Look at the event list that DSE will be running their cars and go for it. That would be the easiest.

I like the sway bar and the header clearance that you get with the dse frame. Having seen these frames side by side there just isnt any competition in my mind. The frame rails the craftsmanship of the dse frame speaks for itself.

So I emailed the 2 company's with some questions on pricing and what not and AME sent me back an auto reply and DSE actually took the time to write me back which means a lot to me as for as customer service goes especially if I am going to be spending that kind of money.Now my decision is back up in the air but now that AME decided to blow me off I'm leaning towards DSE.Does anyone know what the differences are in ride height,backspacing,and max tire wheel size, bolt pattern etc.

I'm not sure that the form of response to an e-mail inquiry is the best basis for this decision, but that's just me.

Well from what i have gotten on here as far as quality goes there both good so the next thing after that to me would be price and customer service and AME is cheaper but DSE apparently in my case has better customer service but my decision is still on going.

Do you prefer the fabricated look of AME, or the more stock look of DSE?

Really the look makes no difference to me as long as it rides good and drives well but if i had to choose a look most likely DSE.

I have bought parts from both and have to say their customer service is both outstanding.

I would not let an auto email reply sway you either way.

I am in Australia and spending big $$ is always a risk as returns are an expensive proposition internationally, both companies went out of their way to make sure my purchases were smooth and accurate.

I'm guessing the best way to solve this one is to flip a coin....

best of out 3 :thumbsup:

I have dealt with both and they both have excellent customer service. I can also tell you that I can send a PM to Matt the designer of the AME subframes and get an answer the same day. For me this kind of access is very valuable. I'm not sure you can do this with DSE.

Don

Ame
 

What pushed me to AME, is for that kind of money I wanted a high tech fabbed looking piece to go with all of the other high tech stuff on my car. (LS engine ProCharger 6 speed ETC). There is no doubt that the quality and performance is there on both frames. It's basically the question do you want a extremely slick factory look (DSE) or a high tech fabbed look (AME).

You're going to have to make the decisioin. I wouldn't let a few bucks pursuade you. Call them both and place your order.

I've been following this thread and wanted to say thanks for all the good info.
Based on the reply to my question on the first page about the stock sub frame, I will be staying with the factiry unit with a few upgrades. Arms, shocks, brakes... I will weld up all the seams though.
I have a motor to build and am thinking the money is better spent there.
Thanks guys.:thumbsup:

Ring them up, emails fall through the system sometimes

https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthre...ght=matt+jones

I have no dog in this fight, as I already have a different brand subframe, but I wanted to make a few observations:

I think people are using "high tech" to describe a look rather than the application of technology. The DSE frame is, I think, intended to imitate the look of the factory piece.

Like DSE, the AME subframe uses C5/C6 uprights. The AME frame also uses C5/C6 upper and lower control arms. It looks like (but I can't tell for sure) DSE uses "one-off" proprietary upper and lower control arms, which may or may not be readily available if and when one needs to be replaced.

AME recently announced a splined sway bar for their frames and subframes - https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=20667. It's also pretty easy to source a splined sway bar, pillow blocks and custom bent arms from places like http://www.1speedway.com, as I recently did for my subframe.

I can't tell from any pictures I've seen online, but it looks like the pillow blocks for the DSE splined sway bar are part of the subframe. Is that the case and, if so, what size is the sway bar - 1" or 1.25" or larger? If 1", that may limit your ability to tune the sway bar rate for more aggressive uses.

For example from the Speedway Engineering site, a 1" sway bar 36" long acting through a 12" arm has a maximum rate of 200 lbs for 5 degrees of twist. A 1.25" sway bar 36" long acting through a 12" arm has a minimum rate of 236 lbs for 5 degrees of twist up to a maximum rate of 488 lbs for 5 degrees of twist. The external pillow blocks for the AME frame allow for the use of their bar or (assuming it's a 1" bar, it actually looks like it might be larger) replacement with larger diameter, stouter bar.

So the questions I'd have are - can the DSE UCA/LCA be easily sourced following, for example, a collision, what size is the DSE sway bar, how is it mounted, and can it be easily tuned (by replacing the bar) for higher rates?

Jeff: I'm not looking to get into a pissing match with you. You've had your say and I've had mine. I'll leave it at that.

Check with DSE but I talked to them about the sway bar quite a while ago. It's a pretty standard roundy round piece that you could easily buy some extra bars and play. It's really easy to swap out as well. I think the one that's in there is perfect so far. The pillow blocks are not part of the subframe and either are the bushings.

If you can go up to a 1.25" bar, and pillow blocks for the 1.25" bar fit inside the crossmember, that issue is completely negated.

I am going through the same debate in my head for a project that I'm putting together right now... AME vs. DSE.

