Tony --

This is why I said to him earlier -- I wouldn't trust whoever is building the car for him. He's giving him total BS guidance if this is what he's telling him. Or the guy (builder) is clueless. Nobody would build a modern build from the ground up - and put a Richmond 5 speed (non OD) behind a big block built Pontiac. It would be different (MAYBE) if he planned to race it or something like that - where there was a clear reason why you'd do that... but in this case - no such plan has been offered.

RON -- When you say your builder is experienced... what does that mean? Is he a bodyman? A general service shop? A restoration expert? What? What else is he telling you to do with your car?? Spill it all out here and let us try to see what's going on. Do you have pictures you can post? Of the shop? Of the car? Of "before and after"?

Great lesson.

I am trying to soak in all the knowledge I can about my car and cars in general. I know I can't learn everything over night.

My car is totally disassembled. It has been media blasted and is in apoxy waiting on metal work to start. He actually has not started on my car at all. I try and go to the shop once a week to look at the progress on the other cars in the shop. When I hang out with him I tend to ask questions about the other builds in the shop. Why did he do this, what's he going to do with this, etc. He explains things to a T. There has been several nights I left the shop with the sun coming up. When I am in the shop we usually talk about the plans for my car. And with each part of the plan I usually ask why do it that way and what are the other choices out there. My builder never pushes anything on me. He gives me options on everyting. I ask alot of questions about my car and I sometimes tend to go overboard.

Thanks.

The intended use is for the street. But listening to you guys on here talk about the autocross at places like the Good Guys shows makes me want to try it out.

Hp- 550-650??

Rear not sure.

Highway- I would like to hit the highway a cruise to different gatherings and events and weekend cruise in's, etc.

I want to drive my car and have fun with it on dry, nice days. I have had the car for 28+ years and it has been down for oh I don't know maybe 15 years so I want to drive it again.

Thanks.

If he's not 'pushing' stuff on you - and if he's steering you to make the right choices... Then why the heck is he trying to sell you a Richmond 5 speed?

Those two statements don't mesh. I'm not trying to argue with you here - what I'm trying to do is to "enlighten" you just a little bit... or at the very least to start to question who's judgement you're going to follow.

If you hang here long enough - and really read the build threads... you'll find there are people here that have built some pretty serious stuff.. some of us have been building these cars for years and years (about 40 for me personally)... and there is a collective "experience" here that you are (and should continue to) seeking advice from. Advice, however, is different from a total education about every nuance of a build... It seems to me that you don't really have a plan for you build yet. That is a dangerous way to start out. You don't plan these builds as you go. You set a plan - parts selection - looks - feel - paint etc out all in advance. Pro touring cars are a matched set of parts - not a collection of what you can get cheap - or used - or someone has laying around (that is how you build a Rat Rod).

I asked you earlier in this thread - what are your plans for the car - and what are the major parts you plan to use. Engine? Rear end and suspension. Front end suspension. Tire sizes - Wheel sizes. Gearing. etc. How do you plan to use the car? Weekend cruising or Auto X'n or Drag racing or all or what? Because this knowledge makes a HUGE difference on what advice someone would give you. If you don't plan to make huge power and only want to drive to car shows within 50 miles of your house and sit in a parking lot all day and then drive home - you could stick in a 4 speed and probably be happy. If you want drive up the California coast and be able to handle the twisties - then an overdrive transmission is a better choice. If you plan to actually be able to use some of the HP that you've tossed out - then you need a rear end and tires that will allow that. You put a 550 hp Pontiac in there and try to run that into a 10 bolt - and want to be able to light the tires up whenever you want to - you'll be FORD in no time flat. So give us a build sheet...

My post crossed with yours ---

I'm going to sound really negative here - and I'm not trying to be - what I'm trying to be is dead on honest and I'm trying to HELP you so read it in that light.

Statements like what you've just posted above - are the worst types of "builds" to start with. YOU don't have a real vision for what you want with the car - and that - I can tell you from experience - will lead to a car that isn't going to make you happy - and is going to cost you more money and take longer to build. Here's why I say that.

You've already "changed" what you want out of the car... a driver - that can auto X - and go for cruises because "maybe" you'd like to try that. You have a HP number in your mind - but don't have a rear end choice - and we know you don't have a tranny choice yet. My guess is you haven't even thought about tire/wheel size... and you don't mention anything about suspension... Or BUDGET. Are you on a budget? Or can you just CL it and throw whatever it takes to get 'er done?

A budget will determine what parts get suggested for a build. Big different between the parts on a $35K build - and a $150K build. Are you a competitive guy - ie - you go to a show - do you want to trophy? Or are you happy just to hang out. Ditto - let's say you enter a local Auto X -- and kind of like it (it's addicting) -- are you going to be happy finishing 12th... or are you the type that is going be planning how to improve big time? It doesn't make any difference to anyone here - what personsality you are - but it does - IF YOU'RE HONEST ABOUT IT - help us to guide you. It also helps to connect the personal type (A vs B) with the budget. A type A with limited budget - can build a great handling car on leaf springs (think POZZI'S car for an example - he/she beat everyone in the Auto X - on leaf springs!) - or a type A with a hefty wallet - can build a car with all the "stuff" that they're going to end up with anyway... so if you can afford it - might as well do it now - rather than build the car about 4 different times (Me <---------).

:cheers:

It took me almost 2 years to find the builder I am using. At car shows and gatherings I would ask everyone for information about builders and restorers. When I found my builder, Mike, I talked to him for several months about his experience, his knowledge about cars, his past builds, plans for my car, etc. before he came and picked up my '69. I am a very picky person and I have owned my '69 Firebird for 28+ years and the car is like family to me (odd to say). I got 10 references and talked to a few car owners. 2 guys are even return customers with more than one car.

Mike works out of his large and very nice and clean shop at his house. At the monent he is the lone worker in the shop but has a brother and nephew who help him out from time to time. The shop has its different areas...tear down area, body work area, paint booth, and finishing area. Mike does it all from start to finish. But in the beginning to told Mike that I may part out certain parts of the car like the motor, rear end, etc.

Eventhough I am not a gear head I have helped out by tearing down certain parts of the car, cleaning and media blasting small parts and doing what I can to learn and to save (hourly) money. I have spent many hours in the shop and have learned by this process more about my car.

I have many photos of my car. Not sure if I have too many of the shop. I am at work so I will try and post them soon.

But in general I have faith in my builder. Even though my build has not started we talk back and forth about idea's for my car which are not always set in stone. And of course I will have the final say so before certain work begins and which direction I go. And I will always come on this site to get idea's and opinions from all you guys.

Thanks.

Sounds good....

:cheers:

I'm sure he's a perfectly good wrench and does quality work. Here's the deal. He may not be experienced in this genre. Going from a turbo 350 to a richmond is probably a nice upgrade. You get the point. When I speak, I speak from experience. It's not because of some parts I have sitting in the corner or what somebody else told me. I built my car, I drive my car, I race my car, I've worked countless bugs out of my car... This site is at the top of the heap as far as innnovation goes. Most of us are chasing the ultimate pro touring car. With that said, don't get sucked into always buying the newest and best thing out there if you have something that works. Only you know what your budget and expectations are. Do yourself a favor and sit down and think about you car, budget, and expectations and put it in writing BEFORE you start slinging money around. Frank @ Prodigy Customs is a really good resource for parts and advice.

I think the bottom line is that everyone with experience with the Richmond is telling you that you probably will not be happy with it. There are better choices.

I am also new to all of this. The advice I have recieved from everyone on this forum and everyone that responded to your questions has been dead on and saved me a ton of headaches. I trust these guys to give me sound advice witout bias.

I hope your build goes well for you and that you get the car of your dreams. But do your research, make a solid plan and then stick to it. Making changes part way through will cost you more time and money that you can imagine.
:cheers:

This is what I would like to have:

455+ CI (with mods)
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread)
Mini Tubes
335 tires
Wheels (difficult decision-Probably Boze)-Size similiar to Todd Akes set up.
Like to have the DSE sub
Rear 12" (from DSE if I go the total package)
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc.

I want to get the car out on nice days. I want to hit the interstate and the curvy back roads and just drive. I want a nice show like car but I plan on driving it. The auto X would be fun to get into but the wheels and tires I plan on using is not correct for the course.

The budget vision of the car is $50 plus. I don't have all the necessary money up front which will cause the build to take longer. (and my builder know this)

In general I have a vision for my '69. I know what I want but it needs to be fine tuned.

Thanks.

This is the ultimate site. You guys in here are extremely good at what you do. If I only had half the experience and know how.

I try to step back when I see a new product and like you said not get sucked into buying it because even though it is new it may not be the best or cost efficient for my build. But I like to upgrade in areas like handling, etc.

I guess I should sit down and write out what I want for the car and what I want to get out of the car.

I did send Frank a privite message to chime in on my thread.

Thanks.

Yea, the guys in here know their stuff. I have been behind the scenes for a while reading everyone's problems and solutions. The advice in here is priceless.

I plan on talking to my builder this weekend.

Thanks.

I had emailed Richmondgear.com several days ago asking about their Richmond 5-Speed. I just got a return email. Thought I would post it anyway. His response:

"If this is a Richmond 5-speed, it would be the same as we manufacture today. The Street 5-speed is a 1.00 to 1 direct drive trans. Not an od. With proper rear gear ratio it can act like an od just from the stand point of reduced rpms. 2.73-3.08 rear gears would allow the trans act as an od."

455+ CI (with mods) - figure $6K - $8K or so for a good reliable build (with carb, not EFI) at the power levels you're talking about
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread) - Figure $6.5K plus labor
Mini Tubs - Probably $2K (including third party labor)
335 tires & Wheels - Anywhere from $3K to $5K
Like to have the DSE sub - Another $7K or so
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc. - Like Recaros? Figure another $2.5K

So I make it about $29K before body work, paint, powder coating, interior, sound and heat insulation, gauges, HVAC, radio, electrical, engine accessories, headers and exhaust, clutch, fuel system, brakes, engine cooling, transmission, subframe connectors, and all of the other small bits (weather stripping, trim, emblems, etc.).

Your $50K budget is toast already.

To give you some idea, I'm building a '68 Camaro with aftermarket subframe and rear suspension, nice (but not custom) interior, really good seats, BUDGET paint, budget wheels, a GMPP 376/480 engine and so on, and I'll have about $80K - $90K in the car, not including the cost of the car. I've done all the work to the car except media blasting, rust repair and paint and body, so there's very little labor in that number. I have all of the major components sitting here already and I'm in the process of doing final assembly, yet I still find myself ordering $500 worth of stuff from here and $500 worth of stuff from there.

A counter example. I have my "driver" '68 Camaro with stock subframe, stock control arms, Guldstrand mod, SBC, T56, leaf springs, 10 bolt rear and C5 Corvette wheels on adapters. I track the car, take it on multi-thousand mile summer trips, play in the local mountains, etc. It would cost less than a third of what the '68 I'm building will cost to duplicate the "driver" but it's still a fun car that gets lots of comments.

This is a very expensive hobby, and can get totally out of control if you're not careful. So I urge you, as everyone else already has, to sit down and figure out what you want to do, and what it will cost; then double it and that'll be a decent estimate of what it will cost. When that number stuns you, start paring your project and figuring out what's really important and what's not. You may find that a modest build will do everything you want, including being affordable and a project you can actually complete.

I would not mess with the Richmond. I would do TKO600, T56 Magnum, We will have the New Mcloeds in early spring. But no Richmond.

If $50k is our number, we are going to need to trim a few things. A little project planning would go a long way for you.

Let me know if I can be of any help

Well.... I'm glad you guys jumped in here on this "budget vs wish list" -- 'cause when I saw it - I said to myself.... "Self!... and Self says to me... Greg!... the list of mods and the list of money don't match...

Ron --- I'm being "funny" here - but it's not funny of course. Cars are like remodeling a house... you make a wish list ... get some "bids" -- then tear into the job. The wife then says -- Well... as long as we're here we might as well do X and X... to which you agree - and then you add - well if we're going to do X and X then I want to do Y and Z... and then the builders budget has change order charges - and you start with the cost overruns. It's why people hate remodel jobs. Personally, I absolutely LOVE remodeling houses - because I don't care what it costs and normally don't even ask for a bid - I just say "this is what I want - is this good or can we do it better"? "What else should we do to make it killer?"

Many of the cars on here - are of the later... in other words - they're exercises in "how do I want it done? Period". "Is it done yet?" LOL

I agree with Frank and Mc - that said - you'll have to do some serious soul searching and figure out what you're going to be willing to sacrifice to the budget god. You can build your car with your budget... but not with the list you tossed out there. If it was me... I'd skip the:

DSE clip and go with Tubular control arms New springs and good shocks
add a sway bar

If the car was a big block - you already have a good rear end? If not - go with a 12 bolt - new leaf springs - good shocks - urethane bushings etc and maybe add some cal tracs

If you have a bb pontiac - just give it a good top quality rebuild - a decent cam -- and maybe for driveability - toss on the FAST EZ EFI - some headers - nice 2 1/2" exhaust.

