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Do you have my email address? PM me when you have time please.:thumbsup:
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This small starter uses different mounting bolts! Be very careful in matching starter bolts to the starter! That small GM "metric" starter is first off, not a good starter, it lacks power, and it uses different diameter bolt shanks than the older large starters. They are still 3/8" coarse thread in the block but lengths and shank diameters are slightly different between that one and the old standard large starters. Use the wrong bolts, and the starter will twist after a few starts and will no longer be 90 degrees to the flywheel and bind. The large and small OEM GM starters require bolts with knurl where the bolt engages the block. A tilton type mini starter should use knurled shank bolts too. |
I would have ASSumed that this "newly purchased" starter came with the proper bolts - and some shims even????
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yes, the small starter came with grade 8 knurled bolts, but the mini torqure starter, that didnt, i didnt install there bolts OR starter. I spent 4 horus under the car working with it, and i think i may got it for a bit.. my alternator no longer gets hot, just warm, but after 3 minutes of running (idling only) the battery juice was just drained, barely wanted to turn over for the second time! so maybe thats my problem now, the alternator not charging my bat, and therefore starter gets out align and causes my grinding...
i only have on wire going from my alternator to my starter solenoid, which is on the same bolt as my red 12 gauge batter cable, which is returned to the battery. |
Vic --
Your one wire alternator is hooked up fine --- a HEAVY gauge wire from the lug on the alternator = down to the POSTIVE battery cable terminal on your starter.. Now here's the thing that most don't know about ALTERNATORS -- they have to be "rev'd" to a certain RPM BEFORE they'll get "excited" and start charging. Given that you're most likely just starting the car - and letting it idle - might explain why it's not kicking into charge mode. Give your battery a good overnight charge -- get your motor started -- then don't forget that all important cam break in -- while you're doing that - you can drop a volt ohm meter on the battery and check that it's being charged. |
You beat me to it Greg1 Very good advice. I'll have to look, but there is an old circle track trick for one wire alternators. You can hook up a switch to manually "excite" the alternator to charge. However, when the switch is off, the alternator does NOT charge. This was so while racing, you could turn it off and not rob power. During caution or pace laps, you could turn it on and add some juice. It was very simple if I recall. Maybe someone can chime in before I dig for it.
Using the correct bolts is also a very good call. I ASSumed just like Greg that the starters came with the correct bolts. You can buy shim material From McMaster Carr or MSC. It may take time, but if you buy like .010", you can trace your shim that was provided and cut it with an X-acto knife. Be careful, but it can be done. Then just cut as many as you need and stack them up. Worth a shot to try the mini starter. Good Luck! |
thanks
im intereted in the trick your talking about, would be nice to have the car start at least 3 times before the battery is completely drained. Is it normal thought for the the old cars, that if you start it, and the battery isnt charging, until driving, that you can only maybe start it 1 or 2 times before theres not enough juice to start? I have my rad fan connected directly right now to cool it during the idle, plus doors open, so courtesy lights are on, heater fan is also blowing so the bats taking a beat without it actually charging. |
Depends on how much cranking is needed to get it started. If you are doing the cam break in, the idle should be high enough to charge the battery. Go to Harbor Freight and get your own battery tester. Fine for personal use. When it gets started see if you are charging. I'll try to dig up the switch trick. I can't promise anything. It was quite awhile ago I did it. I later changed to 16 and 18 volt stuff.
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Vic --
One more thought on the grinding noise you're hearing while it's running or starting... Did you use the proper flywheel and or flexplate bolts?? They are "special" to the application... and have a thin - weird looking head (how's that for a description)... Use the wrong ones -- and you're going to have all manor of racket! Also - I've helped guys that have installed the wrong "dust cover" on the bottom of the bellhousing -- It covers the open flywheel/flexplate.... and that can make one hell of a racket if it has some kind of interference. |
yes, I bought my flex plate and torqure convertor bolts from the autopart store, used the correct thing head short thread bolts.
dust cover is not install yet because ive been fiddling non stop with the starter! Grinding has not occured again, and ive turned it over 3 times now! what RPM does the alternator start to charge? |
GOOD MAN!!