I don't think I've seen this issue mentioned yet, but I'm curious to hear from the owners of the DSE setup what they feel about this. It is my understanding that the DSE control arms don't allow you to adjust the coilover ride height without separating the control arm from the spindle. Do I understand this correctly? And if so, from an adjustment standpoint, do people consider this a concern?

I understand that once all is set up to your liking, this shouldn't be an issue any longer.

Appreciate any thoughts on this subject...

Absolutely a myth...I've adjusted mine more times than I care to think about.

Thanx Todd... I know I've seen more than one person bring it up before, so is the problem that people don't know how to do it, or that special tools are required? When I first heard this, it became a big red flag to me, so debunking the myth (for me at least) would be great!

The DSE coilover conversion for the stock subframe requires that you break a ball joint loose for adjustment. That may be the source of the confusion.

Jcal- I am sorry that you felt that we blew you off. Could you please forward me (PM or e-mail me) the response that our sales staff sent to you. I would like to have a look at it so I can make the necessary changes with how our sales guys deal with e-mail responses. Thank you.

Kyle and I have joked about this and its the #1 question we get at shows. He gets guys with AME catalogs in hand asking why his is better and we get guys with the purple catalogs asking why ours is better. We both use the same rack, upright and suspension analysis program - geometry and driving feel/performance is going to be extremely close so it comes down to which brand you like the best and what "look" you like the best, hydroformed or fabbed. In the end either sub is going to give you an excellent ride and you are going to be very happy with your decision.

Well put Craig.... and I think that many of us have tried to say the same. When you get to this quality... you just can't go wrong with either choice. Both companies are pure class operations. There just is no wrong choice here.

Thanks Craig, both companies are awesome and either product will be a great choice. Good discussion, call them and get the piece u want. :cheers:

I have one more question on this topic for now if anyone knows...

What are the hub to hub widths on each setup? Without rotors or with? Just wondering how each compares to the stock width.

Thanx!

Im partial. Guess we will be when the parts are under our car. So... For my opinion I bought a AM rear 4-link clip in 1995. It really was the only thing available, they were the leaders. Easy to follow, and improve, if there is room for improvement.

Lemme say, the frame rails they provide are STOUT!! Dunno if the frames have changed over the years. And what I bought was exactly what I ordered.

Now, a few years forward I decided to change the purpose of the car. Not so much pro-street anymore but more of a nice handling car for the street. Pro tour if that fits. But what was cool is I was able to keep alot of the AM products. And incorporating my stuff to the AM rear clip was painless... Helps when there is a solid platform to work from, and theirs is solid. I have dealt with the customer service a few times over the years. Its comparable to any after market manufactures customer service. Actually some stick out as being above the standard, Air Ride technologies is one.

So I can honestly give a nod to AM, they do provide a good product.. JR

And if yer interested here is a link to my revamp of the rear suspension...
https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=20605

You better call the manufacturer for that one.... and I'm thinking they could vary a bit depending on brake choice... big azz Baer or humungus Wilwoods vs ordinary GM. My Wayne Due sub had C5 Vette calipers and big Baer rotors... but I can't remember what the track was - but it would take wider wheels than a stock piece because of the design.

I would think that would be because that's her personal car, and it's setup to the way she likes it. I have geometry specs for 2nd gens; frankly, the spindle is just too short. But that's not to say it can't handle well.

If you're talking about first gens, our hub width is a bit over 60-1/2" using stock or Wilwood rotors. 60" is about factory for 67-69, somewhat depending on ride height (there's a fair amount of side scrub on those suspensions).

So eight pages later.... did you buy one?

Not yet mark i have actaully been out of town on military orders to dallas fort worth for the last couple weeks.I havent had much time to look into but i have pretty much decided to go with art morrison due to price and stock corvette parts. but now that GM has gone bankrupt even that worries me.

To All:

Since two major after market sub frame choices have been discussed for him, can anyone with a stock subframe with Global West, UCA and LCA (I have been told that they were the best Control Arms on the Markets as far as Having the best characteristics built into them, for improved handling on a first generation F-Body), Stock Spindles, Bump steer adjusters, ATS Steering Box (The best Steering box), Hotchkis Front Sway Bar (Another one of the Better Item made), and the Wilwood 6 Piston 13 inch Brakes (Best Bang for the Buck for High Performing Brake Kits), Varishock/Penske or other good quality front shocks.

Also, what exactly is needed to be done to the stock sub frame to optimize it's performance. (Specify)

This option would be the least expensive choice of the three and possibly have only a negligible performance difference with the other two, one reason being that all the major parts hanging on the subframe are top quality.

