I don't know boys. We have not learned much detail on the Motion SuperCoupe, but if you look at the engineering involved in Time Machine's Six Shooter 'cuda, the competition may be closer than you think.

http://www.timemachinesinc.com/6shooterpics.htm

I'm not trying to be a Mule heretic, I just think we're entering a new era where full frame cars with engine setback, channeled bodies and 4 wheel independent suspension will dominate.

As for thrashing the Johnson 'Cuda: If one can afford the entry fee, then one can afford the repairs.

Steve- I agree with you on all of the above. No doubt Time Machine builds some killer stuff. The world of these cars are evolving & changing daily. It's cars like Motion's Camaro & Johnson's Cuda the keeps forward progress in the hobby. If the envelope doesn't get pushed, the hobby will go stagnet. It's kinda like racing..You always want to go faster.

As far as the Cuda, I can't afford the repairs, much less the entry fee!! LOL!!

Like several have said, it would depend on my plans. Giving both cars were free, if I was selling, I guess it would be the motion car. I would think 427K+ tax would be getting dangerously close to double the value of the mule. I may be a bit short, but surely the mule could be duplicated for 250K-300K. Regardless, I am sure Charley would intertain offers less than the 427K asking price for the motion car.Having looked the motion car over pretty good, there are things I did not like. At the asking price, one can be picky.
As far as driving, no doubt the mule. It was purposely built to be driven, not sit on a revolving stand. I really doubt even those with deep pockets will actually drive the motion cars.

i vote for the motion car , as soon as i got it i would change the wheels .

My vote is for the Mule, clean, simple and functional. The Motion car's looks + price are way over the top.

I totally agree! I like Mark's 'KISS' approach to his builds, it makes them updated but timeless at the same time...this I am a huge fan of!

The Motion car has a few things I really like...but I have to say, it is leaning towards Pro-Show with the over the top design and all that red. My fear is that PT, L-G cars will get to showy and not as drivable...remember this is what killed Pro Street, they just got unusable!

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for detailed cars, after all, I've spent weeks now finish welding and smoothing the welds on the bottom of my car so I can shoot it body color and have it look like something...but the suspension and engine wont be all polished out like a show car...I'm going for the clean, detailed, and fully functional look, everythig will remain raw aluminum or be painted black.

My vote is for The Mule...the one you could actually drive on the street or track without stressing about the over the top price tag. Not that The Mule isn't worth a small fortune... I just see it worth EVERY penney it would take to buy it, knowing it would be much less than the Motion price tag...I personally don't see any camaro worth 400k...especially when others can have the exact same thing...that should be one-off pricing at best! See the Mule is one up right there!

Oh, and as for the Mule's wheels, I love them! I think they are perfect for it's personality...after all, the car is almost a sleeper with the silver paint, very clean lines, quiet exhaust, and damn near hidden cage...Damn I love that car!!

Charley I need a ride next time I'm in Ca!!

mule! mule! mule! and charlie if i had the money the mule would be mine. just waiting to win the lotto. :yes:

barry

I think the Motion's Camaro could probably be build for around $300K. The rest of the cost is profit for the motion guys who are not turning a nut.

This survey is kinda slanted my way because of the site. If you posted the same survey on Camaro's.net or Hot Rod's forum you might get a very different answer.

Damn voice of reason. Where the hell did you come from? :P



In all honesty, I still prefer the Mule. It's silver. Ok, so it's not just that. It's because at a simple look that you would get at a stop light, people would just see a nice car. They wouldn't know what it really is. The Motion camaro is a LOT of attention. That's also a reason I like Pasqual's brothers car. Simple, yet DAMN!!!!

Steve, that six-shooter Cuda had alot of very nice craftsmanship and unique ideas in its build, but it was somewhat of a 'poser' as far as performance was concerned. The Viper engine in the car was completely stock, they just had a ProCharger slapped on it. Not even a cam swap. It also had exhaust manifolds and tiny exhaust pipes with a nice 90 deg bend at the bottom.

http://www.timemachinesinc.com/pics/...gallery/30.jpg

I was parked right next to the Cuda at one of the Year One events. We got to talk quite a bit about cars and performance, and those guys thought they had my lil 348ci LS1 covered. So, I asked them to line the car up against mine since we were at a drag strip, and they sounded interested until I told them mine ran 10s already. lol. I should have just lined them up and blistered that Cuda down the track, telling them my car ran 12s.

Here is a pic:
http://www.ls1tech.com/Commerce2004/images/DSC03957.jpg

As for this thread, I would go with the Mule. The Motion car looks kind of gaudy to me, almost fake. I prefer the original body lines of a 69 Camaro, and that twin-turbo system that W2W built makes me drool.

Tony

So what do we have?

I had to read between the lines on a few replies, but I count:

27 Mules to 5 Motions. Damn near 6:1. When you consider that the Mule is about 4 years old and the Motion car is the "trick of the week", the response ratio is even more impressive.

I have to agree with Steve O here. Charlie is a cool kat, Stielow is still the granddaddy of pro touring, and Mule is still the holy grail of Pro Touring, but, full chassis, independent suspensions, and the like are the natural evolution of the hobby on the high end builds.

The Motion car is over done for my personal taste in body styling, and I really dislike the lack of wheel lip and buldged quarter panels. But besides my personal taste issues with styling, the engineering seems to be there.

I also agree the Six Shooter was a bit of a Poser as Tony mentioned, but I think that could easily be over come with some shaking out and tuning, and a few component swaps. But the Six Shooter has to be givin it's due also. It is a bad beotch, and it is about 3 years old now. Way ahead of the curve in my opinion. I will be the first to admit when we built Prodigy, The six shooter was on our mind, minus the entire poser thing that is.

car
 

I think what Steve (shrifter man) wrote was great. Charley I think if everybody could drive both, it would be the Mule for sure in a landslide.

The motion car will get better, tire/wheel set up sucks, get those big tires on the edge of the fender, get some depth to the wheels, then it will at least appear to function better.

Still take the Red Witch over both.....

Well, that means there are 27 leg humpers for The Mule. With that many legs and a proportionately higher amount of "Humpees" you'd better rename The Mule The Centipede.

Charley, you suck but your car is Cool. Slant that. :D

LMAO!! Jim, you crack me up. :lolhit:

Mule! I like the color, 200mph doesnt hurt either, it shows the timeless lines of the Camaro. Its not over done. Heck if you pulled up to a light with both cars the motion will get the attention but the stockness of the Mule will only leave you seeing its taillights. I also really like the fact that if I owned it and broke it I could fix it, doubt you would know where to start on the Motion. Plus another thing I thought of while writing this, if you owned the Motion and you took drove it to dinner you would be a nervous wreck wondering if it will still be parked where you left it. The Motion is just to much of a attention getter. I bet you could get a speeding ticket with it at a stop sign. So in closing Mule.

I'd take the Baldwin Motion Camaro. The only reason being that I can sell it for $400,000.

The Mule I wouldn't part with. No way....no how. :D

Can I have both? :D

There's a lot of truth in that, though it's only a part of why the Mule is coming out ahead. With this site, the votes will always slant towards proven performance and who built it versus history and value. Not that there's anything wrong with that though. It would certainly be different on the collector/restoration sites.

Kris

I can say my vote is not a leg humper vote. lol. Mule is a well sorted out purpose built vehicle and Charley has the W2W receipts to prove it. The Motion Camaro's are being built to sell a name and there will be multiples of the same vehicle sitting in several collections. I agree that many of the concepts in the Motion car are the next evolution, but the overall package is not for me.

Now a better comparison IMO would be Johnson's Cuda. It is a equally over the top car like the Motion car but has a purpose other than money. I don't know the Johnson's and would have to pick the Cuda in that vote.