Various RPM's for "exciting" the alternator - kind of like a woman... they're all different! Typically 1300 or so should get 'er done -- and you only need "blip" the rpm's up there to get 'er started (unlike a woman)... So if you can take it to 2000 and hold it a minute -- then you'll be sure it's started charging. It only takes once per "start" to kick it in -- then the internal regulator takes over. |
i see...
why couldnt you have been my neighbor? lol |
If you have a digital volt meter, here's a handy chart for battery state of charge:
STATE OF CHARGE ----VOLTS engine off. 100%---------12.66 75%----------12.45 50%----------12.24 25%----------12.06 0%-----------11.89 Radiator fans draw a lot of amps and can run a battery down in a short time. |
Alot of good information in this thread. I'm glad you asked this question, I'm learning alot of things I didn't know.
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We are neighbors -- only about 135 miles and a couple of fences between us... BTW -- this is EXACTLY what these forums are about right?! People helping other people. Sharing their excitement! Sharing a piece of themselves! It just doesn't get any better than that!'' PS BTW -- I like lots of the people on here - can't say that about a couple of my neighbors!!! :rofl: I'm waiting for the guy in back of me to kick/move -- then I'll buy his house and doze it... put up a "clean space" over there... and would have 2 1/2 acres and complete privacy. |
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You know what I am starting to believe, that my battery is not holding enough amps for my car, after 3 starts, the completely charged battery should not struggle, or would it? its a brand new battery and i have had it tested and it holds its capacity and is perfectly fine.. thanks pozzi for that chart, def will print it out when doing my tests... and i was running the fan direct prior to my engine being started.. i just dont want to have a hot date and it having trouble starting! i have a reputation to keep to, all my friends say "...if you dont get to sleep with white milfs on a regular basis, this car is a complete waste of resources, and i don't think i want to be your friend.." |
Still sounds like your killing the thing with a bad ground loop or something. If your battery is 100% & it's dying after 3 start attempts, you're still pissing up a rope.
1. Take off both battery leads. 2. Check the resistance from the battery ground wire to the starter body / mounting bolt. It should be less than 2-3 ohms (calibrate your DVM first to see what your baseline # is). Let me know what you get. I'd recommend getting rid of that 1-wire alt. Unless it's a street rod, the extra few wires you'll gain will be worth the low-RPM charge. Once you do this, you'll never look back. The racecar trick sounds cool, but you wind up with just about the same amount of wiring that you'd have with a normal setup. |
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welcome back to my never ending starter problem. Hopefully will get the regulars! :willy:
anyways, video's are easier than words... Why am i getting this noise from the pinion and starter, the pinion is popping out, and hitting the flywheel, but as you can see with the video, sometimes it hits, and sometimes it meshes perfectly to turn the flywheel... as of right now, i have it shimmed at .040" right now, clearly its not enough.. but will shimming it more fix the problem, won't i be going to far away with .060"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12AvWBHLB4w |
Vic --
It's so hard to diagnose this stuff over the internet... Is this the same starter you've had all along? To me it "sounds" weak... not sure if that would be because your battery is low or the starter bendix is weak - or the wiring is too light of gauge etc.... Does your battery cable connect to the starter? Does your alternator connect there too? What's the voltage of your battery? The shimming is more about the retraction of the starter motor - and to have enough clearance etc... not the actual engagement. You're having an engagement issue. Of course this could cause an engagement issue if the starter gear was too tight to the flywheel - but you seem to understand that part and I'd assume you have it shimmed just fine. Did you put a Ford starter on your Chevy??:rofl: |
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Paul |
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and as you can see the pinion hits the flywheel, it moves the flywheel, like a pushing motion, and u can see the flywheel move a tad.. battery is connected to starter, and then 12gauge to the alternator from there, the battery is fully charged also. BTW it is a new mini starter, the other one i got rid of after giving me so many problems, ended up being a issue with the pinion being bent, which i assume was after all the times the flywheel would backfire! |
What's you clearance between the pinion and flywheel. I see you are now running a stock type starter, are you running the brace?
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i was told that if it isnt a stock starter, i dont need a brace!?
Todd, either i fly you or Greg to vancouver, and i may get to drive this car by at least 2015 :rofl: |
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Good Luck!! Paul |
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If a starter will kick out like that but only spin sometimes, it's bad contacts in the solenoid. The solenoid has two functions, move the bendix gear out, and at the same time, there's a plate that completes the circuit between the two big studs on the solenoid.