Other than 20 mm or so tire width difference (Slightly greater than the width of two 9mm bullets) in which the tire will not rub against the body, frame, or steering components and still retain all of it's turning ability, and about 40 pounds or so of extra weight. (About two pizzas and 3 six packs a month) what do you really accomplish with an after market subframe? (Other than lightening your wallet a couple grand?)

The, "One Lap Camaro", from what I understand did a bang up job with a "Stock" subframe underneath it.

What is the real skinny on reason's NOT to go ahead and use the original Subframes other than what I have mentioned above. Surely a bit of weight, and an inch of tire isn't all there is between them other than looks?

Thanks,

Ty

While I'm not sure I agree with your "best" parts list, until James and Steve agree that, say, David Pozzi can run the One Lap Camaro and Bad Penny on the same track, back to back, we'll not have a very good answer.

One Lap - Stock subframe, rewelded, ATS coil-over set up, tubular control arms, ATS spindles, ATS steering box, Baer Trackers and ATS splined sway bar.

Bad Penny - 21st Century Street Machine subframe using coilovers, C5 control arms, uprights and hubs, AGR rack and pinion and a splined swaybar.

Both have LSx engines putting out well north of 500hp, both use T56's and the Lateral Dynamics 3 Link rear suspension. (That list tells you something doesn't it?) So far as I can determine, the only material difference (other than the obvious subframe difference) between the two is that Penny (I think) carries wider front wheels and tires.

I see the "preference vote" is 39 AME to 33 for DSE...

It would be fun to see if this vote is split along "east" and "west" addresses for the voters?

It's a hypothetical question - but would be interesting to see if there is a difference of opinion based on location and 'familiarity'.

:beathorse

There is surprisingly little difference between driving Penny and the One Lap Camaro. Penny has a slight advantage due to wider front tires and less overall weight, - and less front weight, but it's more due to those items than subframe construction or other factors. They are more alike than you could imagine. The low tie rod end spacers needed to bumpsteer the ATS spindles are limiting the front rim width for OLC to a 255 tire,. I'm sure there is a solution to it, but for now there are more pressing items on the "list" to fix. Both cars are not fully developed yet, but the biggest issues are solved and we are making progress.

Some of the differences are more in the ease of adjusting a coil over or header or engine clearance. The front rack subs have easier access to the tie rod adjusters, rear steer cars are harder to reach, but I just loosen the tie rod sleeves before setting the car on the turntables, then raise the car to lock them down. I recently did a rough alignment on a DSE sub and really like how it looks under the car. The shock adjusters were a bit tight to get to but not too bad. The sway bar arms are closer to the coilovers which are more inboard and vertical on the A arm than other subs, not a big problem but just different. I like how they tied the rack mounts into the sway bar crossmember. The OLC has more scrub radius by quite a bit, but honestly it barely showed up when I drove it down a familiar bumpy section of road near my house. DSE sub adjusts with shims like a stock sub, their A arms come with delrin bushings which are going to give better control of the suspension than the stock corvette rubber. I don't know if Morrison has upgrades for the A arm bushings. The Corvette bushings are very soft and you wouldn't notice they were causing a cornering loss unles you swapped in better stuff. What I'm trying to say is, most people wouldn't notice the stock Corvette rubber a arm bushings were a problem and wouldn't need to upgrade them, but those who open track or autocross a lot should consider it.

The Lateral Dynamics rear suspension is about as good as it gets for a stick axle car. Super stability and less unsprung weight helps keep the wheels on the ground when you hit bumps. I'm sure the torque arm and DSE rear suspensions are good too.

If you are re-working a stock sub yourself, you might save money over an aftermarket sub.
If you are paying someone to do it, an aftermarket sub is probably very close in cost to a reworked stock sub.
David

==============================
My car has a LS3 (600 hp, not in yet), Tremec 5 Speed, LD 3-Link, Penske Shocks DA Front, Spax Shocks DA rear, ATS Coil Over set up, ATS Steering Box, the ATS Spindles won't work with the wheels because I want to Run Mini-Lites, 6 Pot Wilwood, 13 inch Two Piece Rotors, Sway Bar by Hotchkis. Full Cage.

Hopefully this will help with the comparison. While not exactly the same, most major parts are.

Thanks,

Ty

David:

Many Thanks for your input.

Sincerely,

Ty O'Neal

Great input David,Thanks

I would probably go with the AME simply because it utilizes off the shelf GM parts that can be purchased from a dealership, and maybe even a pick and pull yard... and i think it looks cooler.

HOWEVER

DSE has some of the best customer service I've experienced, and their business is based almost solely on pro-touring cars alone. They really do know the product base inside and out (not that AME doesn't, but they have a lot going on).

DSE has averaged one subframe sale per day since available. That is just their numbers, that means pro touring is alive and doing well.:cheers: