Sounds like this is something we can go over in detail at the Lateral-g get together at Sandlin's during SEMA. In the mean time, I'm going to make some phone calls...

Hmm, I went to H.S. with Scott Pruett and see his folks from time to time.............nevermind, I haven't even started my car.

This is such a freakin great idea! ....and for the vendors, a fantastic opportunity to gain some noteriety for their particular "system".

I agree to a point, but I think a "bolt-on" would have to bolt to the original frame or subframe. If Art Morrison built a full C6 vette chassis for a chevelle, I couldn't set my body on that frame and call it a "bolt-on". To me, a bolt-on suspension would retain the stock frame/subframe with minor mods and strengthening allowed, and anything goes as far as what's bolted to it such as control arms, spindles, brakes, etc.

Also, All cars should run the same street tires and chassis settings throughout the competition.
*edit for clarification* allow any street legal tire you want, but can't change tires for different competitions. You use the same 4 tires for the entire event... choose wisely, they need to perform in all aspects; drags, cornering, and ride quality.

I'd like to see something set up like RSE, but do it like this:

Car Show - 10% of the points - judge fit, finish, quality, etc. don't judge styling, that's too subjective, so a well done Gremlin with a plaid interior rolling on Keystones can score better than a poorer quality but tasteful '69 camaro

50 mile drive - 30% of total points - points taken for items that don't work, such as wipers, radio, etc. 2 points taken for each gallon of gas used. Judges ride with (and take turns in each car) scoring their ride quality, noise levels, and comfort. Take interstate, costant speed of 70mph

1/4 mile drag-race - 30% of points - scores based on the average of your best 2 of 3 runs.

Road Course - 30% of points - scores based on the average of your best 2 of 10 laps.

If you don't compete in one competition, you get 0 points for it. If you break down, or don't finish one of the competitions, you get 0 points, and are DQ'd for points in the remaining competitions.

The points system would be just a way to make some interesting magazine coverage, the real purpose of the event is to meet, have fun, and see how your car performs compared to some other members' cars.

I like it
 

This post is getting long and I don't remember who stated it, but I like the "run what'cha brung" event. Sure there will be bragging rights, but really no need to seperate the cars. How many do you think are going to be complete and ready to roll? I will be more than happy to run my car against a 800 or 1000 hp forced induction car and if I get my butt handed to me, then I either need driving lessons, a better set up on my car or more HP. I can live with that. Rank them top to bottom and it will give you something to aspire to next year.

As far as drivers go, I would rather take my car out and enjoy it with my no driving ass, than have some hired gun flog the pee out of all my hard work. If someone is going to tear up my car I would rather it be me.(me breaking something is not in the master plan, however things do happen when you drive fast)

Never the less, If my car is finished I will do all I can to be at the event however it is set up.

Sorry, but all that's gonna happen is make this all waaaaay too comlpicated, just keep it simple, these aren't race cars, they're YOUR street driven pride & joys. Run what ya brung!! You can't differenciate between bolt on & non bolt on 'cos then you gotta differentiate between engine size, tyre size, wheel tub size, suspension upgrades,wheel size, brake size, vehicle weight etc etc, where does it all end ??? Besides the great leveller is the big nut behind the steering wheel :unibrow: .You might have THE best set up car in the world, with ALL the bits, but you might get blown away by a car with next to no bits but with a hotshoe behind the wheel!!............Keep it simple, this is supposed to be a fun thing, it doesn't matter if you don't win 'cos the other guys got bigger, better faster this that 'n the other !!

As to the car show thing for points, this is REALLY a personal subjective thing & wouldn't work & could cause an AWFUL lot of bad feeling, same applies to the judges taking turns to ride & find out ride qualities, wind noise etc, who cares ???? It's YOUR pride & joy no one elses!! For this to work you gotta look at why you're doing it........because you wanna have some fun & see what YOUR car will do,.... period !!!, You can't compare cars' performances 'cos there are just TOO many variables & you'll never know if it's your, brakes, suspension or whatever that make the difference. The only way to ascertain what works best on a car is to change one component on your car at a time, but of course we can't do that can we?? So treat it for what it is, to show the world what YOUR car can do, all in a Run What Ya Brung way, just hope you've brought enough !!! :thumbsup:

couldn't agree more!!! :thumbsup:

Will there be a penalty box? I can already see myself being sent to the corner.

penalty box
 

Yea we can have a penalty box...staffed with the local Hooter girls. I think someone has not been playing very nice and needs a spankin'....oh,oh,me,me!

Yeah, c'mon in. I'll save ya a spot!

Yes, which is why I wrote this: :)

IMHO, There has to be some sort of "winner" for the readers to read about, and a way for the magazine to determine a winner. I'm no magazine marketing expert, but I don't think an article about a bunch of guys getting together and racing will attract as many readers as something like CC's RSE competition.

The ONLY way to do this is to emulate the already-succcessful Open Track events which can be insured and open to street-licensed cars.

what that means is....it has to become a SCHOOL and not be a COMPETITION

If it becomes a RACE...I can foresee bad things...not intentional fender-banging, but maybe chances being taken that shouldn't be (which could result in the same level of bent fenders).

The BEST way I can see accomplishing anything good is to have transponders in each and every participating car for the entire day. Spread the cars out and have them race the CLOCK and only the clock. "Awards" will be for the best lap times. If you've had all day to make laps, surely one of them should show the car/driver potential. If you get hung up behind a slower car, there should be NO NEED to take a chance to pass. You'll have another chance to make a good lap, so just relax.

Having a slalom course set up and also a 200 ft. skid pad would offer more chances for timed "awards" while everyone is "learning."

I say worry LESS about classes and focus more on FUN. Everyone will know who's doing well and who could use some help. It's always quite obvious.

I will have more (maybe MUCH more) to contribute to this subject soon.

SP~

Again, I think we are spiraling out of control. What is the purpose of this competition? What went from Mean69 saying manufacturers should prove their stuff, and me throwing my name in the hat for a competition, has now gone to a version of RSE, what car / driver is baddest? That is fine, but not what originally started this thread. If we want to do a magazine shootout, the manufactures / builders should bring their cars. If we are going to have every member with a modified car come out for a competition, that is cool too. We just need to understand the difference.

If, for some reason, your get together happens in New Jersey (aka "Joisey") . I can put you in contact with the owner of Atco Raceway. (http://www.atcorace.com/) My husband is good friends with him...
~Theresa

People read magazines like Car and Driver, Motor Trend etc. all the time to see how a certain car performs. Wouldn't you like to see a car that you know about on this site, or whatever, and then actually know if all that stuff on the car actually worked?

For example; If a car with the full Global West treatment only performs slightly better then a stocker with a sway bar, I'd be interested in knowing that.

I'm interested in results.

i see this is getting really complicated in a hurry...... maybe the best way would be to throw out the classes and points, run whatcha brung kinda deal, or sit back and watch. it should be more like an informal get together than a hardcore comp event. i can see there might be too many cars to get it organized in a way for everybody to have time to do everything they want, so a pre-registered deal might have to be done... i guess it would kinda be directly in relation to how long we can play on the tracks.

i think we need to elect some chiefs to determine the basics, this way they can ask the questions when they need everyones $.02

im gonna nominate SW...as he has the hook ups for the tracks... i think he should be in the loop.

the cheifs need to be able to make the decisions for everyone, so choose wisely.... or nominate yourself

Just some thoughts off the top of my head....

Scale every car (including 4 corner weights and splits)
0 to 60 times
Quarter mile ET and MPH
0-100-0 (done on the dragtrip)

200 ft skid pad (Lateral-g)
Acceleration g on drag strip
Then multiply/factor those numbers together in some way. This to me would be very interesting. I'd like to see a car pull 1g or more on the skid pad and still put down a killer 60' time on the same tires/suspension setup.

And of course there's the road course track time, but that will only show who the better driver is.

Again, these are just some ideas off the top of my head...

Once again though you're confronted with too many parameters to determine why one car is quicker than the other. Is the faster car driver better, or is the slower driver more concerned about damaging something?.You would never tell if the Global West setup is better, or if something else is helping the car.

For sure we all want to see how the cars perform & that's all we can expect from this, it won't prove anything unless EVERYONE screws the balls off their cars (which they won't), or one driver drives all & that ain't gonna happen is it? Treat it for what it is, ......A good day out, with friends enjoying, :thumbsup: fast cars.

Yea, but those are production cars and all alike.. If a car with GW stuff (for example) did poorly would it be because it was installed wrong, set-up wrong (alignment) or did the driver suck?

But, it would be interesting to see..

I see we are of the same thinking on this...

I like the "run what ya brung" idea with maybe two classes for regular and tube chassis cars. DOT tires with the driving tests as mentioned before. Can be trailered to the event but then has to stay off the trailer till it is over. bonus points for comfort and MPG factored in somehow.

Sounds like a fun way to blow a weekend.. I will bring the beer! (for after the racing)

I nominate Scott, "Bouncer", "MaxHarvard", "KAA", and myself to the location-choosing committee :D (and anyone else from MN :unibrow: )

I think the "time trial" thing that a lot of the open track organizations are using is a way to subvert the insurance problems associated with running a street car in a competition.

Yep.. although I don't even know if you can "officially" call it a timed event.. because that implies a "competition" and thus a race.

i'm sure both sides of the issue (insurance companies & the open track companies) have an incomprehensible pile of legal mumbo-jumbo that absolves them each of liability. We just need a lawyer to tell us which one will stand up.

Wow, this is getting a little :willy: ..

This has to be for fun, for everyone.. leave egos behind..

This needs to be a time trial/school type set up for insurance purposes.

After we run our "time trials", we can have open track time. We could have two classes, street tires and race tires. I don't think we can/need to do wheel to wheel racing. There will be people with alot of experience, some with little to none. The last thing I want to see is someone getting hurt or destroying their car..