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Really...... So the 30* locked out timing on my race car engine running 13:1 is just all wrong. Geez.... who knew? Paul - Not sure where you've gotten this information on base timing but it's just flat incorrect. |
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I never had THIS issue with my other starters, but I will take a look at my connection, does this mean my solenoid on the starter is no good, or just needs a better connection? ----------------------------- Greg, now now, Paul meant well! :rofl: i really appreciate all the support, at this point im taking all your guy's suggestions into consideration |
Vic ---
I know people mean well... and usually bite my tongue - but bad info is not what this forum is all about. And that was just plain BS info wise. Can't have people come on here and put up info that might be taken as "gospel" by some less knowledgeable person. We have to remember that LOTS of people read this stuff -- and many aren't members even... Any given day - there are usually more people reading than there are members.... So you (not you personally) post up crap info and people go way either thinking that Lat G is a bunch of bozos and not worth joining -- or newbies go away with some garbage info stuck in their sweet little heads. :rofl: Almost ANY of the real gearheads on here - would tell you (confirm) that Pauls timing statement is just BS. I don't know where he got that - I've certainly NEVER heard a rule like that - EVER... and I've been doing this stuff for going on 40 years now... lots of motors - lots of races - lots of car builds... I'm sure he meant well - and probably believes his statement - but he shouldn't because it's not correct. :cheers: |
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Well said Greg. I agree that piece of info is as far from the truth as it can be! Go to any Dirt Late Model race and you will see 14:1 motors locked out at 30+ degrees. An engine is an assembly of systems that need to work correctly for the whole to work. One problem can be caused directly by another. A thorough walk through of one thing at a time verifying each area is correct no matter how insignificant it may seem is sometimes the only way to solve an issue you have been working on for a long time. When frustration sets in you start going blind. (Figuratively) Step back and start at the beginning. I don't car how many starters you bought, get another one. Start over with the alignment and go from there. Breathe and take it one step at a time, but do it with a different starter. Good luck. |
yeah, but i need a mentor, too young and lack of experience makes me do stupid things lol! so....
im GOING TO BLAKE!! thanks greg, you wrench head :rofl: ill call him tomorrow, see what we can do! |
Good idea if you can.... because it could save you a motor - or some other major costly headache.
Having just run a new motor on the dyno - and spending some time in the 'cell' as they call the dyno room.. with the operators/engine builders... there was a lot of good discussion about how quickly a good motor can go bad with nothing more than running it too fat (too rich). This knocks the rings out apparently REALLY quickly and they never will seal once they're toasted. I'm not saying you've done this - or anything like it - it was just an interesting item that I learned. While motors and trannys are generally pretty 'tough' - very small things can cook their goose quite quickly. Maladjusted TV cable on a 700r4 can destroy a tranny in a few blocks... etc. The motor I just rebuilt (professionally) was a $14,000 'mistake' by the previous builder when he used flat tappet valve springs on a hydraulic roller motor... DOH! Little details like that are fatal. Ain't old cars fun!?!?!? :rofl: :woot: |
This is odd. I had the exact same problem on my camaro. It was always very bothersome. I narrowed it down to two solutions that may or may not have been the fix, I will never know as I recently sold my car and engine and trans.
1) Retard the timing a bit, and see if it starts up. 2) If #1 does not work, I would look at the flex plate being bent. I retarded the timing a great deal and it actually started a little easier than normal, with minimal(but still there) grinding. I had concerns the cam was installed wrong. After further review my engine builder flipped around and gave me good cause to believe it was not, take it for what it is worth. I trust my engine builder with my life, so I trust him with my engine's as well. |
i no longer have the grinding, it was my bendix/pinion that was out of align from being backlashed from a too far advanced dist... anyways i got a new starter, and its since then ive been having this "clicking" noise, so today i removed the starter, and gonna get it tested from the place i bought it, and tell them that i never had the problem with my old starter, which these 2 are like identical!
