a viable option with the correct mods. It can also offer adjustability with the the ATS and SC&C stuff.


The full clips add a one stop shopping complete bolt on with some compromises. You have to remember almost no 2 builds are the same so there has to be a compromise made unless it is built specific for your exact set up. That is where the adjustable set ups come into play. Problem is how many guys have the equipment or knowledge to make adjustments. Ever try to get an alignment shop to make adjustments to a modified car?

Everybody has a different idea of what handles well and what good ride and tire wear are. The person describing the handling and ride might drive a F150 or an BMW M3 so they have a different opinion as to what is good. Look for good customer service and a proven design. I do not want to be the test for someone to develop their parts. DSE has the edge in my opinion on design and testing. Plus their parts have a lot of miles on them.

Jake I have never seen your set up but if you are offering a tailored to fit bolt on you might have a market. I have never seen anybody offer a fully set up roller as an option to their suspension which if you did I think would help with that small shop personal attention sale. Just an idea. The cost of buying several spring sets and set up tools would be about the same cost.

I wish someone would design a coil over that lasts 15k miles without leaking and springs that do not sag. That is why I would favor a modified stock design. Killer delrin style bushings and 5" springs with adjusters with conventional shocks. I hate crawling under a car when they are done to keep fiddling with it. I would rather be driving.

thats why we use chose bilstein shocks and hyperco springs exclusively.no problems with leaking, or breakage.

Yes, however we are not that aggressive, race cars commonly see 1.0 plus neg camber gain, my chassis is at .85 per inch, very similar to parsons II much nova.

Very good write up.
Very informative for those of us that do not have any of these products being talked about.
If I can afford it, I would LOVE to go with the DSE stuff. A friend of mine went to SEMA this year and said that their stuff is nothing but TOP-NOTCH!!
But, for my personal use of the car, which isn't going to be used on the track, just a "once-in-a-while" weekend warrior, I may go with the Speed Tech instead to allow more money for other aspects of the build, et: big block power?:thumbsup: :cheers:

If the blue is your goal then just go with a modded OEM. The STtech sub will actually have you spending good money that you shoud put toward the power you are looking for.

JMHO

I had a highly modded sub with DSE arms, DSE c/o conversion, Unisteer rack, Hotchkis sway bar, fully welded frame, blasted, and painted...and it still didn't give me what I TOTALLY wanted. I wanted to run a 10" wheel and I love the look of fabricated frames. So I sold my old frame/suspension and went with the complete ST clip.

You have to understand that not everyone can weld, blast ,or paint...so to say you are simply waisting money going with the ST frame isn't exactly true! How much would it cost to take your stock frame (assuming you have one) to a shop and have them convert it to a true coilover, weld the seams and any other issues they find, blast it, and paint it? And you still aren't at the same point as if you just would have ordered a ST frame.

And I think you are forgetting that all the guys that already own tubular arms and possibly a Unisteer rack that want to loose a little weight off the frame and be able to run a wider wheel/tire this is a great option for them.

I'm hoping that you don't really have a beef with ST and think you are just informing others that this isn't the 'best' setup from an all out performance standpoint...but honestly some of us completely honest with ourselves and know that we will never drive our cars 10/10's and for the money this ST frame/suspension will work just fine!

So please back off, you have spoken, people have read what you have to say and they will make their own decision from here. If they are still considering ST then let it go....we don't need to continually hear that you think they are junk/waste of money...that's simply not true!

Just my Humble Opinion as noted in my post. And for the record I have no Beef with ST. I thought this was an open discussion were folks could express opinions. Sorry if you feel my opinions are strong or if you don't agree with them. You know what they say about opinions.
I will try to refrain from future post in this thread.
Regards

This thread will get sorted out about as fast as a ford vs chevy discussion. :D Like the old saying goes....there is an ass for every seat. No wrong answer here, it really depends on your exact situation, game plan, and ultimately how much money you are spending on your project.

I appreciate the input. That's how we all learn on these forums.
Like I said, if I "have" the money I will go with the DSE set-up.
If not, the ST will do just find for a lower stance, bigger tire and coil over system, especially for the times that I will be driving the car, which really won't be too much.
And I will not be dragging at the tracks or autox. Just want a nice set up for a weekend warrior type car above the OEM or OEM mod'dset up.:thumbsup: :cheers:

How much does a stock subframe weigh?

- stock rolling subframe (no tires), factory disc, manual sterring complete.
317 LBS

I had no idea. I think the ST frame is 125LBS bare, right? That is a good weight savings over stock.

I doubt that 125lbs is the complete subframe with steering and suspension. I'm sure the Speed Tech subframe itself is lighter but not 200lbs lighter.

Usually lighter tends to be flimsier so added strength like a cage will help to stiffen things.

yea it's not 200 lb lighter. it's 20lb lighter ( the frame alone) add all the parts and it might be 30-40 lb lighter total. definatly not flimsy.

Awesome thread, I wish I could afford any of them.
Ryan

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Hopefully I can? Gotta see what the future brings. If not, like I said, I'm sure ST will be more than good for my needs.
I checked out your gallery. Looks like a cool project going on.:thumbsup:

A stock bare sub weighs 110 lbs.
My weight for a complete sub with disc brakes, manual steering, no wheels: 315.5
Complete with power steering: 345

The cast iron hubs and calipers, and steering box are where a lot of the weight is.
David

Good information.

Thanks