If you don't have the bb - then just splurge and order a MILDLY built 500 or LESS BB Pontiac - and use the difference for the FAST EZ EFI and headers and Vintage Air or similar serpentine belt set up.

ADD if it doesn't have it already - A/C -- all modern builds should have A/C... it makes the wife want to go - it makes your life nicer - and it increases the value of the car and build. It's easy to add now - and a bitch to add later.

Do a Tremec overdrive transmission - don't cut this corner.

Do disc brakes all the way around. They don't have to be mondo size - and they don't have to be Brembo etc - there are lots of great retro kits out there that will get this car stopped in plenty of time and far better than it did when new.

Do a nice single stage paint job - spend more money on PREP than on paint... the most expensive paint on a poorly prepped body is a total waste! A well prepped laser straight body - with a decent paint job on it is killer - pay more attention to the details of body fitment - door gaps - trunk gaps etc... that is what makes a "quality" car.

DO THE DSE mini tubs... skip this part now - and forever be sorry. With the mini tubs installed - you can run a nice fat tire - and nice looking wheel with modern sizing. To me - this is like the difference between sinks and carpet - you can replace the carpet relatively simply - so no point in spending huge money on it - it gets dirty and dated and is cheap and easy to replace... but how many people do you know rip out their sinks and faucets? So put the money into the stuff you don't "replace"... a hardwood floor is NOT a replacement item - paint on the walls is.

Do the "STRUCTURE" - mini tubs - Engine - Transmission - Rear end - paint and body work. You don't go back to redo these items. Suspension - is a "weekend" project - Brakes are weekend projects - Interiors can be "modified" as money is available... so my advice is - think about what can't be "undone" and redone... if you have to have items hit the cutting room floor. Infrastructure is (to me) - motor/headers - cooling system - steering components (ie - power or rack vs stock etc)... tubs - body - fit and finish - transmission - rear end "housing and axles and gears".

Weekend projects are intake manifolds - carbs - plug wires - valve covers - any and all "dress up" items... not the INTERNALS. Get the suspension "right" - you can upgrade the brakes from a CPP kit to Wilwoods or something like that LATER... Do the dash and it's wiring etc NOW - this is a mess trying to go back and hack it later... Do the Dynamat NOW - you can add electric windows later...

Just "talking here" -- think of it like we were hanging in the garage and blabbing about what you want to do with YOUR car...

Lots of good advice from Greg above.

Another vote of an internal rail shifter. I love my TKO600. Its not anything like driving an old car with a muncie and thats what DougNash / Richmond 5 speed would be like.

I want to know how often Self and Greg have conversations.......:_paranoid

And which one wins when you argue?:lol:

I understand it can be very expensive and is very expensive to build a car. I have researched the prices on the item's I would like to have and they are not cheap. I know everything adds up even the small parts. A while back my builder asked me what I wanted out of my car and what parts I had in mind (engine, rear end, suspension, etc.) He said Ron you know you are talking about a $75 to $80K car. My answer above was $50 PLUS depending on which way I go with certain parts such as an after market sub or use of my stock sub, a somewhat stock/modified 455 or a heavy modified motor, high end wheels or cool budget wheels, etc.

Is it possible to have a plan A with all the parts and upgrades I want and then waver with a plan B with only the parts needed to get me up and running? Or do I need to stick with one or the other? I can build the car I want but it will take me a few extra years to complete it.

Thanks.

Thanks Frank for your Richmond opinion. Looks like TREMEC is the way to go.

$50K PLUS is the low end of the build. And yes I need to set down and put my thoughts and prices on paper. A high end build is not out of my reach (it would just take me longer to build) but it also may not be the right way to go.

Are you able to get certain parts at better prices?

Thanks.

build something that you can afford to do in a reasonable time frame. You don't want to do a long term proiject, too easy to lose interest, constantly changing directions as new things come to the market, plus even though it's cool and modern when designed could be dated by the time it's done.

Build a car that fits the budget and make further changes as money allows. You can actually plan it this way so you're not buying everything twice...........

Jody

Great advise Greg. I agree with you about doing the structure items, tubs, motor, rear end, transmission (TKO of course) paint and body. With these areas I do not want to have to go backwards and redo. An after market sub would be nice but not necessary. Is it possible to get the killer stance without a new sub and 4-link set up? The mini's are a must since the car is stripped down to the shell.

I agree with the weekend projects. All these area's can be dealt with without going backwards.

Actually your advice sounds like the advice my builder gave me a year or two ago (after I told him what I wanted). He said just get a stock 455 add some upgrades with a good cam, heads, carb, etc. and I would have a great motor to play with.

Again, great advice. Sorry to get subject away from transmissions but I am glad we did.

Thanks and please keep the info heading my way.

Thanks for the TKO vote.

I have not bought anything just yet (except for quarters, rockers, used hood, new trunk and floor). I don't want to buy anything new now because like you said something else new will come out before I end up putting on the part. Actually at the moment I just want the metal work stage to begin.

I have heard of people losing interest but I don't think it will happen to me. I have always had a vision of rebuilding my '69 and I made a promise to myself a long time ago to rebuild it one day. I actually wanted to do this project with my father (he was a gear head) after he retired but I waited to late. He passed away a little over 5 years ago.

Thanks for your advice.

Ron --

Opinions are like belly buttons - everybody has one! LOL

I think you've got a good handle on it. Don't forget to write it all down - stick to it. Anyone will tell you when building a car - it's so easy to loose sight of the ball... and it's like Chess... you add one piece - you have to move or redo two... and then you're in the spiral.

STANCE is all about wheels and tire sizes --- and your suspension. It's all a "trade off" - low stance has it's own set of issues like hitting bottom over big driveway humps etc - but nothing beats the look IF you've willing to make the trade off. Ditto big wheels with rubber band tires - it's the old "pea under a mattress"... you'll feel every pot hole - and undulation in the road. But you gain looks and performance... Somewhere in between is the right combo for YOU... what do you want to trade? Stance is so important - if you want a "looker" - and let's face - who doesn't? That's why body fitment and flatness is so important... Stance - nice paint - great body - the right set of tires and wheels -- you got it going on!

Your builder should MOCK UP the stance before you ever buy a single part... You'll see this being shown/done on almost every build posted here. It's SO IMPORTANT... because you can't get there from here if you don't have an address and a map! Set up the look - take pictures - tape them on the car - or near the car - for reference. People will let you "borrow" tires... as long as they're not MOUNTED on wheels - and you don't mess them up... Well - and as long as you're not a pest...

When I'm looking for tires and wheels - I go to shows and when I see something I like - I do the digital picture thing --- take a close up of the size so you don't forget - and the car and the stance. Once you have a firm grip on what you want - show your builder and he should know how to mock it up from there.

A funny 'story' on this "posting pictures on the car"... I had a 36 Ford - real Henry - 5 window - body was done - and in primer... patch panels etc all done... I mocked up the fenders and running boards - hood - grill. Had to tack weld them on using some 1" square tubing... but you have to SEE the car.... so I've got colored quickly printed pictures all over the trunk lid - one showing the color I like - the other a set of wheels I liked - a couple more of similar cars with the stance... one with the door handles on - and another with it slicked... I pushed this car around in the shed for a year... changing the pictures with updated versions as I found them. Now I'm getting closer to having the car in my mind - but - BIG BUTT - I'm really trying to make the 36 five window into a 37 three window with a chopped top. I wanted to change the hood - the trunk - the 5 windows gone and so that was chop and section the lid etc.... FINALLY I realized I didn't want to build the 36 --- I wanted a 37 ! So -- sold the 36 and shopped 'til I found a suitable 37 --- and NOW I'm happy. Sometimes you just have to "live with it" awhile before it dawns on you what it is that you really want. :rofl: :rofl:

Yea, I like the killer stance with the right wheel choice. I do not like the skinny tires that a lot of people run. I want the car with a good stance but l don't want to have to worry about bottoming out wherever I go.

I have seen on this site how everyone mocks up their stance. I told my builder awhile back that I want the stance mocked up as well (and even the car mocked up after metal work and before paint to make sure all body panels fit correctly.)

