Lateral-g Forums - Fuel Tanks

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GregWeld (Post 243706)

Brandon --

The Aeromotive version takes a TACH input...

It's pretty simple wiring - Ignition - power - tach.

Cool Thanks! Tach input makes sense and it's easy to get.

I'd like to thank all you guys in the know, for all the information to help me do it right the first time. Now my wife say I can't play with you guys cause it always cost me money! lol Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynieZ (Post 243765)

Wayne -- It's just a "training issue".... She has to understand... "mo money, mo betta"!

I have an agreement with my wife... I don't ask her how many pairs of shoes she has or what they cost... and she doesn't ask me how many cars I have and what they cost.

A quick story about that:

One time - there were some buddies in the shop - SHE had just come home from Portland - where I just so happen to have a few "spares" stored in my brother in laws relatively large by huge warehouse... It seems she had "toured" his warehouse for whatever reason... and she walks through the shop and says.... "so... just how many cars do you have....?" She wasn't looking for an answer - she was merely letting me know that she was now "aware" that there was more than meets the eye so to speak. My buddies still quote that line sometimes when they're here helping me do something and we all get a good chuckle out of it.

:rofl: :woot:

Just so everyone has the info in one place:

Controller

http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/products.php?prod=277

Controller Install Manual

http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/pdf/16306.pdf

Jim

Noticed while researching this project that almost everyone puts the ‘sump’ pickup at the front of the tank so the tank sides are much thicker at the front - and the profile narrows to the rear. That would certainly move the fuel towards the pickup, but for Lat/PT cars wouldn’t it be best to have the pickup point be at the rear ?

Also looking for preferences:

Pump in the tank or not ?

Bypass plumbing in the tank or not ?

Hangs by straps (OEM) or brackets/fasteners (like race version) ?

Just stuff like that...

Jim

I have a Weldon 1100A pump so I bought the Weldon Dial a flow 14000 controller. I think its about the same as the Aeromotive controller. I figured their pump so their controller.

Couple pics of aircraft flapper doors. I'm looking for the vendor to see about the price, probably high since it's aircraft rated and certified - but they are very nice parts.

Also looking at ATL's stuff from Mark's post and they do offer flapper/trap door assemblies. It's part number KS145 and are listed as $75 per kit with the trap door, door mount plate, backer plate and the hardware. That's not a bad price point.

Jim

Here's a pic of a scavenge pump to show how they work - basically bug sprayer technology. Aircraft also use a compound pump assy that combines 4 or move of these into one housing sharing a common motive flow source so as to utilize several sump pickups in different low spots in the wing tank.

Haven't found a specific source for an auto fuel cell jet pump yet - still looking. ATL has a scavenge jet pickup in their catalog on page 20, TF479 and TF667. They bond to the floor of the tank. They are $150 installed by ATL. Not sure if they sell them seperate for owner installation.

Looks like a 1 gallon 'pump fuel bucket' is the standard preference for most tank manufactures.

Jim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garage Dog 65 (Post 244014)

Nice work Jim --

And here I was thinking I was going to have to tear my toilet apart!!! They've got flapper valves!! :willy: :willy: :lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garage Dog 65 (Post 244014)

Thanks Jim for the good info. How about if i just cut open the top of my ricks tank and weld there box around the pump / pickup unit with those atl trap doors ?

Could be "easy" solution ?

That should be much better then the standard walls with slots and holes to control slosh on a normal road car - just depends on how you plan to use the car (brisk road use or some real auto-x / road course driving) will determine if you need the next level of fuel control and additional costs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by formula (Post 243630)

wow, some awesome info in this thread for sure!!

Does anybody have any sort of link, or any way they can lead me to more information about or a source automotive jet pumps? I've tried to hunt down info on the 'vette and the cts-v setup and am getting nowhere...Seems like a jet pump might be a wiser way to do a surge tank (albeit still not as wise as an internal setup).

It's not called jet pump in the parts manuals. It's listed as Fuel Pump Left or Right. Confussing huh... It technically is a fuel pump - just not electric. PS, It's the Right side unit.

GM/AC Delco, Bosch and Carter make them. There are 2 versions - Early C5 is side loaded while later C5 and C6 are top loaded.

GM Left is 19133432 Right is 19133425 (check the AC/Delco Parts web page)
Bosch Left is 67434 Right is 67433

I'll post up some pics.

Jim

First 2 are Early C5 and load into the tank from the side.

The rest are late C5 (2004 and Up) and C6 units and load from the top of the tank.

Next is the exploded parts diagram of the system. (and prices ...gulp)

Jim

2 saddle tanks - a Left and Right. Fuel pump is in left tank. Line comes out from the pump and enters the right tank jet pump in. Motive fuel goes through the line and siphons fuel from the right tank and right tank fuel exits to the left tank and enters keeping it filled. The right tank empties first keeping left tank filled for cooling of pump.

Prices are listed on the attached pics are for C6. Looked on internet and found several vendors offering AC Delco units at $300 each. Pump flow control module is $120.

I've also seen the Walbro pump kit for the above at $325.

Jim

Outstanding Jim. You beat me to it. I found the Delco numbers the other day. I just haven't had time to pull it together and post it. I have been fabricating an exhaust system. WooHoo! I have not been able to locate the ring that would weld into the tank to mount the pump module. They seem to sell replacement retainer rings though. Honestly, the prices are not bad if you compare to the A1000 and pump controller along with a pre-filter. If we can get some dimensions of the pump module, I will try to get started on a model of a cell to start to illustrate the system. Keep up the good wrk. You da man! :thumbsup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garage Dog 65 (Post 244121)

What's the deal with number 7 on this diagram? It's a fortune, is it really needed?

Hi Chad,

Have you thought about the style of tank you'll use yet ? A single box with all the stuff inside - or how about about 2 saddle tanks (driveshaft going down the middle) hanging just under/behind the cab below the bed ? (like the P-57 truck unit here on the site) Then you could replicate the C6 system above which is good up to 600 to 1000 hp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccracin (Post 244127)

What's the deal with number 7 on this diagram? It's a fortune, is it really needed?

Not sure yet. I haven't looked at the C6 manual to see what it does to determine if it's a must have item. This is the LS9 parts diagram. CTS or LS3 vette might not use it - or have a lower cost item.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garage Dog 65 (Post 244130)

Our first thought was to put it behind the rear end under the bed. This is before the dual tank idea was kicked around here. It would be possible with they way we are doing the exhaust, I just don't know if the extra cost is needed. I think the cts-v pump module has the jet pump built in to fill it's canister. I'm guessing this would be the one to use in a single tank. I guess I am still open to suggestions if we can hammer out more of the details. The engine we ordered will be right at 600hp, so this should be doable.

Here's the CTS-V pump info and pic. $345.00 AC Delco price. GM #19207950 and ACD # M10235 Nice unit - good choice Mark - I see why you selected this one. How'd you like to have to make the dies for that tank ??

Early C5 fuel tanks and pumps.

ok.. I'm a little confused. I'm almost to the fuel system on my car and been doing research.

I've got a heads and cam LS1, should put down 450rwhp. I was going to run the rock valley tank, with a walbro 255 pump (intank). Was going to use a c5 fuel regulator mounted in back.

Now, I'm thinking I may have problems.. Am I over thinking this? I'd Rather spend extra money now and do it right first time.. suggestions..

I do mostly street driving, with some track time.. I'd like to get into autocross, but not on regular basis..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose (Post 245870)

I drive and race my car hard. It has a ricks tank with internal walbro pump and an external vette regulator. I can run down to 1/2 tank on track with race tires no problem. On the street I can go close to empty with no problems.

At Gingerman last June I started with a full tank and made it to the 3rd 20 min session when I started to feel the fuel starvation in extended cornering situations. My setup is currently 420 rwhp and will drop to roughly 6 mpg on the track.

Thanks Matt..

I think I'll go with the ricks narrowed tank then. I plan on mini tubbing one of these days. :D

What are the specs on the CTS-V pumps?

Flow rating, horsepower limit, that sort of stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobG (Post 247464)

Anyone?

Just assume that it's fair to say - the latest model versions can handle 550 hp... Since that's what the CTS-V engine is rated at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregWeld (Post 247468)

Just assume that it's fair to say - the latest model versions can handle 550 hp... Since that's what the CTS-V engine is rated at.

That's a good estimate. It might go 600 na as the CTS-V is supercharged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregWeld (Post 247468)

Just assume that it's fair to say - the latest model versions can handle 550 hp... Since that's what the CTS-V engine is rated at.

I was curious for comparisons sake. If Mark Stielow put this unit in to support a ZR1 powerplant and that's 630hp I'm wondering what it's good up to. Seems like a sweet deal regardless.

Thanks guys.:)

Sorry Rob - you wouldn't believe how difficult it is to get info on new parts from GM ... I spent an entire day looking and calling for info with no luck.

I called the AC Delco tech assistance line. That is contracted out by GM to a company that performs tech work for many of the OEMs including Porsche lambo, etc. They could answer my spec info request on the part - but I would need to setup an account first - then it would cost $3.25 for each question - and $3.25 per minute for them to answer the question.

So unless Mark can provide the info from the inside - or a member with access to the info can add it - I'll have to setup an account and pay.

GM # 19207950 and ACD # M10235

I have also tried to get the name of the supply vendor for the venturi jet component used in the early C5 Fuel Sender/Jet Pump unit - but no one will give that out as it's still proprietary.... been making those since what 1998 ? So I have bought a couple used assy's off e-bay for $20 bucks and will piece meal the setup together.

Man I'm spoiled from aviation ... the supply vendor's name is right there next to the part number in the illustrated parts catalog - WITH their address and phone number.

Rant off...

:cheers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stielow (Post 242951)

I answered a Post on Pro-Touring and thought I would add it here also...

Back in 1993 I had my first experiences with a ’69 Camaro and add on EFI fuel pumps. I bolted the pump to the frame rail added a return port to the tank and started to drive the car. As I was walking back to my house after the car quit for the 2nd time I had time to reflect on where I had gone wrong. The stock ’69 Camaro fuel pick up sock was falling apart and sending crap from in to my pump causing it to fail.

I added a pre-filter and solved that problem. I left for One Lap of America and the engine would fuel starve at anything lower than half a tank on road courses. I also blew the high pressure fuel line off the fuel pump at Michigan International Raceway and had a large fire that year. (Kyle Tucker was driving at the time and had to bail out of the car) The fuel pump I was using only had barb fittings on it. The high cornering loads at MIS caused the line to pull part way off. But not enough to kill the engine.

•Lesson 1 Stock fuel pick ups won’t work
•Lesson 2 Don’t use barb fittings

On the Red Witch I used an ATL fuel cell with a remote mounted fuel pump. It worked fine just a pain to fill at the gas station with the foam in it. It also required cutting the trunk out of the car. It would pull down to about a ¼ tank before fuel starvation.

•Lesson 3 Fuel Cells work

When I was building the Trasher I added a “Fuel Bucket” to the inside of the stock tank. The ATL (http://www.atlinc.com/catalogs.html) (Page 20 – 21) fuel bucket had 3 check balls in it and the fuel pick up. I added a sump to the rear of the tank and put the fuel bucket in it. To get access to the inside of the tank I cut an access hole in the top of the tank. I closed out the hole in the tank with an ATL tank plate and back up ring. ATL no longer sells these due to a law suit. It also always seemed to seep a little fuel after you filled the fuel tank. I think this was due to the lack of a proper vent and pressure would build up in the tank and push fuel past the gaskets.

That system worked OK. I could use the fuel down to ¼ tank on a race track. I didn’t like the idea of cutting and welding the stock tank. I lined the inside of the tank after I modified them to keep them from rusting. It was all a pain. I used something similar to this on the Mule. Both of these set up uses external Bosch fuel pumps.

I had Ricks build me a stainless steel tank for Camaro X with the check balls and a fuel bucket in the tank and a Walbro pump in the tank. It worked OK and would pull fuel down to ¼ tank on track. On this tank Rick’s still had not sorted out the vent and it would push fuel out of the tank when full. I added a vent to the filler neck that tied into the Rick’s vent and seem to reduce the problem.

•Lesson 4 Fuel Buckets work fair

When I did Jack Ass I had had years of experience with low fuel handling problems at work.

A little background. People suggested using two fuel pumps and a surge tank. This will work on a race car but will not work in production. Fuel pumps need fuel to lubricate them. Transfer pumps will work for a while dry but not very long. If you plan to use electric fuel pump to feed a surge tank then some day you will burn up your transfer pumps.

What we came up with is a fuel pump setup that sits in its own buck the fills the bucket with “jet” pumps. Jet pump are siphon pumps that use some of the fuel flow to run through an orifice to create a pressure drop to pump fuel. Many factory fuel pumps have jet pumps. Many new cars have split fuel tanks and need one jet pump to keep the bucket full and one to pull fuel from the other half of the tank. Corvettes have two tanks connected by a transfer tube and Cadillac CTS’s have saddle tanks and a transfer tube. I had Hector at Rick’s build me a split tank for a ’69 Camaro with the ring in it to allow a stock CTS-V fuel pump module. The fuel pump module sits on one half and a ½” tube runs to the other side of the tank to pick up fuel.

During the Motorstate Challenge Charley and I forgot to put fuel in JA after the road race Saturday night due to doing a photo shoot. We went to the Autocross the next day. Again we forgot to add fuel. I did my 3 runs then Charley got into the car and made two runs. Waiting to make the third run he noticed the fuel gauge "E". Charley made 1 more run on the autocross course with no fuel stumble before we could get more fuel. So the set up we have will pull the tank to empty in a heavy lateral environment.

•Lesson 5 Stock stuff works!

I went through 5 tanks from Rick’s before I got something that I feel works. I would like to thank Hector for all his help building me one off tanks. I consider this all development. There later tanks also have the vent system working much better now.

A quick note on fuel pumps. If you run a big pump for a long time at low consumption like on Hot Rod Power Tour they over heat. (ask Charley or Jody) I like stock style intake pumps with FSCMs to step down the voltage at cruise to help to not heat up the fuel.

Now the down side – none of this is cheap. Just my 2 cents…

Mark :lateral:

Lesson 6 Stock stuff only works if you have access to the information needed to apply it properly!

C'mon Mark, you wet our whistle now satisfy our thirst! Any information would again, be greatly appreciated. Your experience would be invaluable to those of us that would like to try using the stock stuff. Thanks for any help you can give. :cheers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garage Dog 65 (Post 247696)

I appreciate the effort but no need to pay those yahoo's for a simple answer, that's a joke. Like I said earlier I would just like some specs for comparisons sake because I am a big fan of using factory stuff in my hot rods because they are usually a lot more durable and a lot easier to get (replacements) than aftermarket.

I found a few items on "fuel surge" tanks that most of the STI and Honda guys are running. This is basically a high/low pressure system with a very small tank for the FI pump. This looks like a potential solution to the problem without having to build two separate tanks, just place inline and use a low pressure pump to feed from the main tank. Here are a couple links:

http://www.ratdat.com/?p=168

http://sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm

Hope this helps.

Ok, welp, I read the piece about the surge tank from Stielow, ok back to drawing board.

JE

I appoligize for bringing back this old thread, but I was wanting to see if any headway was made on this subject?

Phillip

This is not dead, just simmering. GarageDog and I will be seeing this project through for our vehicles. We both have other commitments right now. :( When we make some progress, we will post it up. Let us know if you come up with anything! :thumbsup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by steinepstein (Post 250470)

Ok, welp, I read the piece about the surge tank from Stielow, ok back to drawing board.

JE

I was thinking of doing this as well, but back to Stielow... I agree that a pump that isn't moving any fuel is not being cooled or lubricated, but in this picture below, the low-pressure, high-volume rear pump is always flowing good volume, and the the high-pressure low volume FI pump at the front is doing what it would otherwise be doing if it were just sucking gas from the regular tank and sending it all the way forward to the engine. Maybe throw cooling fins on the surge tank or a cooler on the return from the FPR, and another cooler on return from surge -> main tank... where would heating and lubrication issues come from? I'm in 4th year of mechanical so feel free to explain all "engineery like' if need be!

Thanks,
Joe

....

http://sdsefi.com/fuelsys.gif

Mine was more low buck. And I'm going to change out the barb fittings for some screw on stuff. I took a factory re-pop NEW 1967 GTO tank and welded in an Aeromotive sumped and baffled road race style addition. It comes with AN-10 and AN-12 inlet and outlet. With a possible provision for a breather. It works wonderful. There are more expensive setups. But I've found mine to be the best bang for the buck for the home shade tree guys like myself.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...Picture185.jpg

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...Picture184.jpg

Holy S&$t TMI
i used the new Aeromotive Stealth fuel cell and all the related parts.
the A1000 pump is mounted verticaly in the cell, with a machined Bell about 1/4" from the bottom of the cell in a box that also is fed by the return.
so i run a from the pump a -8 supply to a inline 10micron filter up to the rear pass side fuel rail, cross over at the front to the drivers rail then out to the firewall mounted reg , then a -6 return to the cell. i also run a -8 vent, the fuel does get hot, the cell is between the mufflers and the heat comming off the exhaust runs right over it but the pump will work untill there is about 1/2 of fuel in the cell, so maybe 1.5 gallons left.
i run the Black braided hose which might help insulate the fuel a bit.
i couldn't be happier.
the system was put together with the help of Aeromotive and i think now i have a good handle on it.
my .02