so i will be trying to make some good progress this weekend, and then once starter issue is dealt with, i am going to take it to blakes, to get a check on why my engine has a fuel pressure of 9psi, and drop 250-300 rpm when i put it in gear! I idle at 900-1000, and drop to 550-700 when put into gear, seems like its gonna stall when i hit the gas.. and it has before too.. itll be the day when my car has NO problems (stopping me from driving the bit*h :rofl: ) |
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Greg, I'm just getting back to this thread only to find you have thrown me under the bus. Look, 12 degrees base timing is a good setting for a street engine. With his first starter damaged and his vid showing a backfire, it looks like his base timing was too far advanced causing a kickback damaging the starter. Now are you trying to compare a street engine to a race engine that may run down the quarter mile for 10 seconds under full throttle? Here's a real world example........look at the GM performance parts catalog which lists base timing recommendations for all of it's crate engine at 10 degrees. Why do they do this? Because they are want their customers to have a good running engines in their street cars without detonation. Now lets talk about what happens when you advance an engines timing, the spark occurs before the piston reaches TDC on the compression stroke. This works well at higher rpms but can cause problems at lower rpms and if too far advanced, can cause kickback during cranking damaging starters. Paul |
It really depends on the engine. A factory type engine with a small camshaft is going to deliver higher cranking compression. A bunch of initial timing is going to shorten the life of the starter. I've always run 18-23 degrees of initial but my cam is more than likely much larger than Vic's.
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No disrespect here and I won't put words in Greg's mouth. But, when I agreed with Greg my motivation was from the generality of your comment. In general your comment is not accurate. You made no mention of race versus street in the above post. In actuality it really doesn't matter in the context of this thread. Would you want a 13.5:1 Engine locked out at 30deg. on the street maybe not. However after getting the engine running most likely with less base timing and getting it tuned, you could then lock out the timing and it would start without ill effects using a starter rated for the job. Would you want to do it with an off the shelf replacement stock starter, probably not. The point for me is that a lot of people can read these forums and some may not even be members. Not everyone has a firm grasp on all these concepts and they come here to learn and will a lot of times take what they read here as gospel. So making a comment that come off as absolute fact can be mis-leading if in fact the information is not accurate across the board. I truly suspect that Greg's intent was not to trash you and it absolutely was not my intention. It's just to correct the facts being thrown out. I can tell you first hand that I have been around a bunch of engines that start and run perfectly with the exact combination you say is a problem. Can it be a problem, absolutely. But not always. It's all good. The fact that you are willing to try and help is what's most important. In my opinion and the only reason I take the time to respond to your recent post is because I have stuck my size 14 im my mouth plenty and I'm sure I will do it again. I just use this to try and remember when I am posting advice to sure of what I am saying. And if I am wrong and get corrected, I take it as something new learned. :lateral: :cheers: :lateral: Later, |
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Paul -- Don't take it personally -- but that is just pure nonsense. Just because GM Crate motors use some timing setting doesn't mean that's best in all cases or by default is the "maximum or minimum" timing a guy should use. Detonation doesn't occur at idle. It occurs under LOAD... and generally from a too far advanced TOTAL timing setting. That is not controlled by the INITIAL timing of an engine - but rather - is controlled by the advance CURVE and the TOTAL timing of the distributor. A typical MSD distributor has multiple choices of controlling the total timing and the curve. They include in their distributors (when new) stop bushings - and several spring choices - allowing the user to customize his distributor curve etc to match the engine. For an example - if a guy changes out the stop bushing to the 18* version - his distributor would have a total advance capability of 18*. So if you wanted to have 36* total advance - then the initial would automatically begin at 18*. Timing is totally CUSTOM and depends on a great deal of factors. Head choice - cam choice - compression (really should be called cylinder pressure) - gas quality... I agree with you that too much timing will cause problems - just as too little will do. But the oldest "rule" in the book when it comes to timing - is to run as much as possible without causing detonation. What that number is - is completely variable. And it sounds to me that you're used to only running stock distributors with stock curves in them. If that's the case - then yes - 12* would be "the max" a guy could live with because when you're advancing the initial - you're also advancing the total... and in a SBC after 36* or 38* you're in trouble..But again - that would depend entirely on what the distributor is set up for. If it has 24* of advance built in - then the max initial timing you'd want to set would be @ 12* and so on. Frankly - the best way to set timing is to set it at total - and let the initial fall where it will... and adjust your idle etc to work there. If the initial is too low or too high - then you have to modify the distributor to get you to what is needed by the application. My new 408 has a total of 32* - it ran stronger and made more TQ at 32* than it produced at 34* or 36*. The MSD in it has the 18* stop bushing (giving it 14* of initial) - one light blue and one light silver spring for the curve control. My brother in laws blown 355 with iron heads and blower cam - runs 30* of initial timing and goes all the way to 32* total. It's street driven and fires and runs flawlessly. Just FYI -- back in the day (I crewed for McCulloch and Whipple) we ran 70* of timing in the nitro hemis of the day. :woot: My only point is that when someone asks "what's the best timing"? The response would be "that depends"... :cheers: |
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