I have taken many photos of cars at shows and cruise in's. The photo's give me future idea's of what I want. (wheel combo, engine bay color, body color, interior, etc) I also have many car magazines with more good idea's for my car. I have gone to shows with my builder showing him what I like which is a huge plus. At work on my computer I have downloaded several hundred car photo's to get examples also. I actually like the look and stance and even the wheels of Todd Akes '69.

Funny story about your '37.

Thanks.

It looks like you've already decided against the Richmond but I'd like to add a few things for anyone that might debate this later. And it's good general info about gear sizes.

I was looking at a 69 Firebird that had a Richmond 5 speed and 3.55 rear gears. That would make for 3500 rpms at 75 mph, definitely not acceptable. A TKO 600 with a .68 5th gear would be closer to 2500 rpms at 75, so that's much better. To turn 2500 rpm @ 75 with a 1:1 5th gear you'd need about a 2.40:1 rear gear and I don't even know where to buy anything numerically lower than 3.08, so gears would cost more and offset the savings of a Richmond 5 speed for anyone debating the two.

Richmond advertises that they made a 1:1 5 speed because it's quieter. At a 1:1 ratio you can design a trans to lock the input and output shafts rather than spinning gears to get an over drive, making less noise. I've never noticed an over drive trans to be too noisy though so that's a pointless way to do it in my eyes. To make up for no over drive they gear the whole thing lower so you can use taller rear gears and still have similar gearing overall and low cruise rpm, but like I said, where do you find 2:40:1 gears? Also having a 3.28:1 1st gear is part of what makes the Richmond weeker. To have a higher ratio the two gears need to be further apart in size making for less contact between the two, making for a weeker pair of gears. This is why the TKO 500 with it's 3.27:1 1st gear is weeker than the TKO 600 with it's 2.87:1 1st gear.

The Richmond was part of the reason I didn't buy the dude's car. I would've had to spend quite a bit to change that and a few other things and he wouldn't come down on price enough.

Like Greg said, run a poll and you will get 100 answers for TKO and Tremec, but 1 or 2 at best for Richmond.

I have the Richmond 6spd in my car and its a decent trans. Many times the shifting problems that people experience are self inflicted. This can also be said about the TKO-600 that many people complain about with shifting into 3rd gear. The Richmond uses an older style synchro design that needs lube with MORE friction. I initially was running GL5 spec synthetic and the transmission shifted very poorly. I later switched to some GL4 conventional fluid and the shifting improved tremendously. The Long shifter is very precise when it is adjusted correctly.

As for the gear ratio issue, the Richmond has better ratios by far. I would run a 2.56 gear in a Pontiac with the Richmond 5spd. This will give you great highway cruising RPM and have enough gear to get you out of the hole, given the 3.28 first gear. One thing that many people don't consider is driveshaft speed. Using a trans with a 1:1 first gear and a higher rear end ratio (low number) will reduce the driveshaft speed compared to a lower rear end ratio (higher number) and an overdrive transmission. Food for thought.

Andrew

Well Flash - we have one of the two votes you predicted!!! :rofl: :rofl:

I did not vote for anything. I just pointed out an angle that no one has mentioned. There are many things to consider when choosing a transmission. Driveshaft speed is a very legitimate concern. There is a reason why Pontiac chose different gear ratios for the 2004-2006 GTO. There is also a reason why 4th gen f-bodies were never offered with any ratio above 3.42.

Andrew

Pontiac Firebird -- in this year (1969) used a GM - BOP rear end - the lowest gear set I found at Randy's Ring and Pinion was a 3:36

The gear set you used (2:56) is offered - as long as he has a completely different rear end - and was used from 1970... so not compatible with the carrier in his (assuming he has stock rear end) car.

Using the Richmond he was asking about - would have him turning 3000 rpm's at a whopping 69 mph - using an assumed tire diameter of 26 inches.

Plain and simple - there's no compelling argument one could make for using this transmission given his intended use. We weren't discussing a Richmond 6 speed - only the Richmond 5 speed - typically called a 4 + 1. Since he's starting off with a fresh build - "we" (most of the respondents here) were advising to go with an OVERDRIVE transmission for best all around drivability - gas milage - and fun factor.

You sure can talk, but you don't listen at all, do you?

Andrew

I listened -- read your post TWICE -- your facts just don't hold much water. You are recommending a gear ratio that doesn't exist for his application... so your facts are based on erroneous data.