SW

I attended the IMCA Super Nationals in Boone, Iowa three few weeks ago. At the entrance to the pit gate was a sign that stated "No Crybabies". The message is that IMCA hosted the event and if any racers did not like the rules or format, they may as well stay out of the track.

The right people will need to step up and front the cash needed to host this event. These people have final say regarding the parameters of the event. Everyone else will just be guests in that hosts' "home" and can either participate or bail. That's just how things work.

Someone let me know if an event like this happens. In the meantime, I'll be hanging out with the "Posers." :D

Well whatever the rules 21st Century Street Machines will plan to attend. See my posting under C28 thread. Ed

just thought i would bring this back up...... you guys planning on maybe electing a commitee at sema to hammer this out?

If this happens in TX, I'd be happy to help organize things and pick up some volunteers to help out. I have plenty of track and shop connections as well, and SW and I get along just fine :)

I agree on the magazine test format, and having separate classes based on modifications. Lap times, slalom, braking distance, and quarter-mile.

Might even be more fun (and affordable) to invite any type of rear-drive performance vehicles to play, and just have separate pro-touring classes for us. Could be a HUGE gathering of nice rides.

Tony

Let's do this...

SW

I am (we are) still in too, but all of this debate about what, how, etc is making me tired. I'd suggest that folks who will actually have a 80%+ chance of having a car there and seriously participating be the ones that are involved in sorting out the format, etc. It still sounds like a meeting over lunch, or breakfast, or whatever during the SEMA week should be in order, but not coincident with the dinner events (just won't be enough time).

Is there a point person that can capably organize all of this, not just the track time, but sorting out the details and maintaining the communications, decisions, etc? I flat out can't, just not enough mental capacity, but I still think this could be a really fun thing to do. I will say though, I'd have to agree with Steve's idea of "No Crybabies."

Mark

If going to the track and "losing" is going to make you cry, you're there for the wrong reasons. There is no losing at a track day unless you wreck the car or get hurt.

Count me in if the logistics work out.

Speed Ventures has on-track days where transponders are an option. No "racing", just lap times. They are a great bang-for-the-buck organization.

i wont be at sema...... but i will be at the event...assuming its not gonna happen till spring/early summer

i really hope this will be a multi day kinda deal too..... otherwise its really not worthwile to load up and drive 30+ hours each way.

I nominate Wednesday afternoon around 1:00pm for the comittee to meet during SEMA.

Tyler

Isn't everyone kinda gonna all be together at Sandlin's place anyway? Personally, I think that since it would be a branded Lateral G event, Scott has the final decision on how and what the event is. Maybe Scott could elect a event coordinator, like SW has been mentioned, and get the show on the road.

I don't know how many of you have actually tried to have a democratic meeting with a group of like minded enthusiast with such different ideas of how something should be done, but a hour only muddies things up worse. I have a little experience with this when I ran a 10,000 member club. We would have meetings at the national convention with 300 people, and at the end of the day, we just had to make the decision anyway because everyone was to split, or to far out there, or wasn't thinking about what was good for the hobby / business, but what worked well for them. Quite honestly, we decided the only way to be sure everyone was happy was to make a class for every car and put the 1st place trophy in the goodie bag. The reality is in situations like this, a dictatorship is a much better choice then a warm and fuzzy democracy. How about everyone do there politician with Scott at Steve's, let the man decide what he wants the event to be, and then we all participate if we want to. Scott should do what is best for the hobby / business. Quite honestly, the people he should be talking to are not us, but the press, to see what they would bite on.

Hours at SEMA at to precious to waste on this potential pissing match! Assuming it is east to near the center of the country, Team Prodigy will be there, no matter what.

Frank, I've talked to one magazine already and I'm sure as something like this gets more concrete, there will be even more interest.

I think before we get too worried about the rules and classes, we need to hammer out a location and a date. Once we know we have a venue, the rest will come together quickly. Texas Motor Speedway sounds like a great place if you guys have the connections. :thumbsup:

I agree with Tony, I think we should have magazine type tests:
0-60
1/4 mile
Lateral-g
Scale the car (total and front/rear split)

These type tests are not subjective nor would the drivers experience play too big of a role.

There are also some subjective areas like fit and finish, ride quality, etc, etc. Time on a road course would be fantastic, something to definitely shoot for, but I believe the numbers would be skewed towards the drivers with serious driving skills and not really showcase what does and what doesn't work.

[QUOTE=ProdigyCustoms]Isn't everyone kinda gonna all be together at Sandlin's place anyway? QUOTE]

I say we talk about it there..

SW

Sandlin's will be a good place to get serious about this. A lot of the players will be there as well as some magazine people. :thumbsup:

I won't be at SEMA this year (getting married that week), but I'll help out however I can if the event is in TX.

SW, if you have any SCCA autocross contacts, it might be cool if we could borrow their timing equipment, or possibly pay them to come out and do that for us. I know some of these guys would like to run the cones if the track isn't available.

Tony

Congrats on the upcoming wedding, Tony. Too bad about SEMA, although it probably wouldn't make for the best honeymoon. :D