Mike

Da Mule.

The sheetmetal mods and interior on the Motion car, while displaying awesome craftsmanship, kinda gave me...well...Motion Sickness.

The Mule,
There's just something I don't like about the Baldwin-Motion camaro. The Mule looks like I could drive it every day, practical and real. The B-M is too much show for me.

Mule for sure. Motion car is nice, but I wouldn't ever own a car I couldn't drive. I like Stielows builds because they are straight to the point, good clean cars with crazy engineering.

Probably not, but I'm wondering if the responses would be any different if the Motion car was on the ground instead of on that stand that tries to show off the different angles of the car. Not only was it raised in the air, but one side looked lower than the other.... just wonderin'
I do like the Mule if I had to choose, probably because I've drooled over it for so long, and some of the things done to the Motion car just look strange, like the rear of the car. Maybe it will take some time to get used to... no questioning that the detail on it looked incredible...

Enough said for me.

Its kinda funny that out of ~my~ top three (with a tie for first) f-bodies..... Charley owns three of them. And it order it would be:

Red Witch / Thrasher
Mule
Big Red

El Mule.

...but I really like his Mustang.

I would have to see a head to head Road and Track style test to determine which one......................better yet, I wuld have to perform the test Myself.

Hey Charlie, can I borrow the Mule for 20 min track session?

Who made the diff. and a arms in the Motion Camaro? :cool:

I was under the impression it was a dressed up C4 set up...may be wrong though

Now a better comparison IMO would be Johnson's Cuda. It is a equally over the top car like the Motion car but has a purpose other than money. I don't know the Johnson's and would have to pick the Cuda in that vote.

Mike

One thing some of us saw at "teardown" of SEMA. The Johnson Cuda did not have a turn radius to speak of. When they were pushing out the car, Jody, Scott, Myself and others watched as they had to back up, turn, back up, turn to make a 90 degree left hand turn. May not be significant, but then again, it might be.

Hmmmmm...

Sema
 

Not to beat a dead horse, its really dead at this point, but when I looked at all the cars at SEMA, I tried to put myself behind the wheel of each car. That is why I would still choose the Mustang over all others there, just because it looked easy to drive and fun. Of course just my opinion. Those Mopar cars just didn't look nimble to. Bitchin cars, but..

Jim, you can do stand - up in vegas at night. Funny Mo Fo......

The C4 uses a 4 trailing arm style suspension. The Motion car looks to use a double a arm set up.

ya I just went a looked at some more of scotss pics...It does appear to be a double a arm type rear suspension........ :(

I thought the rear was a Viper Dana 44.

Charlie is mostly correct, It is a C5 Corvette arms and a Viper differential. A funny thing is I had a call from someone claiming to want to build the ultimate Pro Tour car, and we discussed a chassis and Viper / C5 set up with a Quafe diff. Hum! I guess I am not the only one to dream that up. That guy did just vanish when it was time to count down. About 6 months ago! That's OK, I did not reveal everything.

Function, function, function.

Id take the Mule, Thrasher, or Witch over the Motion car any day of the week.

All three look more than bad-ass and back it up with REAL performance, and I wouldn't be terrified of eating an In-n-Out and sucking down a strawberry milkshake in one of them on my way to the track.

hmm... The Arms didn't look like a C5 to me but they could be. I can't see enough from the pics to tell. Vipers have double a arms too. The shock looks to be off a Viper but it could be something custom to remove the leaf spring from the C5. Vipers and ZF6 C4s both ran a Dana 44 hung on a batwing style mount. The motion webstie did say a D44 was used. Thanks for the info.

No article but one of the featured cars on this site looks to a have a C5 rear and Ford 8.8" IRS chunk but it could be an 04 Corbra rear. That would be an interesting/fairly economical setup. https://lateral-g.net/members/sinjem/Photo0372.jpg