As for driveline critical speed... a typical 3.5" mild steel driveline of 50" length has a critical speed exceeding 9000 rpms...

So if you crank in your hypothetical 2:56 gear set - and a 1:1 final drive - using a 26" diameter tire... He'd have to exceed 300 MPH. Pretty impressive - but hardly worth discussing.

Using an overdrive trans - as above with a 3:73 -- he'd only have to exceed 150 MPH to achieve the magic critical speed number... again - I'm thinking he's not going to be running the car that much at these speeds. If he is - he can order a driveline that will handle it with ease.

:cheers:

Using this same logic - ya think there's a reason that Pontiac didn't use a RICHMOND? :rofl:

I see you are still trying to pick a fight, and that's OK. You obviously had a bad experience with the Richmond transmission and now you are on a mission to enlighten the masses. Kudos to you.

Shifting quality can be effected by any number of things. Certainly the design of the transmission internals is important, as is the design and adjustment of the shifter. The other factors that are often overlooked are fluid type and clutch adjustment. I mentioned before that the Richmond requires a lubricant with MORE friction. This allows the synchros to have more "bite" which improves the shift quality tremendously. It is also vital that the air gap on the clutch is properly set. Any drag on the clutch disk during a shift will make the shifting feel "hard."

Every transmission has pros and cons. The weight of each pro and con is very subjective. Some people want ultimate strength. Others want shift quality. For others, a quiet transmission is most important. We are blessed to have such a great number of available transmission options on the market today. 25 years ago it was simple. Do you want a wide ratio Muncie or a close ratio Muncie? If strength was more important, then the M22 was king, but you were stuck with a 2.20 first gear.

Here are a list of pros and cons regarding the Richmond.

Pros.

Great gear selection http://www.richmondgear.com/07pdfs/RG24.pdf
No major transmission tunnel surgery required (big issue for a-bodies)
Easy to service
Great parts availability (most parts stocked by Jegs and Summit)
Relatively light weight (especially compared to T56)

Cons
Ultimate strength (although I have yet to see a documented case of major carnage)
Shift quality (much of this is user induced due to poor lubricant selection and clutch adjustment)
Price
External shifter design (although this can be a pro when you consider the ease of adjustability compared to an internal rail design)

My point is that every product has pros and cons that must be examined in the context of the application. To make blanket statements like "All Richmond transmissions are junk," is just immature and naive.

Andrew

I'll stop short of calling the Richmond "crap", but after owning two of them and driving several of their 5 and 6 speed trannies, I'd never buy another. I just think the TKO's and T56's are better in pretty much every way, and can be found used for the same or less than this particular used Richmond.

Jody

Andrew -

I was not trying to pick any fight... and I have 1100 posts on this board that would prove that fact. My "fight" is with facts that don't jive...

I understand what you're saying about the Richmond transmissions - adjustment - and gear oil (same holds true for posi rear ends BTW). But I'll return to the original post - which was "should he buy a Richmond 5 speed". And the overwhelming advice - from people who know - was ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Your post was defending your choice of a Richmond 6 speed... a completely different transmission... Yes - the argument that Richmond has some nice choices for gear spread can be made. But that is really kind of a mute point for a street cruiser unless there was a reason for needing the tighter gearing for less rpm drop. Your defense of using the Richmond 5 speed was based on a gear ratio that doesn't exist as a choice... and then you sprinkled in critical speed of the driveline... Which is also useless info, unless it was based on some facts that would support the reason for tossing it in. In other words - if he should choose to use the 2:56 gear, and was going to spin his motor to 7000 rpms, and is trying to set the land speed record at Bonneville... Then, yes, he should watch out for driveline critical speed problems which would occur at 6000 rpms with 26" tires and 300 mph. I was merely showing that those issues aren't supported by the facts - so are really not part of the discussion. There is support of the fact that the Richmond 5 speed is a notchy shifting transmission. Anyone that has shifted one would not argue that point. Are they road worthy and beefy... sure.

I am not arguing your choice of a Richmond 6 speed either. Nor would I argue whether or not it can/could be a good choice... Just be FACTUAL. If not, then expect to get your azz handed to you. These forums need to be factual - and informed - otherwise we get a bunch of yahoos on here espousing useless rumor and speculation about what could be because their buddy once was going to do it... So lets kiss and make up. We all want to learn things - I just don't want to lean things that aren't factual/useful.

:lateral: :cheers: